ColecoVision Flashback System

[SoulBlazer]

I have some mixed feelings about the Coleco game list. There are a few gems, but they are missing a handful of games I would have considered must-haves.

 

Ah well I'll still buy it I think.

Sad to say it's all due to licences, and what companies are willing to let other companies have and for how much, and a whole complicated mess. I'm sure AtGames tried. I'm sure they wanted to include as many of the classic and big selling games that they could. But it wasn't possible.

 

My main hope with both the Coleco and Intelivision Flashbacks is that the selection of games on them will be good enough to convience people to buy them. Not the collectors and the big fans here -- the casual public. The person who is in the store one day, sees this on the shelf, and has a reaction that goes either of these two ways:

 

1) "Oh hey, I remember that! I had one of those as a kid! It would be fun to play X or Y again....I'll give it a shot. It's only $40"

2) "My kids might like this! It's simple games and cheaper then a Xbox or whatever. Will keep them amused for a while."

 

Then if the sales are strong enough and with more money in the war coffers AtGames can try again with a version 2.0 to include more games.

[SoulBlazer]

 

I honestly don't know what the counts are for any of them, or what's included beyond a few of the titles. I'll find out more when I get the review units some time this month,.

I thought I read 15 included with the unit and another 15 with the Sam's Club one....if not you, Keith maybe? Or someone else? I'd swear I read that somewhere....oh well, thanks.

[Bill Loguidice]

I thought I read 15 included with the unit and another 15 with the Sam's Club one....if not you, Keith maybe? Or someone else? I'd swear I read that somewhere....oh well, thanks.

 

It's quite possible, but a quick search in my records didn't turn anything up. I'll shoot off a quick email and try to get some hard info to verify.

[SoulBlazer]

 

It's quite possible, but a quick search in my records didn't turn anything up. I'll shoot off a quick email and try to get some hard info to verify.

Thanks Bill, as always, for your hard work.

 

In the Intelivision Flashback thread I made educated guess on the included overlays for that one, but I have no idea which games might 'require' overlays for the Coleco. I don't have any experience first hand with the system.

[Atariboy]

Sonic 3 requires a save file. Assuming the ATGames clones use embedded program, there may not be flash memory present to record save files. However, their outright lack of save support via SD card is a glaring omission.

That may be it, but they should put it on there anyways. Sonic & Knuckles is every bit as long and it's here (Piggybacking Sonic 3 to play the combined game is the only way to save with S&K since it lacked onboard save capabilities). A disclaimer in the documentation (Or better yet, on-screen notice as it's booting up) explaining that Sonic 3's original save function is inoperable due to technical difficulties, or even an editing job to eliminate it would be preferable to just leaving this iconic game out, in my opinion.

 

Of course I have numerous ways to play this classic game so its loss is meaningless to me even if I was planning to purchase one of this year's Sega products. But to the casual impulse buyer, many are going to notice this conspicuous absence.

 

At least, as someone said, it's easily enough rectified on both products for the casual that just has to play it on their new AtGames Sega system.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Atariboy

[Andromeda Stardust]

That may be it, but they should put it on there anyways. Sonic & Knuckles is every bit as long and it's here (Piggybacking Sonic 3 to play the combined game is the only way to save with S&K since it lacked onboard save capabilities). A disclaimer in the documentation (Or better yet, on-screen notice as it's booting up) explaining that Sonic 3's original save function is inoperable due to technical difficulties, or even an editing job to eliminate it would be preferable to just leaving this iconic game out, in my opinion.

 

Of course I have numerous ways to play this classic game so its loss is meaningless to me even if I was planning to purchase one of this year's Sega products. But to the casual impulse buyer, many are going to notice this conspicuous absence.

 

At least, as someone said, it's easily enough rectified on both products for the casual that just has to play it on their new AtGames Sega system.

Wrong thread really, but here's the thing: Since it supports reading the SD card anyway, if ATGames put even the slightest bit of additional effort into their software, they could add in SRAM save support by writing a file onto the SD card. Maybe all the built in games could save to a single file on the SD card, then any ROMs added to the SD card could have additional save files. Save States without SRAM is still a dangerous combination, because if at any point the user is required to reset the system, for instance you beat the final boss and have to reset after the end credits in order to start a new quest, etc, then it may not be possible to continue if the game doesn't register the SRAM in addition to the save state. And if the issue was not having a built in non-volitle memory to save games on, then how the blue hell are save states supported? I'm guessing the save states aren't retained and are permanently lost when you turn it off? A quick beat-em-up or platformer you can slug through in two hours or less sure, but good luck playing an RPG game with those settings...

[Atariboy]

It has been proven that these use Genesis on a chip technology.

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/126333-new-at-games-genesismegadrive/?p=2829314

 

So it's not an easy and cheap matter for them to make revisions. Heck, I'm surprised they improve at all since NOAC's have proven to be long lasting where issues are concerned due to the expense of modifying them. But they've definitely made progress none the less.

 

The point though is that even if you're right that its save capability being inoperable kept it off the list (And I suspect that you're right), that's beside the point. What I said that you quoted with my most recent reply was that such an issue really shouldn't of been reason to keep it off since Sonic 3, unlike a RPG, can be enjoyed just fine without it.

 

And if the issue was not having a built in non-volitle memory to save games on, then how the blue hell are save states supported? I'm guessing the save states aren't retained and are permanently lost when you turn it off?

That save states are supported is news to me. To the best of my knowledge, their Genesis products don't have any sort of onboard save support.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Atariboy

[atarilovesyou]

My two cents: I'll pick one up for sure...I hope they get the controllers right! It's got a ton of the great games, and will fit in nicely next to my FB2! I just might even get the Intellivision one, but only if the emulation is VERY GOOD...I didn't like the collection for the PS2 at all.

 

When are these coming out again?

[onmode-ky]

The preorder dates say October.

 

It has been proven that these use Genesis on a chip technology.

 

[. . .]

 

That save states are supported is news to me. To the best of my knowledge, their Genesis products don't have any sort of onboard save support.

Bill had mentioned earlier that the upcoming Genesis portable might have savestate capability. If so, it could be a gain from a paradigm shift, going the emulation route rather than using the RedKid-series chip. However, until Bill gets his review samples, we won't know for sure if AtGames made that change.

 

That could be, but there was no sign that they went anywhere beyond G-Mode to license any copyrights with the PSP Mini release or Data East Arcade Classics when those products released here in the West. G-Mode was attributed as the copyright holder of the arcade original that these home versions back in the day like the Colecovision game translated to home systems. No sign that G1M2/Majesco had to go anywhere except G-Mode to license the copyright for North America.

Well, I certainly don't have enough copyright knowledge to confirm or refute anything about our Bump 'N' Jump ponderings, but I think I may have found the answer to my earlier question about whether G-mode inherited Data East's American trademarks. Here is what G-mode owns in the way of US-registered trademarks. Note that the mark "Data East" is dated 1991 and is listed as "registered and renewed." So, that one looks inherited. However, almost everything else is dated December 2004, which is almost a whole year after G-mode acquired their Data East properties. That is, G-mode "manually" applied for those American marks after already having the properties in Japan. It looks like they simply didn't grab the "Bump 'N' Jump" mark, leaving it open for Coleco Holdings to nab.

 

Anyway, as for whether G-mode has any involvement in the ColecoVision Flashback, it occurred to me that the answer will become plain in due time: when the system releases, we can just see whether the packaging, manual, and/or system say anything like "Copyright G-mode." My bet's on it not being there.

 

We should see if "Copyright Sega" is there, too, since both "Zaxxon" and "Space Fury" are Coleco-owned marks now (are there any other Sega games in that list?). Maybe the ColecoVision Flashback will turn out to be a good lesson on trademarks and copyrights!

 

onmode-ky

Edited August 2, 2014 by onmode-ky

[Atariboy]

Anyway, as for whether G-mode has any involvement in the ColecoVision Flashback, it occurred to me that the answer will become plain in due time: when the system releases, we can just see whether the packaging, manual, and/or system say anything like "Copyright G-mode." My bet's on it not being there.

 

We should see if "Copyright Sega" is there, too, since both "Zaxxon" and "Space Fury" are Coleco-owned marks now (are there any other Sega games in that list?). Maybe the ColecoVision Flashback will turn out to be a good lesson on trademarks and copyrights!

How complete are such notices, though?

 

I'll have to open up the boxes for my two AtGames Atari Flashbacks that include material like Space Invaders and see. But you don't see a comprehensive list of licensing in something like Gran Turismo 6 that covers all the vehicles (And manufacturer's badges, names, probably even exhaust sounds in a few cases that are protected), tracks, songs, trackside and vehicle sponsors of real-life companies, etc.

 

They might opt with the Colecovision Flashback due to all the licensing for something generic like "all rights used under license from their respective owners".

 

Should be a good indicator though like you said if everything is listed separately. If no G-Mode is present under such a situation, it's a safe bet they didn't license anything from them.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Atariboy

[Andromeda Stardust]

It has been proven that these use Genesis on a chip technology.

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/126333-new-at-games-genesismegadrive/?p=2829314

 

So it's not an easy and cheap matter for them to make revisions. Heck, I'm surprised they improve at all since NOAC's have proven to be long lasting where issues are concerned due to the expense of modifying them. But they've definitely made progress none the less.

 

The point though is that even if you're right that its save capability being inoperable kept it off the list (And I suspect that you're right), that's beside the point. What I said that you quoted with my most recent reply was that such an issue really shouldn't of been reason to keep it off since Sonic 3, unlike a RPG, can be enjoyed just fine without it.

 

 

That save states are supported is news to me. To the best of my knowledge, their Genesis products don't have any sort of onboard save support.

GOAC clones work flawlessly with cartridges and support SRAM saving the same as the original systems. I do believe a giant multicart Genesis ROM that works with a clone chip or original hardware might have issues supporting SRAM saves considering that every game would essentially be writing saves to the same range of address space.

 

I thought it had been said that the newer SD card versions of the ATGames Genesis clones used emulation while the older cart versions used GOACs? Currently I don't own any ATGames Genesis products but I do own a clone system (Super Retro Trio) and original hardware that work flawlessly with cartridge saves. An SD card system that uses a GOAC clone would likely be expensive to build as it would have to have some sort of flash cart / Everdrive like interface built in. A cart system on an ARM emulation chip would have to dump the game first, ala Retron5. Neither system is very practical for a budget all-in-one game console. That may be why ATGames is ditching the cart slot and shifting to Emulation/SD slots instead.

[onmode-ky]

I'll have to open up the boxes for my two AtGames Atari Flashbacks that include material like Space Invaders and see.

I can save you the trouble:

 

That's a (super blurry) phone picture I took last year in a Walmart, showing the bottom of an Atari Flashback 64 box. Note the individual copyright notices for each Taito-licensed game.

 

But you don't see a comprehensive list of licensing in something like Gran Turismo 6 that covers all the vehicles (And manufacturer's badges, names, probably even exhaust sounds in a few cases that are protected), tracks, songs, trackside and vehicle sponsors of real-life companies, etc.

Are you sure? All that stuff could be in the game's credits; have you looked there? Sony's games' credits are paaaaaaainfully long. . . . Back when games had manuals, that kind of babble could also be found in the fine print at the back.

 

Anyway, in the case of the ColecoVision Flashback, I think all companies involved would be REALLY eager to get their names in some customer-visible print. "Hey, we own this mostly forgotten stuff that you want! Remember us!"

 

I thought it had been said that the newer SD card versions of the ATGames Genesis clones used emulation while the older cart versions used GOACs?

No, none of AtGames' Genesis clones these past few years have used emulation. Their SD-equipped portables have been using GOACs, same as their cartridge-capable systems and all-in-one systems. If the new portable is emulation-based, it will be their first one--or at least their first one in recent years, since I still haven't confirmed that their Genesis plug-n-play systems prior to ~2008 were already using GOAC implementations. Their Titan ARM implementation was supposed to be for Genesis emulation as far back as 2005, but then some lawsuits happened which may have been where they got their original RedKid GOAC.

 

onmode-ky

[Atariboy]

Sorry...

Edited August 2, 2014 by Atariboy

[Atariboy]

Sorry again...

Edited August 2, 2014 by Atariboy

[Atariboy]

GOAC clones work flawlessly with cartridges and support SRAM saving the same as the original systems.

I didn't say otherwise. We were talking about things AtGames themselves would have to implement. Save states, simulating the original onboard cartridge save mechanisms for rom images, etc.

 

I thought it had been said that the newer SD card versions of the ATGames Genesis clones used emulation while the older cart versions used GOACs?

That's not my understanding, but as Onmode already said, it sounds as if that might be changing (Switching from hardware to emulation).

 

An SD card system that uses a GOAC clone would likely be expensive to build as it would have to have some sort of flash cart / Everdrive like interface built in.

I'm not sure where this is coming from, but not in the least. In fact, many AtGames Sega products already have just such functionality.

 

A cart system on an ARM emulation chip would have to dump the game first, ala Retron5. Neither system is very practical for a budget all-in-one game console. That may be why ATGames is ditching the cart slot and shifting to Emulation/SD slots instead.

Retron 5 doesn't have to dump cartridges just because it's emulation based. And AtGames isn't discontinuing the cart slot. As with the previous round, the console has a cartridge slot and the handheld has a SD slot.

 

Are you sure? All that stuff could be in the game's credits; have you looked there? Sony's games' credits are paaaaaaainfully long. . . . Back when games had manuals, that kind of babble could also be found in the fine print at the back.

I haven't looked there, but I'm 99% sure this is the case fairly often with license heavy products to not have every last thing listed in the fine print (You'd need a paragraph just for the sponsors on a single NASCAR stock car).

 

Anyway, in the case of the ColecoVision Flashback, I think all companies involved would be REALLY eager to get their names in some customer-visible print. "Hey, we own this mostly forgotten stuff that you want! Remember us!"

Plus with the confusing nature of this, fewer parties might be involved than it might initially appear on the surface. I suppose we need to stop thinking in terms of who owned what back in 1982 and stop applying that strictly to today.

 

It still leaves me wondering just who owns what though like with Zaxxon (Which is still distributed by Sega today in arcade form with the widely reprinted Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection, the PSP download for Sega Genesis Collection that remains up (Although that one is Super Zaxxon), and the Wii Virtual Console Arcade download.

 

Are they actually licensing something from River West Brands?

Edited August 2, 2014 by Atariboy

[Greg2600]

River West owns the Colecovision trademark, that's it. They swooped in and got it after it had expired from non-use. All of the game code is copyrighted to whoever wrote/owned it. In the case of Zaxxon, I figure SEGA owns the trademark to the game, but not so sure who owns the Colecovision-specific game copyright?

[Andromeda Stardust]

Dang it. Lapsed trademarks should just go into public domain. Free to use for all and nobody should be able to buy it back.

[atarilovesyou]

So other than the usual trademark issues....which I don't care much about as it seems a dead horse:

 

I hope that this isn't the final packaging for the Coleco and Inty!...green?!?!...everybody knows they gotta stick to some kinda silver for the CV, and for the Inty...I dunno, maybe someone who's more into that system could comment, but some kind of beige or woody-tone?...lol, small nitpicks but why not capitalize on the nostalgia market that's going to be targeted towards?

 

Also, I hope these extra overlays and such will be available separately at some point.

 

To be honest, I'm kinda more excited for the Intellivision, as it literally has all the games I'd want to play. Sure, it would be cool to have the older DnD stuff too, but it's not a deal breaker. Just like no Nintendo on the CV, I don't really care that much as those weren't the games that made the CV the supersystem it was for me way back when. Funny how the Sega trademarks made it in, though...very nice!

[bkrownd]

Dang it. Lapsed trademarks should just go into public domain. Free to use for all and nobody should be able to buy it back.

 

But that would not enrich and empower the lawyers, and ensure that a nation by the lawyers and for the lawyers shall not perish from this Earth. :/

 

Do we know who owns "Mr. Do!"? Were they contacted and said no, or was it not included due to ownership confusion?

Edited August 2, 2014 by bkrownd

[Bill Loguidice]

So other than the usual trademark issues....which I don't care much about as it seems a dead horse:

 

I hope that this isn't the final packaging for the Coleco and Inty!...green?!?!...everybody knows they gotta stick to some kinda silver for the CV, and for the Inty...I dunno, maybe someone who's more into that system could comment, but some kind of beige or woody-tone?...lol, small nitpicks but why not capitalize on the nostalgia market that's going to be targeted towards?

 

Also, I hope these extra overlays and such will be available separately at some point.

 

To be honest, I'm kinda more excited for the Intellivision, as it literally has all the games I'd want to play. Sure, it would be cool to have the older DnD stuff too, but it's not a deal breaker. Just like no Nintendo on the CV, I don't really care that much as those weren't the games that made the CV the supersystem it was for me way back when. Funny how the Sega trademarks made it in, though...very nice!

 

That's the final packaging. The theme color is really a non-issue, it's just a way to distinguish between the different units. The units themselves are all themed around the most famous versions of the consoles.

 

What older D&D stuff are you referring to? Both original D&D games are on there, uncut.

[atarilovesyou]

...I didn't read the fine print, obviously!...and of course the packaging isn't a big deal, but why not stick with at least colours that somewhat represented the earlier era? For the CV at least, packaging similar to the original box would have been a nice touch. Is there some reason they wouldn't have gone for that? They did a similiar thing with the FB2, at least with the screen shots. I wouldn't think it was a cost issue. Just a small thing, but every little bit counts when it comes to snagging those nostalgia bucks.

 

While you're here, Bill, can you reassure me that the emulation is going to be 99.9% to the original games? We're not going to be getting some kinda FB1 situation?

[Bill Loguidice]

...I didn't read the fine print, obviously!...and of course the packaging isn't a big deal, but why not stick with at least colours that somewhat represented the earlier era? For the CV at least, packaging similar to the original box would have been a nice touch. Is there some reason they wouldn't have gone for that? They did a similiar thing with the FB2, at least with the screen shots. I wouldn't think it was a cost issue. Just a small thing, but every little bit counts when it comes to snagging those nostalgia bucks.

 

While you're here, Bill, can you reassure me that the emulation is going to be 99.9% to the original games? We're not going to be getting some kinda FB1 situation?

 

AtGames did the Flashback 3 and beyond. Packaging design has never been their strong point.

 

In any case, I can't assure you of anything regarding the emulation. Reports are it's quite good, but I won't have access to final hardware until some time later this month. I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be good, but we'll just have to wait and see.

[Andromeda Stardust]

So other than the usual trademark issues....which I don't care much about as it seems a dead horse:

 

I hope that this isn't the final packaging for the Coleco and Inty!...green?!?!...everybody knows they gotta stick to some kinda silver for the CV, and for the Inty...I dunno, maybe someone who's more into that system could comment, but some kind of beige or woody-tone?...lol, small nitpicks but why not capitalize on the nostalgia market that's going to be targeted towards?

 

Also, I hope these extra overlays and such will be available separately at some point.

 

To be honest, I'm kinda more excited for the Intellivision, as it literally has all the games I'd want to play. Sure, it would be cool to have the older DnD stuff too, but it's not a deal breaker. Just like no Nintendo on the CV, I don't really care that much as those weren't the games that made the CV the supersystem it was for me way back when. Funny how the Sega trademarks made it in, though...very nice!

Rainbow trim, silver, black, woodgrain, pink with purple polka dots, this needs to be released...

[onmode-ky]

Retron 5 doesn't have to dump cartridges just because it's emulation based.

Indeed. If I were to take a wild guess, it dumps them because it's easier to architect, based on what parts are easily available today. You either slurp the whole cartridge ROM into your system RAM and then do all your operations from there, or you build yourself custom hardware + low-level drivers + libraries so that the emulator you write can do real-time reading of the cartridge's instructions and data. Not impossible, but likely comparatively time-consuming. However, I note again that this is just my wild guess.

 

I haven't looked there, but I'm 99% sure this is the case fairly often with license heavy products to not have every last thing listed in the fine print (You'd need a paragraph just for the sponsors on a single NASCAR stock car).

I found the end credits for Gran Turismo 6; check this out. At the very end, there's a loooooong list of company credits. It is, however, not a true copyright screen but rather is entirely under a "With the Kind Cooperation of" heading. Still, the list is made up of not just car companies, but even things like Coca-Cola. Cars need refreshment, too.

 

I wonder if, in sponsoring a NASCAR car, you give NASCAR the right to do whatever they want with your on-car logo without any further involvement from you in licensing matters. That would put every car sponsor under a NASCAR copyright credit (and eliminate a lot of fine print). Sponsors of NASCAR events would probably be different. Anyway, that's going far off topic.

 

Plus with the confusing nature of this, fewer parties might be involved than it might initially appear on the surface. I suppose we need to stop thinking in terms of who owned what back in 1982 and stop applying that strictly to today.

I went ahead and investigated ALL 60 (61) CV FB GAMES on my own, and what we're looking at in terms of original IP owners/publishers/developers is a staggeringly long list. Here it is:

 

coleco/spinnaker/interphase/xonox/data east/broderbund/universal/imagic/sydney/spectravideo/circuits and systems/stern/epyx/sunrise/taito-atarisoft/big five/micro fun/parker brothers/sierra/midway/exidy/sega/carousel/philips probe 2000/krause/team pixelboy/gutierrez/spectral associates/digital press/konami

 

(the hyphen in "taito-atarisoft" derives from the fact that the only Taito-IP game is also the only Atarisoft-published game, Jungle Hunt)

 

There's definitely no way that the number of rights holders involved with the CV FB is actually that high. I wonder how much smaller it is.

 

It still leaves me wondering just who owns what though like with Zaxxon (Which is still distributed by Sega today in arcade form with the widely reprinted Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection, the PSP download for Sega Genesis Collection that remains up (Although that one is Super Zaxxon), and the Wii Virtual Console Arcade download.

 

Are they actually licensing something from River West Brands?

Hmm, that's an interesting question. I'd forgotten that the word "Zaxxon" does appear on Sega products currently available on the market.

 

AtGames did the Flashback 3 and beyond. Packaging design has never been their strong point.

You'll get no argument from me there.

 

onmode-ky

[Bill Loguidice]

For those asking about other territories, at this point in time, I can confirm that these units will only see release at US retailers.