Top Games You'd Like to Have for Atari 8-Bits

[emkay]

Have you looked at how HAM works? It's not really suited to moving objects due to how colours are assigned.

 

That said, you can cheat and get filled polygons for the price of a wireframe using these modes

You can change the Graphicsmode(Bitplanes) line by line.

If you compare the game to the Arcade, they tried to use the original graphics. Sometimes unknown tricks allow to do that.

Most possible solution is the use of EHB.

[+MrFish]

Here's a possible approach for 1942, which would use a sprite multiplexer.

 

All large sprites are 2 players + 2 missiles (large plane uses 1 player @ 2x width and 1 player @ 1x width)

; all small sprites are 2 players (no missiles).

 

Flicker would be minimized by multiplexing the protag's sprite with the large plane sprite. They would rarely

be on the same horizontal line, as you try to stay below them.

 

The small planes would be multiplexed with each other. They normally fly at different vertical positions,

except when circling or doing the occasional horizontal line pattern.

 

The giant planes would be done by utilizing all 4 players @ 2x width, which would be multiplexed with

the protag's sprite. You'd rarely see flicker, again, because of normally staying as low as possible on the

screen while fighting these big monsters. I'll work on some designs for the giant planes next.

 

Masks, bullets, and other items are soft sprites. It is possible to use multi-color player mode in order to

create masks for the airplanes using P/M's instead. I still have to do some experiments with this method.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by MrFish

[emkay]

 

The description and the picture do not really fit.

Where do you manage the black borders?

[+MrFish]

Masks, bullets, and other items are soft sprites. It is possible to use multi-color player mode in order to

create masks for the airplanes using P/M's instead. I still have to do some experiments with this method.

 

Where do you manage the black borders?

 

I'm calling them masks here.

[emkay]

I'm calling them masks here.

So you think about a complex software sprite engine running in parallel to a PMg multiplexer ?

 

Have you ever seen something similar on the Atari ? How do you want to manage that with the available Atari 8-Bit hardware ?

[+MrFish]

So you think about a complex software sprite engine running in parallel to a PMg multiplexer ?

 

Have you ever seen something similar on the Atari ? How do you want to manage that with the available Atari 8-Bit hardware ?

 

I'm not showing a proof of concept here. It's an idea about an approach. I realize adding softsprites

may be pushing things beyond what's manageable; this is why I mention that the masks can also be

created by using multi-color player mode and the correct color choices (which I'll be experimenting

with later); and there are still 2 missiles left for bullets. The other objects like the "Pow" and "500"

points are static.

 

Also, note that the action is not blazing fast in this game. The fastest moving objects are the small

bullets, and sprites don't need to number above what's shown here. The game doesn't need to be

replicated with as many sprites as are possible in the arcade version, it can be cut down some.

Edited April 11, 2018 by MrFish

[VladR]

So you think about a complex software sprite engine running in parallel to a PMg multiplexer ?

 

Have you ever seen something similar on the Atari ? How do you want to manage that with the available Atari 8-Bit hardware ?

I presume we're still talking about that vertical SHMUP thingy ? That's the easiest one in terms of performance, as the only thing that needs to be 60 fps is the main player.

All other enemies - they can run in different framerate. 30 fps, 20 fps or 15 fps. At 15 fps, the CPU has quite a huge number of cycles. Does the playfield need to run at 60 fps ? Then a screen would scroll in 3 seconds and that's a darn fast SHMUP.

 

So, just adjust the speed of moving (of the sprites) to correspond with the target framerate and nobody will notice anything, as even at 15 fps, you are still moving sprites by 1 pixel. The only difference would be that during a second, instead of moving 60 pixels, they would move 15 pixels (e.g. just the speed is different).

 

Granted, the complexity of having 3 different framerates may be slightly challenging from implementation standpoint, but you could start with a compromise - say 20 fps for all entities (3 NTSC vblanks) - which gives you ~60,000 cycles for CPU (minus WSYNC). You will still have the option of doubling the speed by skipping every other pixel, which still looks smooth, giving you up to 40px / second.

[NRV]

Really like that mockup

 

Just 4 colors because is bitmap graphics?, what would be the grey color at the top of the ship then?

And was black not the background color just to get blue at the borders?

 

I had my old demo/mockup with a similar idea:

 

 

Char graphics, 2 players for the player's ship and weapons, 2 players for the enemies (moving enemies or static in the terrain) and the missiles for most of the enemy shots, but probably is a little limiting (in gameplay terms) doing it like that.

 

 

I presume we're still talking about that vertical SHMUP thingy ? That's the easiest one in terms of performance, as the only thing that needs to be 60 fps is the main player.

All other enemies - they can run in different framerate. 30 fps, 20 fps or 15 fps. At 15 fps, the CPU has quite a huge number of cycles. Does the playfield need to run at 60 fps ? Then a screen would scroll in 3 seconds and that's a darn fast SHMUP.

 

So, just adjust the speed of moving (of the sprites) to correspond with the target framerate and nobody will notice anything, as even at 15 fps, you are still moving sprites by 1 pixel. The only difference would be that during a second, instead of moving 60 pixels, they would move 15 pixels (e.g. just the speed is different).

 

Granted, the complexity of having 3 different framerates may be slightly challenging from implementation standpoint, but you could start with a compromise - say 20 fps for all entities (3 NTSC vblanks) - which gives you ~60,000 cycles for CPU (minus WSYNC). You will still have the option of doubling the speed by skipping every other pixel, which still looks smooth, giving you up to 40px / second.

I was thinking of something similar, having the full game running at 30 fps (25 in pal) to be able to do things that you don't see normally in the A8.

 

This old demo scrolls the screen once every two frames, and I think it looks good enough:

 

 

But thinking about your examples, I assume that we are talking about updating or not the software sprites position (or animation frame).. not just the enemy internal logic (that for me is irrelevant in processing time).

In that case wouldn't it look a little strange if we don't update the sprite for a frame, but the screen scrolls in that frame (moving the software sprite with it)?

If the screen didn't scroll also in that frame then all is good, but then we need them both in sync and maybe that was what you were implying..

[VladR]

- yeah, we only scroll the screen at target frame rate - 15/20/30 fps

- the player's sprite must redraw at 60 fps or it will feel sluggish - but it's just one sprite, so it's cheap - if it's pmg, even easier

- All other sprites update at target frame rate - for 20 fps - we have 60,000 cycles of cpu time to draw bullets, explosions and animated enemies

 

- I haven't checked, but at 20 fps we can have fully doublebuffered display in text mode, and 60,000 cycles should be enough to just brute force all sprites without preshifting...

[+MrFish]

Really like that mockup

 

Just 4 colors because is bitmap graphics?, what would be the grey color at the top of the ship then?

And was black not the background color just to get blue at the borders?

 

No, it's 5 color char mode, done in Graph2Font; so, that's where I'm getting the grey at the top of the ship.

I could probably utilize the 5th color better, but I was focusing on the P/M graphics.

 

No, blue is the background. Here's the palette I'm using.

 

 

 

I had my old demo/mockup with a similar idea:

 

exed_04b.png

 

Cool stuff; solid color areas like that help the P/M's to stand out more. That's why I was using the

mask/outline above, since there exists a lot of potential for color clash with the wave and water

color pattern.

 

I made some attempts at replicating the masks/outlines using multi-color P/M mode, but there are

a few hitches with color use and having full masks for some items. So I've ditched that idea. I tried

a few different things that looked decent, but overall it's kind of an all or nothing design; half of them

outlined and half of them not just doesn't look right.

 

I got rid of the the masking/outlining altogether (and the softsprite bullets) and it still looks good. It's

not as dramatic as the first one, but it would be easier to implement. The missile colors can be

whatever, and I'm still using multi-color overlap mode to get various shades on the propellers, which

will allow for animating their movement.

 

Edited April 12, 2018 by MrFish

[Marsupilami]

Logical (i spent hours ont it). Simple graphics but quite difficult

 

 

 

ShufflePuck Café (screenshot from ST)

 

[Irgendwer]

Logical (i spent hours ont it). Simple graphics but quite difficult

 

Here is the A8 clone:

 

http://a8.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=4151

 

Edit: And out of curiosity: Now that you know that this title is available on the A8, will you play it again for hours just because it's on the A8?

 

(The clone could be done better in several ways (colors, input methods), but is a solid port anyway - of course it's not possible to reach the same graphical quality like on the ST.)

Edited April 12, 2018 by Irgendwer

[+Adam+]

Are you sure this isn't a ZX-81 game seeing it's black and white and considering the sound ?

 

Yeah, your joke may be really funny for people who: don't know ZX81 specifications, have never played Kult and/or think that it's the number of colours what makes games good

 

ShufflePuck Café (screenshot from ST)

 

(...)

 

Well... there exists a similar game called "Tawerna" (Tavern) from 1993:

 

 

http://a8.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=3281

[Wilheim]

Bubble bobble

Ghostn Goblins

Maniac Mansion

Zak McKracken and the Alíen mindbenders

Space Quest saga

1942 (please, dont mention Screaming Wings)

Pac-Land

New Rally X (looks like atariware dumped its development)

[McKong]

Ghosts 'n Goblins and Pac-Land get a vote from me too!

[+MrFish]

Here is the A8 clone:

 

http://a8.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=4151

 

Edit: And out of curiosity: Now that you know that this title is available on the A8, will you play it again for hours just because it's on the A8?

 

(The clone could be done better in several ways (colors, input methods), but is a solid port anyway - of course it's not possible to reach the same graphical quality like on the ST.)

 

The color choices are pretty bad for this, making it more difficult to play than it should be.

It might be a decent implementation, otherwise, but the difficulty should be in the challenges

that the game is designed to present, not because of poor visual choices or inadequate

programming.

 

It's hard to expect that people would be interested in games that fail to even replicate the

essential experience of the original. I can't see anyone finding this version of the game fun

at all. If the color problems were fixed, then it might stand a chance.

[+MrFish]

Logical (i spent hours ont it). Simple graphics but quite difficult

 

 

Seems like a pretty fun puzzle game. I played the Atari version suggested above for a

while, and like the gameplay -- as much as I was able to play it. I think it would be worth

making a good version, or maybe at least fixing the colors for the version above. It

shouldn't be too hard to hack the changes in. The low luminance values are the main

problem.

Edited April 12, 2018 by MrFish

[Marsupilami]

 

Here is the A8 clone:

 

http://a8.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=4151

 

Edit: And out of curiosity: Now that you know that this title is available on the A8, will you play it again for hours just because it's on the A8?

 

(The clone could be done better in several ways (colors, input methods), but is a solid port anyway - of course it's not possible to reach the same graphical quality like on the ST.)

Thanks Irgendwer, i've tried this version and...It misses something, maybe some good background music and indeed a different set of colors.

[Marsupilami]

 

Yeah, your joke may be really funny for people who: don't know ZX81 specifications, have never played Kult and/or think that it's the number of colours what makes games good

 

 

Well... there exists a similar game called "Tawerna" (Tavern) from 1993:

 

http://a8.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=3281

 

Nice but far from the original.

I mean the best part with shufflepuck was humour, the simple but efficient sounds effects and the fact that each opponent played differently. The music here is good but...

The Amstrad CPC version was also great for a 8 bit :

Edited April 12, 2018 by Marsupilami

[+CharlieChaplin]

Well... there exists a similar game called "Tawerna" (Tavern) from 1993:

 

http://a8.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=3281

 

And before Tawerna there was Rebound (looks different graphically, but gameplay is more or less the same):

http://a8.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=2833

 

And in pure 2D without spectators:

Air Hockey: http://a8.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=1223

Wall Ball: http://a8.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=3390

 

Think in the 70s they sold it as a variation of Pong and named it Hockey or Soccer...

Edited April 12, 2018 by CharlieChaplin

[+MrFish]

Makes me think about a cool breakout game I used to play on the classic Macs called Shatterball (YouTube)

Fun game and quite well done. May be possible to make a good version for the 8-bits. But until then, you can

enjoy it using Mini vMac or your other emulator of choice. One of the few breakout games that I ever truly

enjoyed.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2018 by MrFish

[popmilo]

- yeah, we only scroll the screen at target frame rate - 15/20/30 fps

- the player's sprite must redraw at 60 fps or it will feel sluggish - but it's just one sprite, so it's cheap - if it's pmg, even easier

- All other sprites update at target frame rate - for 20 fps - we have 60,000 cycles of cpu time to draw bullets, explosions and animated enemies

 

- I haven't checked, but at 20 fps we can have fully doublebuffered display in text mode, and 60,000 cycles should be enough to just brute force all sprites without preshifting...

As you said, shouldn't be a problem to draw all those sprites.

Example of what can be done in 25fps is here. Char mode with 5th color. Enough time to add scrolling and background animation of water and such. Enough chars left free to draw detailed background.

 

 

ps. I would still prefer Galaga over 1942

[Level42]

I'm completely opposite....1942 over Galaga any day.....

 

 

Just thought of another fun game which would be a breeze to convert judging by it's graphics and sound:

Space Taxi from the C64:

Nice simple fun game Edited April 12, 2018 by Level42

[+MrFish]

ps. I would still prefer Galaga over 1942

 

I'm completely opposite....1942 over Galaga any day.....

 

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm thinking more about a hybrid of 1942 & 1943.

1942 games can go pretty quickly. I prefer something a little more forgiving, than either

of them, actually. So, better ramping up in difficulty (more gradual) and no 1 shot deaths.

Although, maybe 1 shot deaths when large missiles are used, etc.

[carlsson]

Sometimes I like to think about games in terms of "What would make people get drawn to System X?", ideally exclusive or as close to exclusive titles as possible that also fit the system particularly well. Games that in this case would make retro gamers on other formats say "Hey! Those Atari computers seem mighty fine for gaming, I need to get me some".

 

While Galaga is a great game, it already exists in official or inofficial versions on a number of other systems including the graphically inferior but playwise decent PET port by Henrik Wening that was ported to the Atari 8-bit a couple of years ago. As an alternative, has anyone considered its follow-up Gaplus from 1984? Outside the arcade, supposedly it only exists for the C64 (1988), PS1 and Wii. The C64 version is rated 7.6 on Lemon64 so a fairly decent game that hasn't been converted to every possible system, not even the classic Nintendo or Sega squadrons from what I gather.