Hooked on 8-bit carts

[Kr0tki]

You have most probably got it from Jerzy Sobola's website. It's a pirate hack that allows to load the BASIC XE extensions (normally stored as BASICXE.OSS on the original Extension Disk) either from disk (now the file must be named BASICXE.EXT) or from tape. It's a prate release.

 

Anyway, here's an update.

Edited September 4, 2011 by Kr0tki

[Kr0tki]

Could anyone post photos of the Space Invaders cartridge PCB?

 

The known ROM image of Space Invaders has 8 KB with the first 4 KB being all $FFs (unused). I'm suspecting that the cartridge contains only a 4 KB ROM chip. If that was true, it would mean that the 8 KB image is an overdump.

 

So I'd like to ask one person who's willing to take the risk :-) to open a Space Invaders cartridge (the original brown version - it's possible to disassemble the case non-destructively), pull the circuit board out and take photos of its both sides (make sure that the traces are clearly visible and not covered by the soldered parts, if possible). Maybe such photos would help in resolving the issue.

 

(Several other ROM images also might be overdumps for the same reason. The full list is: 3-D Tic-Tac-Toe, Alien Ambush, Alpha Shield, Atlantis, Basketball, Carnival Massacre, Claim Jumper, Computer Chess, Computer War, Demon Attack, Educational Master System Cartridge (both Atari & Dorsett), Fantastic Voyage, Fast Eddie, Final Orbit, Firebird, Kaboom!, Monkey Wrench I, Space Invaders, Spider City, Squish 'Em!, Submarine Commander, Super Breakout, Telelink I, Turmoil, Video Easel, Worm War 1.)

[FULS]

Could anyone post photos of the Space Invaders cartridge PCB?

 

Hi Kr0tki,

 

Your right. Space Invaders is a 4k rom on an 8k cartridge board.

Technically speaking though, when you insert the cartridge, it is reserving 8k of rom in the Atari computer.

The Display List starts at 9C20 with the Cart inserted.

If you go with a 4k rom, it would be nice if the Emulators would support it.

 

 

 

Thanks,

Doug

 

Edited September 5, 2011 by FULS

[+Mitch]

Yes, same issue with some 12K vs 16K ROM images as well. I'm not sure if they have one 16K ROM chip or an 8K chip and 4K chip. Since I don't believe any emulators or flash carts support the odd sizes (4K and 12K) it's probably worth noting in the ROM analysis doc but not changing the ROMs themselves.

 

Mitch

[Kr0tki]

Thanks for the photos. Your help is always appreciated.

 

To be honest, I'm still having doubts. This chip might be a 2332 mask ROM, ie. 4KB and it would explain why reading from $A000-$AFFF gives the $FF value. However, it could also be a half-empty 2364 ROM, which is pin-compatible with the 2332. (That's a design feature of the 23xx series.)

 

But, since AFAIK wasting half of the 2364 would be cost-ineffective back in 1980, I think it's safe to assume that Atari went the cheap way and that this chip is a 4KB ROM. The same for other 4KB early Atari releases (3-D Tic-Tac-Toe, Basketball, Computer Chess, Super Breakout, Video Easel) - they probably use the same setup.

 

Then there are two Atari cartridges that only have 2 KB of meaningful data - they are Educational Master System Cartridge and Telelink I. You've posted an EMSC photo earlier, it uses the same board design and also contains a chip in only one socket. Here the situation is similar - the chip might be a 2116, a half-empty 2332, or a 3/4-empty 2364, but I'm going to assume that they used the smallest capacity possible.

 

So, this leaves us with the following cartridges to check:

 

- Educational Master System Cartridge (the later one, with the 1983 copyright on the title screen) - 2 KB, suspected to contain a 2716 ROM;

- Alien Ambush, Alpha Shield, Atlantis, Demon Attack, Fantastic Voyage, Fast Eddie, Final Orbit, Firebird, Kaboom!, Monkey Wrench I, Spider City, Squish 'Em!, Turmoil, Worm War 1 - 4 KB, suspected to contain a 2732;

- Carnival Massacre, Claim Jumper, Computer War, Frogger II, Submarine Commander - 12 KB, suspected to contain one 2732 and one 2764. Frogger II is notable because it has the $FF memory hole at $A000-AFFF and not at the start of the ROM area.

 

Photos of ROM chips in these cartridges should be more informative - Atari had a habit to mark the chips with their own codes, but other manufacturers probably were leaving the original markings intact. (I've checked that my Kickback contains a ROM marked 2364.)

 

EDIT:

Since I don't believe any emulators or flash carts support the odd sizes (4K and 12K) it's probably worth noting in the ROM analysis doc but not changing the ROMs themselves.

The last test version of Altirra already supports 2KB and 4KB ROM images, and I'm working on adding support to Atari800 right now.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Kr0tki

[+Mitch]

I checked a PacMan cart and it uses the same board as above but it has both sockets filled. Since PacMan is an 8K game. I suspect the chips are 4K each. The 16K Atari games use a different board that also uses two chips.

 

Lots of good info here if you haven't seen it before.

 

Mitch

[FULS]

Hi,

Here are some pictures of the innards of a "Computer War" cart.

I'm using Omnimon in my Atari 800xl for these tests.

When the cart is inserted into Atari Computer, the Display List starts at 7C20.

Locations 8000 to 8FFF are filled with "FF"'s

The game code starts at location 9000.

So the board must be 16k. The Game code is 12k.

No actual typical Roms in this board. Just black epoxy glue protecting/hiding something.

 

___________Front______________________Back

 

Thanks,Doug

[Kr0tki]

I checked a PacMan cart and it uses the same board as above but it has both sockets filled. Since PacMan is an 8K game. I suspect the chips are 4K each. The 16K Atari games use a different board that also uses two chips.

Several later Atari 8K games also use the 16K board, but with only one chip. For example Galaxian.

 

On a side note: By looking at my Galaxian PCB, it seem that it has the RD4 line shorted, even though it's only a 8K cart. I can't check it right now, but it would mean that this cartridge disables RAM in the whole $8000-$BFFF area while using only the upper 8K.

 

Lots of good info here

Can't use that, I'm on Linux.

 

 

 

Here are some pictures of the innards of a "Computer War" cart.

Thanks. I didn't know that they revised their PCB design. The covered parts are definitely two ROMs and a resistor, but that's all I'm able to tell. Not a nice surprise :-( It's notable that Mitch's dump of Computer War differs in that the $8000-8FFF area is a copy of $9000-$9FFF. It's possible that Mitch's unit has a different PCB.

 

FULS, I don't think that we'll gain any new knowledge by checking position of the display list, at least in the case of 4K and 12K cartridges. The cartridge area must start either at $8000 or at $A000 - such is the hardware limitation.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Kr0tki

[+Mitch]

Lots of good info here

Can't use that, I'm on Linux.

 

 

Whoops, I fixed the link now.

 

Mitch

[FULS]

Hi,

I dumped 10 more carts that I purchased.

7 are "Proto/Repros" from Best Electronics. There a reliable company with super fast shipping.

 

 

 

 

Jawbreaker 2 lost its original label.

 

Here are the 10 dumps.

10 Atari Carts.zip

[Kr0tki]

Neat, thanks. Alien Ambush, Jawbreaker II and Sea Chase can now be marked as verified. (The others can't since they are protos.) Notably, your Superman III, Super Pac-Man and Berzerk images are different than the ones already known.

 

Meanwhile, I've added some Chilean cartridges to the list.

[russg]

Is there a need for 3D-TIC-TAC-TOE pictures?

[Kr0tki]

Sorry for the late reply. As I said earlier, Atari marked the chips with their own codes so I doubt the photo would be valuable; but I sure would like to see the pictures, if only for "entertainment purposes"

[Gunstar]

So, would it be possible to make dual/multi-game cartridges with the same boards? Burn 4 and 8K games onto eeproms that can replace the current roms, with a menu system or something? Maybe with the carts like Space Invaders that has only one rom and two sockets, that a game and menu system could go on a eeprom in the empty socket to let you choose between games?

[Kr0tki]

Yes. Of course, you would need to heavily modify the games' binaries to make them work from a different memory area, but it's theoretically doable.

[russg]

Here's pics of 3D Tic Tac Toe

[PitfallJones]

Hi There Folks,

 

It's been a while since I've updated my Atari List.

 

A big thanks to 'chrislynn5' who recently sent me a picture of 'BearJam' - man I've been searching for a picture of this cart for literally years - it must be pretty rare.

 

The rom list you've complied is terrific - I especially like the reference column - very useful.

 

You can see my updated list of carts here:

 

List of 800 carts

 

I've also added the latest GR8 releases.

 

I've got nowhere near as many as on the new master list - but a lot of those listed seem unobtainable.

 

Actually I'm pretty sure 'Cosmic Tunnels' and 'Da'Fuzz' can't exist as original carts as no proof of their existance has appeared since I started my list in 2007!

 

If you're interested my original thread is here: link

 

- PJ

 

P.S. How do you attach files (like pictures) to these posts? - it's been so long I can't find the option in this editor....

[Roydea6]

P.S. How do you attach files (like pictures) to these posts? - it's been so long I can't find the option in this editor....

Chose More options and you will get this screen.

 

 

USE the attach file to upload file from your drive.

and then use the add post link.

[www.atarimania.com]

Sorry but stating something doesn't exist because you didn't see it since you started the list borders on ridiculous...

 

Cosmic Tunnels is known to be a unique prototype.

 

Several cartridges of Da' Fuzz with labels were sent as review copies to magazines. A number of proto Lifespan cartridges with labels were also produced.

 

The Concepts for Darren games may be one-of-a-kind but the cartridges do exist, how would we have dumped them otherwise? The labels are red, pretty amateurish and have the address of the "publisher" on them. My guess is that they were just made for a particular school or school district by a local programmer...

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

[qix_maniac]

Hi There Folks,

 

It's been a while since I've updated my Atari List.

 

A big thanks to 'chrislynn5' who recently sent me a picture of 'BearJam' - man I've been searching for a picture of this cart for literally years - it must be pretty rare.

 

The rom list you've complied is terrific - I especially like the reference column - very useful.

 

You can see my updated list of carts here:

 

List of 800 carts

 

I've also added the latest GR8 releases.

 

I've got nowhere near as many as on the new master list - but a lot of those listed seem unobtainable.

 

Actually I'm pretty sure 'Cosmic Tunnels' and 'Da'Fuzz' can't exist as original carts as no proof of their existance has appeared since I started my list in 2007!

 

If you're interested my original thread is here: link

 

- PJ

 

P.S. How do you attach files (like pictures) to these posts? - it's been so long I can't find the option in this editor....

 

Thanks for updating your page PJ !!! Can I suggest updating the page with rare variations of certain cartridges? For example the K-razy Kritters Atari 800 cart you show is the common CBS version not the K*byte brown/tan version...the difference in price between those 2 cartridges is about $10 for CBS version and $200 for the K*byte version if you go by ebay prices!

 

Another example is Astrochase by Parker Brothers is very common say $10 max for cart...compared to FirstStar AstroChase which would bring you $100+ as well...

Edited January 9, 2012 by qix_maniac

[w1k]

i have some carts, but no games..

[PitfallJones]

@rdea6: Thanks for the info - here's Bearjam:

 

@atarimania

Hey man this is 2012 - if something doesn't exist on the internet it's not real :-)

 

But seriously I have been making a little effort myself - over in a period of more than four years, the whole of the internet, Google, eBay, all the local shops across SoCal and all the CGE's I've been to have failed to produce one iota of evidence of their existence. (On the other hand ... the sights I have seen - like a Cuttle Cart for instance - I never thought I'd see one of those in the flesh!) For Bearjam however there were lots of 'hints' it existed even before it turned up.

 

If neither got a commercial release maybe I should move them from the main list into the prototypes section - I just noticed that even the Atari Dumping Project didn't find any verified dumps of these two - so that's saying they've been MIA since 1998!

 

Anyway if there is a sole owner of 'Cosmic Tunnels' out there perhaps he would like to say hello in these forums and post a pic.

 

@qix_manic

Nice idea - I've found pictures of those alternatives you mention - are there any more?

 

@w1k

If you have something interesting - post some pics!

[qix_maniac]

@rdea6: Thanks for the info - here's Bearjam:

 

@atarimania

Hey man this is 2012 - if something doesn't exist on the internet it's not real :-)

 

But seriously I have been making a little effort myself - over in a period of more than four years, the whole of the internet, Google, eBay, all the local shops across SoCal and all the CGE's I've been to have failed to produce one iota of evidence of their existence. (On the other hand ... the sights I have seen - like a Cuttle Cart for instance - I never thought I'd see one of those in the flesh!) For Bearjam however there were lots of 'hints' it existed even before it turned up.

 

If neither got a commercial release maybe I should move them from the main list into the prototypes section - I just noticed that even the Atari Dumping Project didn't find any verified dumps of these two - so that's saying they've been MIA since 1998!

 

Anyway if there is a sole owner of 'Cosmic Tunnels' out there perhaps he would like to say hello in these forums and post a pic.

 

@qix_manic

Nice idea - I've found pictures of those alternatives you mention - are there any more?

 

@w1k

If you have something interesting - post some pics!

 

Yes, there are plenty more. I'll get you a list and send you some pics...PM me your email address and I'll zip them up

Edited January 10, 2012 by qix_maniac

[www.atarimania.com]

Now I see where the confusion lies... You were referring to the existence of some programs as commercial titles. I didn't even notice you had Cosmic Tunnels, Da' Fuzz and Lifespan as "originals". Of course, they should be moved to the protos section.

 

I still don't get why Mr. Do's Castle is listed as a proto. It may exist as such in the US - where the program was only ever distributed on disk - but your picture shows the official Canadian release. Strange label but that's how it was sold.

 

Also, Des Chiffres et des Lettres is a game, not a utility.

 

There are numerous cartridges you still need to add!

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

[qix_maniac]

Now I see where the confusion lies... You were referring to the existence of some programs as commercial titles. I didn't even notice you had Cosmic Tunnels, Da' Fuzz and Lifespan as "originals". Of course, they should be moved to the protos section.

 

I still don't get why Mr. Do's Castle is listed as a proto. It may exist as such in the US - where the program was only ever distributed on disk - but your picture shows the official Canadian release. Strange label but that's how it was sold.

 

Also, Des Chiffres et des Lettres is a game, not a utility.

 

There are numerous cartridges you still need to add!

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

 

I agree you have tons of carts missing!!! hopefully members here can contribute some pics too. I know someone had a cart named KISS ...have no idea if it's a game :-) or I'm afraid to ask!