F18A MK2

[Wildstar]

The F18A does all of that for the system already, @panzeroceania. The first generation device replaces the video chip and provides a VGA connector for the output signals (you just have to mount the daughter board and the connector in your device). The MK II provides the same capability, but planned to target HDMI as the output video signal. The whole discussion here is how to ensure that we don't run afoul of the patent holders for HDMI, even if that means switching to some outher video out if we can't find a legal way to employ HDMI that is also within the price range of hobbyists.

 

Since connector design patents are not covered or an issue because we don't manufacture the connector and more than likely it comes from direct licensing with the connector's patent owners anyway so it is a non-issue. The legal boggle pertains to the HDMI signals format and structure. We can technically re-purpose the Type D "micro-HDMI" connector but drive regular old fashion VGA. When I said RGBHV.... they are VGA compliant 31 and higher KHz RGBHV even though it is possible that we drive the Hsync down to 15 KHz for legacy analog RGB monitors but today's multisync monitors are 31 KHz minimum and maximum being something higher to drive those higher video resolution modes. NOTE: ALL MODERN VGA/SVGA monitors are multisync but they are not multi-sync down to 15 KHz except for very exceptional models.

 

In fact, you can use what they call a "scanline divider" to divide the scanlines in half (the inverse of a scanline doubler) if you want to step it down to 15 Khz but at half the Hsync. We probably wouldn't need to be so worried about 15 KHz stuff anyway because we'll find far more VGA/SVGA monitors that do 31KHz and higher than there ever were of 15 KHz analog RGB monitors.

 

My only concern with driving VGA/SVGA video on the micro-HDMI connector is the wire gauge capability of carrying the signals. They might be a little too fine of a gauge wire and the signal strength might be too strong.... I don't know because I never attempted to do this. Those 19 wires got to be awfully small and on ultra-fine twisted pairs so there might be an "Ohm" resistance issue.

[panzeroceania]

@Ksarul. Yes I didn't mean to get off topic, was just pointing out neither the 9928A in the CV nor the F18A provide 15kHz RGB, but it's not critical to the discussion at hand. Currently seems the most viable option would be DisplayPort via USB Type C connector

[Wildstar]

@Ksarul. Yes I didn't mean to get off topic, was just pointing out neither the 9928A in the CV nor the F18A provide 15kHz RGB, but it's not critical to the discussion at hand. Currently seems the most viable option would be DisplayPort via USB Type C connector

 

Technically, we could send regular analog VGA/SVGA over the connector as long as we can carry it over such super fine wires. I've heard of some unusual implementations over carrying VGA over RJ45 jacks/Cat5 cables. Here's one implementation.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-your-own-VGA-cord-of-CAT5-cable/

 

Those micro-HDMI uses twisted pairs for carrying TMDS so it is conceivable as long as the ohm issue isn't a problem.

 

I am getting into contact with individuals at HDMI Licensing to see if we can negotiate a licensing option.

 

I'll contact them on the phone as well.

[matthew180]

...

I was pondering if the HDMI was an integrated component in the FPGA (outright) as maybe found in some specialized SOC class FPGA with on-board HDMI transmitter....... it might be because they would have been paying the royalty because of the chip.

...

 

That would be nice, but this is not the case for Xilinx anyway. They have a few dedicated blocks in their FPGAs like SDRAM memory controllers, gigabit transceivers, clock synthesizers, SERDES, etc. but nothing like a dedicated HDMI or DP output. They do provide an IP Core for HDMI, but I'm sure you have to be an HDMI Adopter to license it (and I'm sure it is more than I could afford anyway).

 

 

Matthew, I like what you got going so far. For a software project I'm planning for classic systems with 2d graphic technology, the F18A (or in this case, the MK2 version) would be a very nice video chip to include even on an plug-in video card (for the Apple II/IIgs and similar systems), or as a video "cartridge" such as the C64/128, Plus/4, Vic-20, on a Video Card for the TI-99/4A's PEB, and numerous other systems. For the project and it's nature, it is really nice to have a fairly consistent video graphic technology to work on for consistent 2d assets especially in an online multiplayer environment.

 

This would imply investing on developing solutions of bringing this video "chip" to the different systems.

 

Thanks. The F18A and MK2 can certainly be used as generic VDPs for just about anything with an 8-bit interface. One of my plans for the MK2 was to provide different pin outs for various other systems, etc. I would also like to have provided example circuits for interfacing with micorcontrollers like the Arduino and such. So much to do, so little time. Documentation would be good too!

 

There are some people who have already used the F18A in Apple ][ systems. There is a thread about it in the Apple subforum here on A.A.

 

 

 

YJK Bitmap modes would be interesting. ..

 

I saw the YJK reference in the 9938 datasheet, but I don't know what it is and never bothered to Google it yet. Apparently a different color scheme? Some sort of 9938/58 version of the firmware is possible (if I can ever get the hardware part done!).

 

 

 

This is a bit off the main topic. but in the case of the colecovision and adam computer, they only have pins for composite video, correct? in that case you'd need some kind of replacement of video encoder chip (like the F18A) to get RGB as the base systems do not supply it in a ready to use format.

 

The 9928/9929 output component video, which can be converted to "RGB" with analog electronics. I think there is even an example of a circuit in one of the datasheets, but it not, such circuits can be found on the 'Net. It would certainly require some modding / hacking to the system, but I also think those kinds of kits already exist.

 

With the F18A I wanted to access the video while it was still in a digital format, so I re-implemented the whole VDP so I could generate the best video output possible. I was also able to fix a few things (like the sprite limit) and add some features I always wanted (pixel scrolling, more colors per pixel, etc.)

[matthew180]

...

In fact, you can use what they call a "scanline divider" to divide the scanlines in half (the inverse of a scanline doubler) if you want to step it down to 15 Khz but at half the Hsync.

...

 

If the source was standard VGA (31KHz horizontal), then dividing the scan rate like this means you would be losing 50% of your source video, i.e. every other line would have to be ignored.

 

...

 

My only concern with driving VGA/SVGA video on the micro-HDMI connector is the wire gauge capability of carrying the signals. They might be a little too fine of a gauge wire and the signal strength might be too strong.... I don't know because I never attempted to do this. Those 19 wires got to be awfully small and on ultra-fine twisted pairs so there might be an "Ohm" resistance issue.

 

TDMS lines are pulled to 3.3V in the sink (usually a monitor), but the VGA color signals are only 0.0V to 0.7V into 75-ohms. An HDMI cable should easily carry such signals. However, VGA is probably not an option for a few primary reasons:

 

1. There is still the audio problem, and I would really like to fix that on the MK2, seeing as how I already have to ADC to bring in the host system's audio for digital injection in the output video.

 

2. VGA connectors are large, and due to less demand these days, they are getting expensive. The VGA pig tail that is provided with the original F18A was one of the single hardest parts to source at a reasonable price, and there is the problem that is only one supplier. It also uses a giant 16-pin IDC connector that is just not possible on the MK2.

 

3. I'm sure the first thing most people do is take the F18A VGA output and run it into a VGA-to-HDMI or DP converter. I think HDMI output is the single biggest complaint / wish that was mentioned for the original F18A.

 

4. Providing a VGA daughter board to carry the VGA header, as well as a connector for a cable back to the MK2, would probably be prohibitive cost / assembly wise.

 

HDMI has the market and the technical solution, which is why it is by far the best choice if possible.

[Wildstar]

 

If the source was standard VGA (31KHz horizontal), then dividing the scan rate like this means you would be losing 50% of your source video, i.e. every other line would have to be ignored.

 

 

TDMS lines are pulled to 3.3V in the sink (usually a monitor), but the VGA color signals are only 0.0V to 0.7V into 75-ohms. An HDMI cable should easily carry such signals. However, VGA is probably not an option for a few primary reasons:

 

1. There is still the audio problem, and I would really like to fix that on the MK2, seeing as how I already have to ADC to bring in the host system's audio for digital injection in the output video.

 

2. VGA connectors are large, and due to less demand these days, they are getting expensive. The VGA pig tail that is provided with the original F18A was one of the single hardest parts to source at a reasonable price, and there is the problem that is only one supplier. It also uses a giant 16-pin IDC connector that is just not possible on the MK2.

 

3. I'm sure the first thing most people do is take the F18A VGA output and run it into a VGA-to-HDMI or DP converter. I think HDMI output is the single biggest complaint / wish that was mentioned for the original F18A.

 

4. Providing a VGA daughter board to carry the VGA header, as well as a connector for a cable back to the MK2, would probably be prohibitive cost / assembly wise.

 

HDMI has the market and the technical solution, which is why it is by far the best choice if possible.

 

VGA connector wouldn't be so much an issue at the chip. I was talking of using a modified micro-HDMI cable so you use the micro-HDMI cable end to plug into the tiny little socket but the difference is you're using VGA/SVGA signals not normal HDMI and in theory, you could carry the audio along the cable and have VGA & stereo jack plugs on the other end of the cable. The VGA is an HD15 connector.

 

I'm just providing a loop-hole around HDMI licensing if necessary. I hope to get their attention. I'll just have to be annoying enough.

 

I'd just was giving you a backup plan. I think HDMI Licensing Administrators would prefer we use a full and true HDMI signal than driving old fashion VGA/SVGA over it because it wouldn't be technically what people would expect so we would have to give a proper notice.

[Wildstar]

 

That would be nice, but this is not the case for Xilinx anyway. They have a few dedicated blocks in their FPGAs like SDRAM memory controllers, gigabit transceivers, clock synthesizers, SERDES, etc. but nothing like a dedicated HDMI or DP output. They do provide an IP Core for HDMI, but I'm sure you have to be an HDMI Adopter to license it (and I'm sure it is more than I could afford anyway).

 

 

 

Thanks. The F18A and MK2 can certainly be used as generic VDPs for just about anything with an 8-bit interface. One of my plans for the MK2 was to provide different pin outs for various other systems, etc. I would also like to have provided example circuits for interfacing with micorcontrollers like the Arduino and such. So much to do, so little time. Documentation would be good too!

 

There are some people who have already used the F18A in Apple ][ systems. There is a thread about it in the Apple subforum here on A.A.

 

 

 

I saw the YJK reference in the 9938 datasheet, but I don't know what it is and never bothered to Google it yet. Apparently a different color scheme? Some sort of 9938/58 version of the firmware is possible (if I can ever get the hardware part done!).

 

 

 

The 9928/9929 output component video, which can be converted to "RGB" with analog electronics. I think there is even an example of a circuit in one of the datasheets, but it not, such circuits can be found on the 'Net. It would certainly require some modding / hacking to the system, but I also think those kinds of kits already exist.

 

With the F18A I wanted to access the video while it was still in a digital format, so I re-implemented the whole VDP so I could generate the best video output possible. I was also able to fix a few things (like the sprite limit) and add some features I always wanted (pixel scrolling, more colors per pixel, etc.)

 

YJK is similar to YUV but it works on an underlying RGB system. Kind of like HAM and HAM8 on Analog RGB. It is more a digital delivery of the information to generate on RGB display. Crude summation but it served a purpose or method at the time.

I'm with you on the more colors per pixel and so forth.

 

"Thanks. The F18A and MK2 can certainly be used as generic VDPs for just about anything with an 8-bit interface. One of my plans for the MK2 was to provide different pin outs for various other systems, etc. I would also like to have provided example circuits for interfacing with micorcontrollers like the Arduino and such. So much to do, so little time. Documentation would be good too!

There are some people who have already used the F18A in Apple ][ systems. There is a thread about it in the Apple subforum here on A.A."

Yeah, the idea would be something appropriate and of a common spec that is respectively decent as well. There are benefits that I like so it can be use efficiently as a video card or cartridge on numerous systems so as to be usable by the different systems with a software program that would using it and ported to the different platforms. That's the goal so I have some level of common experience and common color palette system as well so graphics is universally seen on the systems where it matters in this.

[Tursi]

They do provide an IP Core for HDMI, but I'm sure you have to be an HDMI Adopter to license it (and I'm sure it is more than I could afford anyway).

I looked at this here: https://www.xilinx.com/products/intellectual-property/hdmi.html#documentation

 

I also looked at a Vendor (AvNet) here: https://www.avnet.com/shop/us/products/xilinx/efr-di-hdmi-site-3074457345625581966/

 

The price is just shy of $3000, but the documentation seemed unclear to me. Xilinx offers indemnification with the purchase, which I would have thought meant you're licensed to use it... but ultimately a phone call is probably needed to know for sure.

[matthew180]

@Tursi, thanks for the info, I just might give them a call. However, it seems odd to me that by licensing their HDMI IP you would be covered. I is worth finding out though.

 

Something else I have been thinking about, it seems every hobby project I can find that provides an HDMI input or output never use any official HDMI logo or other official branding. I wonder if by not using any official branding, or by not claiming any conformance or compatibility, that somehow that is a technical loop-hole and makes it harder to be held liable or sued? This would really be a question of a legal person who is more familiar with what the HDMI.org specification entails.

 

Now that I think about it, I wonder if there are documents somewhere that explain exactly what is protected by the HDMI license? The technical documentation certainly does not contain that information (that I have seen).

[Asmusr]

@Tursi, thanks for the info, I just might give them a call. However, it seems odd to me that by licensing their HDMI IP you would be covered. I is worth finding out though.

 

Something else I have been thinking about, it seems every hobby project I can find that provides an HDMI input or output never use any official HDMI logo or other official branding. I wonder if by not using any official branding, or by not claiming any conformance or compatibility, that somehow that is a technical loop-hole and makes it harder to be held liable or sued? This would really be a question of a legal person who is more familiar with what the HDMI.org specification entails.

 

Now that I think about it, I wonder if there are documents somewhere that explain exactly what is protected by the HDMI license? The technical documentation certainly does not contain that information (that I have seen).

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that the more exact you specify terms and conditions the easier it is for others to find loopholes or ways to circumvent them. So I believe they are deliberately being a bit vague about what they are protecting. Not because they have a bad case, but perhaps because they choose to pick their fights. I hope you will soon get an answer to the letter you wrote. At least that will provide some clarity.

[fabrice montupet]

There are some people who have already used the F18A in Apple ][ systems. There is a thread about it in the Apple subforum here on A.A.

 

I think that their work were based to the early works around the TMS9918A. This VDP, like some other VDP, has been integrated to expansion cards for Apple II in the early 1980s. Interfacing it to this computer is quite easy. Some years ago, I had fun to realize a dual VDP based on the TMS9929 for the Apple II (obtaining 120 colors and 64 sprites simultaneously).

[Wildstar]

@Tursi, thanks for the info, I just might give them a call. However, it seems odd to me that by licensing their HDMI IP you would be covered. I is worth finding out though.

 

Something else I have been thinking about, it seems every hobby project I can find that provides an HDMI input or output never use any official HDMI logo or other official branding. I wonder if by not using any official branding, or by not claiming any conformance or compatibility, that somehow that is a technical loop-hole and makes it harder to be held liable or sued? This would really be a question of a legal person who is more familiar with what the HDMI.org specification entails.

 

Now that I think about it, I wonder if there are documents somewhere that explain exactly what is protected by the HDMI license? The technical documentation certainly does not contain that information (that I have seen).

 

I have been in contact with one of the individuals at HDMI Licensing, and while at this moment, they haven't interest in licensing or changing the model. HOWEVER, I am furthering pursuit with various parties including the CEO. However, they appreciated that we are pursuing a legal method with them. It was indicated to be by (name) that it isn't their real interest to pursue legal actions against small businesses like the hobbyists working on very low volume products like this. Their legal term are really interested in going after those who really are A) blatantly trying to circumvent licensing and are the large scale kind that could afford the license. You know like some Chinese knock-off that are selling 250,000 DVD players with an HDMI port and not paying for licensing. Their lawyers and compliance department might not know if you are a big or small fry or anything like that. I'm looking to discuss options with them to remove or at the least lessen the spectre of a lawsuit for those of us selling in such micro-scopic volume. Our volume is similar in scale to prototypical batch runs by small to medium size product manufacturers that are typical licensees. Perhaps, they can treat such low production volume as similar to prototypes. In any case, I want to continue to pursue an avenue that is mutually beneficial. We want to remove the spectre of a lawsuit. It may take some more time to get through that.

 

Matthew, you may continue with a prototype development so you have it working. As for 'product' release version, lets see what we can do in getting something going in regards to it.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Wildstar

[Tursi]

I think that their work were based to the early works around the TMS9918A. This VDP, like some other VDP, has been integrated to expansion cards for Apple II in the early 1980s. Interfacing it to this computer is quite easy. Some years ago, I had fun to realize a dual VDP based on the TMS9929 for the Apple II (obtaining 120 colors and 64 sprites simultaneously).

While it's true those cards existed back then, Matt was talking about this project from 2 years ago:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/248108-appleti

 

edit: oh, nevermind, I misread what you were saying - based on.

 

Would have liked to have seen your dual VDP system too

Edited July 19, 2018 by Tursi

[Wildstar]

I will have to have some products sales of 1000 units of sales (not just hardware but other products that I can subsidize the cost) a year. Perhaps, we can come up with something. $6150 is doable if we have more than one product to distribute the cost over.

 

Matthew, maybe we can come up with something. Lets brainstorm our way through the issue.

[Wildstar]

 

I think that their work were based to the early works around the TMS9918A. This VDP, like some other VDP, has been integrated to expansion cards for Apple II in the early 1980s. Interfacing it to this computer is quite easy. Some years ago, I had fun to realize a dual VDP based on the TMS9929 for the Apple II (obtaining 120 colors and 64 sprites simultaneously).

 

I'm looking at F18A socketed onto a plugin card for Apple II/IIe/IIgs and other computer systems. We just need the PCBs and supporting components designed as needed to properly interface.

While it is for a software project, this 'hardware' wouldn't be limited to a specific software.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Wildstar

[TPR]

If the community here wants to help solve this problem, I am all ears and would be very grateful.

 

At what point does hdmi consider a product supporting the format to need the license? Since the F18a board already requires a fairly decent amount of skill when it comes to installation and soldering anyway, what if you just left the pinholes in the PCB a made people get their own HDMI connector to solder onto the board? You can get these for like a dollar....

While not an ideal turnkey solution, the F18A was, at least IMO, not a simple "plug n play" device to begin with and required a bit more advanced knowledge of electronics and soldering. How much more work would it be for someone to solder some additional pins if this turned out to be a loophole or some sort of solution?

[Wildstar]

 

At what point does hdmi consider a product supporting the format to need the license? Since the F18a board already requires a fairly decent amount of skill when it comes to installation and soldering anyway, what if you just left the pinholes in the PCB a made people get their own HDMI connector to solder onto the board? You can get these for like a dollar....

Screen Shot 2018-07-21 at 4.43.12 PM.png

While not an ideal turnkey solution, the F18A was, at least IMO, not a simple "plug n play" device to begin with and required a bit more advanced knowledge of electronics and soldering. How much more work would it be for someone to solder some additional pins if this turned out to be a loophole or some sort of solution?

 

Technically, it doesn't matter if you have an HDMI connector or merely a header. The thing is the HDMI signals.

 

The thing that is mostly the challenge for them to approve an alternate licensing path than one that is already existing is that such a decision would require approval by all the "Founders".

 

HDMI Founders

Maxell, Ltd.

Panasonic Corporation

Sanyo Electric Co., Ltd.* (Affiliate of Panasonic Corporation)

Koninklijke Philips Electronics N.V.

Lattice Semiconductor Corporation

Sony Corporation

Technicolor S.A. (formerly known as Thomson)

Toshiba Corporation

It would be my next step to coordinate a simultaneous contact with the companies.

I'm brainstorming some options. One way to address the HDMI main administrative fee (be it the $5,000 or the $10,000) is to sell multiple lines of products that may or may not have HDMI and absorb the cost. The community of retro computing developers might be able to pool this for Matthew by adding a dollar or two on a variety of products and donate that to Matthew. If Matthew provides other products as well which he can sell, this cost can be subsidized and not just on the products that do have an HDMI connector.

I am thinking of a way we can do this. I may also looking at additional options as well. Even I may trip the requirement of licensing. In which I case, I would have to get to work on putting some products out that I can absorb/subsidize the HDMI administrative fee(s).

There are certain products that in our business has high 'contribution margins' because per unit hard costs in software and game development is very small. All amounts above cost of floppy disks, SD/micro-SD, cassette tapes are consider considered contribution margins. As owners, we aren't paid wages or salaries per se. There is usually a planned per unit profit margin (contribution margin) and when calculating costs. So if this would increase your hard costs in doing business, then you distribute the cost on all products so it doesn't impact one single product too much.

Take a page out of Nintendo's playbook. They subsidized a bit of manufacturing costs of the NES via the games and other products and accessories. The key is to have more than one product otherwise you basically need to do one or more crowdfunding campaigns because we just won't be getting conventional VC funding for this kind of project. Otherwise, the solution is to distribute the costs across the business. It's like renting a store location.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Wildstar

[matthew180]

...

While not an ideal turnkey solution, the F18A was, at least IMO, not a simple "plug n play" device to begin with and required a bit more advanced knowledge of electronics and soldering. How much more work would it be for someone to solder some additional pins if this turned out to be a loophole or some sort of solution?

 

The soldering is not trivial, these are really small pins and a multi-layer PCB with power and ground planes. Also, if people have to do soldering I'm pretty sure it will cut out a huge number of hobbyists, which defeats the purpose. The connector you specified is also too big. And, as already mentioned, the HDMI connector is not the only part of the license.

 

 

...

One way to address the HDMI main administrative fee (be it the $5,000 or the $10,000) is to sell multiple lines of products that may or may not have HDMI and absorb the cost.

...

 

And that is part of the problem, I'm not interested in making a bunch of products. This is a hobby that I am just trying to share what I build so other hobbyists can better enjoy their retro systems. It would be great to be able to make an actual living making retro-computer hardware, but IMO that is not possible; I believe the market is too small and the time frame too limited (the generation coming behind us does not have the same attachment to their computers as we do).

[TPR]

The soldering is not trivial, these are really small pins and a multi-layer PCB with power and ground planes. Also, if people have to do soldering I'm pretty sure it will cut out a huge number of hobbyists, which defeats the purpose. The connector you specified is also too big. And, as already mentioned, the HDMI connector is not the only part of the license.

 

Understood. Just throwing out an idea. I didn't know if it would have merit or not, but better than not contributing at all. I really hope there is a solution. I'm sure you know I've love to see this get produced and would greatly support it!

[Wildstar]

 

Understood. Just throwing out an idea. I didn't know if it would have merit or not, but better than not contributing at all. I really hope there is a solution. I'm sure you know I've love to see this get produced and would greatly support it!

 

TPR,

 

As previously mentioned, the connector itself doesn't matter. What matters is the video style. Like I said earlier, we can send old fashion analog VGA through that micro-HDMI without using TMDS and essentially bypass the requirement of licensing because we aren't using "HDMI" video.

 

 

And that is part of the problem, I'm not interested in making a bunch of products. This is a hobby that I am just trying to share what I build so other hobbyists can better enjoy their retro systems. It would be great to be able to make an actual living making retro-computer hardware, but IMO that is not possible; I believe the market is too small and the time frame too limited (the generation coming behind us does not have the same attachment to their computers as we do).

 

I get ya on the challenge.

 

There are options I am looking at but like anything else, it would take some time to check out.

 

I may also consider licensing the F18A intellectual property so a variety of products retro-computing and beyond can use the technology. Keep in mind that there is a world of technology not explicitly part of the retro-computing scene that can use such technologies. That little 100 MHz "TMS9900" FPGA core can still be useful in embedded computing. Add a multistage pipeline.... BAM !!!! the number of clocks cycles per instruction can be significantly reduced.

Edited July 22, 2018 by Wildstar

[+chue]

As previously mentioned, the connector itself doesn't matter. What matters is the video style. Like I said earlier, we can send old fashion analog VGA through that micro-HDMI without using TMDS and essentially bypass the requirement of licensing because we aren't using "HDMI" video.

 

Pardon my ignorance, but would USB-C work instead of micro-HDMI? There doesn't seem to be any licensing issues with the former.

Edited July 22, 2018 by chue

[Wildstar]

 

Pardon my ignorance, but would USB-C work instead of micro-HDMI? There doesn't seem to be any licensing issues with the former.

 

The connector is not the issue. I can use that type of HDMI connector and drive just about any kind of digital signal down it including ethernet. The issue isn't the physical connector. HDMI is method of sending digital video over connectors using the TMDS signals. The intellectual property issue is the digital video format.

 

USB-C is just another connector with what USB-C specification calls "Alternate modes" to transmitting video modes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C#Alternate_Mode_partner_specifications

 

If you use HDMI Alternate Mode on USB-C in an end-user product (ie. selling a complete product to end-user), you technically have to be licensed. Of course, if someone buys from Matthew, the F18A MKII, and then packages it with an HDMI cable, we might be able to pass the buck on who has to deal with HDMI Licensing. Someone who sells numerous products and running a stable business would be an ideal party. As I said before, the administrative fixed fee would be something to distribute the cost over an array of products, not just HDMI containing products. You only pay royalty on units of end user products using HDMI technology.

 

When you start delivering video using HDMI, MHL, or other video modes, you may need to look at the licensing involved whether it be HDMI, MHL (similar licensing structure to that of HDMI), Thunderbolt/Displayport, and any other.

 

We have to read the applicable licensing. I have a copy of HDMI and MHL adopter agreement and licensing terms. We might be able to get by with thunderbolt over USB-C. I'll check into Thunderbolt/Displayport. I'd use the USB-C connector because that can be beneficial for us to us for multiple purposes.

 

Displayport is administered via VESA. We can soft-patch HDMI support latter but this would get us working. This could work for us better in the long run because we can get it to output to everything from VGA (with converter device), DVI, HDMI and we can daisy chain in theory in some cases and the USB-C type connector can allow us to pipe data over USB 2.1 protocol as we may see a need for.

 

Lets research how we can do this. Before any product is sold, we'll need to look at what licensing maybe involved.

[+chue]

 

The connector is not the issue. I can use that type of HDMI connector and drive just about any kind of digital signal down it including ethernet. The issue isn't the physical connector. HDMI is method of sending digital video over connectors using the TMDS signals. The intellectual property issue is the digital video format.

 

 

Clearly there are some gray areas with HDMI, whether it be the connector or the signals. The only way to clarify is to talk to the HDMI people.

 

I meant USB-C + VGA - is this workable?

Edited July 22, 2018 by chue

[+OLD CS1]

 

I meant USB-C + VGA - is this workable?

 

Stipulating this is possible, it defeats the digital output spirit of the F18A MK2 and the necessity of its design.

[+chue]

 

Stipulating this is possible, it defeats the digital output spirit of the F18A MK2 and the necessity of its design.

 

It reduces the footprint of the F18A, and it theoretically allows other signaling. Perhaps it could be done in such a way where you get VGA now, and some other kind of signal later via firmware. Just thinking out loud.