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Atari v Commodore


stevelanc

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emkay, maybe read the posts you are replying to ?

 

oswald: "nobody stopped a8 coders to write lots of 3d games to wash off the poor c64 off the game market. still they produced more 2d games than 3d even when c64 didnt existed."

 

emkay: That's caused by the fact that they tried to make C64 stuff on the A8, instead of making the A8 stuff more perfect.

 

 

its endlessly funny that you blame c64 for a8 programmers not making good enough games. there must have been a c64 maffia or something :D

 

also: game programming targets money and never perfection. especially true to the 80s.

 

 

And People who "defended" the Atari, made the mistake to reach C64 features then...

 

sure, they even made it before the c64 was there, how couldnt they when it was already there.

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its endlessly funny that you blame c64 for a8 programmers not making good enough games. there must have been a c64 maffia or something :D

 

It's funny... ironic funny

 

also: game programming targets money and never perfection. especially true to the 80s.

 

 

And People who "defended" the Atari, made the mistake to reach C64 features then...

 

sure, they even made it before the c64 was there, how couldnt they when it was already there.

 

?

 

The games changed clearly after the C64 dominated the Home "PC" market.

The 3D development was generally turned down since 1983 and, look when Wolfenstein 3D was released and when the C64 was declared "dead".... 1992-94

And look how the C64 manipulated the US-European computerworld. Seeing the Amiga's far superior soundchip, able to play real music, it was turned into a SID-like sound player. Not to forget Turrican (2) on the AMIGA, that was restricted to the slow CPU of the C64 in gameplay...

Edited by emkay
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archon & bruce lee are equally good. there's hardly any difference. slightly different colors, and different but similarly primitive sounds.

 

 

>No, Oswald isn't biased at all<

 

if this doesn qualifies as slightly then I dont know what:

 

atari:

bruce_lee_3.gif

c64:

brucelee.gif

 

atari

archon_start_large.gif

 

c64:

archon_01.gif

 

this made me realize, c64 archon has more detailed "chess" figures

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archon & bruce lee are equally good. there's hardly any difference. slightly different colors, and different but similarly primitive sounds.

 

 

>No, Oswald isn't biased at all<

 

if this doesn qualifies as slightly then I dont know what:

 

atari:

bruce_lee_3.gif

c64:

brucelee.gif

 

atari

archon_start_large.gif

 

c64:

archon_01.gif

 

this made me realize, c64 archon has more detailed "chess" figures

 

 

that's why i have posted the intro with the "free falling " freefall logo... ;)

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lol... I'm getting quite the enjoyment from this thread... as an owner/user of both real hardware and emulators, I like them both. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. This thread is the equivalent of debating which is the best takeout: chinese food or pizza? They're BOTH equally good. You can have good pizza/chinese food, bad pizza/chinese food... but it's still pizza/chinese food...

 

From a coding point of view... I am definitely in the Atari camp... It's just easier to program an Atari IMO...

Edited by dwhyte
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The games changed clearly after the C64 dominated the Home "PC" market.

The 3D development was generally turned down since 1983 and, look when Wolfenstein 3D was released and when the C64 was declared "dead".... 1992-94

And look how the C64 manipulated the US-European computerworld. Seeing the Amiga's far superior soundchip, able to play real music, it was turned into a SID-like sound player. Not to forget Turrican (2) on the AMIGA, that was restricted to the slow CPU of the C64 in gameplay...

 

the c64 has more 3d games than the atari 8bits.

the atari had more 2d than 3d games before the c64.

given these I dont see how "lack" of 3d games on the c64 reduced nr of 3d games on the atari or anywhere else. there were shitloads of 3d games before wolfenstein also. what are you trying to say with that?

 

- how many amiga games do you know of which sounds like sid or worse ? :)

- so turrican 1 was not restricted but 2 was ? well if once they could get it correctly, blame the weaker programmer of the sequel. similarly I could say c64 was restricted by the pmgs of the atari by bruce lee, blue max, boulder dash, etc. there are even basic pet games on the c64, how restricting that is! horrible guilt! :D

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lol... I'm getting quite the enjoyment from this thread... as an owner/user of both real hardware and emulators, I like them both. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. This thread is the equivalent of debating which is the best takeout: chinese food or pizza? They're BOTH equally good. You can have good pizza/chinese food, bad pizza/chinese food... but it's still pizza/chinese food...

 

Pizza is better, that old cliche about wanting another Chinese an hour later is true! =-)

 

From a coding point of view... I am definitely in the Atari camp... It's just easier to program an Atari IMO...

 

i found that the Atari was lovely to start with because the display list, DLI and WSYNC in particular make things easier to do but, for the games i like coding, i always seem to be bumping against limitations with the Atari earlier than i do with the C64. Doesn't stop me liking it, though.

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Oswald,

 

I think you are being delibertatley obtuse...

 

"well, there's not much sense saying this or that game is better because you played them on this or that machine first."

 

Of course there is, games are EXPERIENCES, like a movie or an music CD - where you heard that song, who you were with when you saw that film, those relative and personal qualities color your opinion of the material - same with games!

 

"this is the area were comparisons cant be made"

 

On one level I disagree, but I conceed that it is difficult to be objective - that is why there is little or no point having this argument/debate/discussion - because I will not be able to seperate the one from the other, and neither do you - it's the human condition.

 

"comparisons can be mode on nr of colors, speed, etc. exactly vice versa as you put it." - but to what end, a count of colors does not equte to the quality of the game, perhpas an overall use of color (or sound or animation) - that is the important aspect, is the art/game/audio design good, fulfilling, rewarding, clear etc etc...

 

(one of your first posts claimed we cant compare the machines empirically, well yes we can just like games, what we cant compare is subjective opinions) - and BETTER is a subjective value, and therefore in the context of this thread valid, please try to remeber what this thread is trying to answer for the original poster - "Does anybody have any views on where any titles were launched on both Atari and Commodore - and the Atari version is the better of the two?"

 

He does not ask which is more powerful, has more colors or more sound voices, he asks which games are better on the Atari, and subjective or not I stand by my list - and I acknowledge the fact others may disagree, and any attempt to turn this into a bit-race fails to answer the question posed...

 

post-579-1227885208_thumb.png

C64

 

post-579-1227885213_thumb.png

Atari 800

 

It may be small differences, but for me Bruce Lee is the lower image, not the upper one, so I find it "better" on the Atari...

 

sTeVE

Edited by Jetboot Jack
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He does not ask which is more powerful, has more colors or more sound voices, he asks which games are better on the Atari, and subjective or not I stand by my list - and I acknowledge the fact others may disagree, and any attempt to turn this into a bit-race fails to answer the question posed...

 

i don't think the question can be answered to be honest... thinking about it, had the original question been more open to cover any game on both, it still wouldn't have helped but we'd have more to cover.

Edited by TMR
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I think you are being delibertatley obtuse...

 

stop with the insults. thanks.

 

"well, there's not much sense saying this or that game is better because you played them on this or that machine first."

 

Of course there is, games are EXPERIENCES, like a movie or an music CD - where you heard that song, who you were with when you saw that film, those relative and personal qualities color your opinion of the material - same with games!

 

so I have played it first on c64, you on A8, I say c64 is better coz played it first on it, you vice versa. it doesnt make sense when you would like to compare games. debate on which one is better. and I would like to do that.

 

it is difficult to be objective - that is why there is little or no point having this argument/debate/discussion - because I will not be able to seperate the one from the other, and neither do you - it's the human condition.

 

atleast I try to be objective, while you are pushing how important subjective opinion is - and _that_ makes no point when comparing games.

 

a count of colors does not equte to the quality of the game, perhpas an overall use of color (or sound or animation) - that is the important aspect, is the art/game/audio design good, fulfilling, rewarding, clear etc etc...

 

sure it does. if you would make 2 versions of the same game the nicer one with more colors would qualify as better. what doesnt equte the quality of the game is on what machine you played it first.

 

- and BETTER is a subjective value, and therefore in the context of this thread valid, please try to remeber what this thread is trying to answer for the original poster

 

as you are debating with me, its irrevelant what the first poster wrote or asked.

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Perhaps not, and actually I agree but a game like Koronis Rift relies on the hardware for a key aspect of it's play - the believability of the depth cued world so the quality of the expereince is dictated by the machine running it, and therefore I would posit the A8 version is subjectivley better:

 

post-579-1227885754_thumb.png

C64

 

post-579-1227885758_thumb.png

Atari

 

sTeVE

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post-579-1227885208_thumb.png

C64

 

post-579-1227885213_thumb.png

Atari 800

 

It may be small differences, but for me Bruce Lee is the lower image, not the upper one, so I find it "better" on the Atari...

 

sTeVE

 

So the C64 version plays differently? I see small differences in graphics, but how does the gameplay compare? I ask as I've never played the C64 version... Maybe later on today I'll give it a go...

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Perhaps not, and actually I agree but a game like Koronis Rift relies on the hardware for a key aspect of it's play - the believability of the depth cued world so the quality of the expereince is dictated by the machine running it, and therefore I would posit the A8 version is subjectivley better:

 

I'd say its objectively better. faster, more layers, and more shades of the layers while moving.

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So the C64 version plays differently? I see small differences in graphics, but how does the gameplay compare? I ask as I've never played the C64 version... Maybe later on today I'll give it a go...

 

I have tried both, and even the glitches look to be the same: fex. bruce flickers when it grabs the ladder with only one hand, etc.

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Take the Top lists of Lemon64 and Atarimania (user rankings) of games that are common on both systems.

 

In a few cases the C64 version is superior. A few more you can't make a distinction.

 

But in the majority, the Atari version is better either due to gameplay (sometimes speed related), or better colour ability.

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8.70 Ultima IV: Quest o... 81 - comparable

 

This tells you if there is an Atari version it is at least comparable. Head-to-head...

 

CU

Irgendwer

 

I say it every year when this topic comes up.

The C64 is better until someone goes back in time and gives Ultima IV for the Atari some damn music!

After that I'm fine with the Atari being best.

Seriously. THIS single event made me go out and buy a C64 (I had been borrowing the family C64 from time to time until then - I was happy with the 1200XL). THIS single event made me push the 1200XL off to one side and it was never my primary computer after that.

I know they could not have music and keep the game under 48K, but keeping the game under 48K was the wrong choice for me. You can argue that this isn't a technical limitation, but either way, the game came out far worse on the Atari.

Edited by FastRobPlus
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post-579-1227885208_thumb.png

C64

 

post-579-1227885213_thumb.png

Atari 800

 

It may be small differences, but for me Bruce Lee is the lower image, not the upper one, so I find it "better" on the Atari...

Btw, good example of the sprite system:

 

A8: uses all players and all missiles for those 3 sprites. Cannot use 3rd OR color due to one color being black so bruce and the fat guy have to use 2 colors only.

 

C64: sprite system is heavily underused. 3 of the 8 sprites are used, in those 3 sprites not even 3 colors or full size are used.

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Btw, good example of the sprite system:

 

A8: uses all players and all missiles for those 3 sprites. Cannot use 3rd OR color due to one color being black so bruce and the fat guy have to use 2 colors only.

 

C64: sprite system is heavily underused. 3 of the 8 sprites are used, in those 3 sprites not even 3 colors or full size are used.

 

 

not to talk about that the ninja can slide on its back in the c64 version, why on a8 this doesnt happens because the pmgs are not wide enough to make that possible. but ofcourse atari sprites are better, and bruce lee is better, yaddayadda.

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Perhaps not, and actually I agree but a game like Koronis Rift relies on the hardware for a key aspect of it's play - the believability of the depth cued world so the quality of the expereince is dictated by the machine running it, and therefore I would posit the A8 version is subjectivley better:

 

post-579-1227885754_thumb.png

C64

 

post-579-1227885758_thumb.png

Atari

 

sTeVE

 

 

3 times of visual colours, 3 depth layers instead of 2, and softly fading mountains vs. popping in mountains is not only subjective ;)

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