Boulder Dash®

[+batari]

Well, to be precise, the 2600 CAN do basically any frequency with some complicated tricks, even without special hardware, like is done in Red Box/Blue Box.  But this takes up so many kernel cycles to do that it practically rules out putting it in anything but the simplest game (certainly not Boulderdash.)

The original Boulderdash only runs music on the title screen, so CPU-hogging routines aren't necessarily out of the picture.

883501[/snapback]

Actually, 2600 title screens are typically very kernel-hungry. Putting in cool music would require a huge tradeoff - a somewhat crappy/basic title screen would be required. Download Red Box/Blue Box yourself and see what the screen looks like - it's pretty basic, and that's about all the programmer (I forget who it was) could do.

[carlsson]

Quite off-topic by now, but to me the Atari version of Boulder Dash sounds more like strings playing it, while the C64 version is more like woodwind (clarinet) with its definitive attack on each note instead of sliding into most of the notes. Which you prefer probably depends on what you were grown up to.

 

(On the topic of Archon, the different bass line is questionable, but the different chord changes on a few places almost sounds like a mistake, like POKEY was not able to generate the desired frequency. I guess someone would need to try to reach Tommy Dunbar for a confirmation which was more like what he tried to do)

[Bruce Tomlin]

Actually, 2600 title screens are typically very kernel-hungry.  Putting in cool music would require a huge tradeoff - a somewhat crappy/basic title screen would be required.  Download Red Box/Blue Box yourself and see what the screen looks like - it's pretty basic, and that's about all the programmer (I forget who it was) could do.

Red/Blue is most definitely NOT typical 2600 audio. I wrote it specifically to generate sine wave sound of precise frequencies, and that took up 80% or so of the CPU. Since the CPU was responsible for the waveform, and not the TIA, it needed to be updated on every scan line, with no exceptions. And then with what CPU was left, reading both keypads took up the top half of the screen. I didn't even have time to use the horizontal motion registers and had to preset the horizontal positions at startup.

 

Normally a 2600 game will only update the sound registers once per frame at most.

Edited July 1, 2005 by Bruce Tomlin

[moderntimes99]

Actually, 2600 title screens are typically very kernel-hungry.  Putting in cool music would require a huge tradeoff - a somewhat crappy/basic title screen would be required.  Download Red Box/Blue Box yourself and see what the screen looks like - it's pretty basic, and that's about all the programmer (I forget who it was) could do.

883793[/snapback]

In case of the Boulder Dash intro tune I think that the 2600 can actually reproduce it fairly well making all Red Box/Blue Box stuff unnecessary.

 

The mp3 file below is a sample from a real 2600 playing my translation of the tune.

bd2600.mp3

 

And here is the corresponding binary (this is more or less the same as bd_plain.bin posted earlier to this thread, but with a few smaller adjustments).

bd2600.zip

 

Best regards,

Moderntimes99

Edited July 1, 2005 by moderntimes99

[ZylonBane]

That's pretty good, but the main melody notes sound like they're being clipped off prematurely. It's very "blippy", unlike the original notes which have lots of ADSR action going on and kind of slide into each other.

 

Not that I could do any better myself.

[moderntimes99]

That's pretty good, but the main melody notes sound like they're being clipped off prematurely. It's very "blippy", unlike the original notes which have lots of ADSR action going on and kind of slide into each other.

 

Not that I could do any better myself. 

884357[/snapback]

You're absolutely right about the "blippiness" - that's unfortunately a necessary evil to overcome some very badly sounding interference that would otherwise arise between the two channels. Believe me, you don't want to hear it!

 

It is my conviction that this is about as far as the poor old 2600 can be pushed. It is hard enough to find notes that represent the melody reasonably well that don't sound too horrible together! However, I would gladly find myself to be proven wrong and therefore invite anyone that likes to make a version that's even closer to the original to give it a try!

 

If for nothing else it's quite an interesting experience to try to make music on the 2600 - you can't believe how primitive it really is (and how bad it can sound!) until you have tried it out on your own...

 

Regards,

Moderntimes99

[Paul Slocum]

There is an existing engine to do softsynth music on the 2600.

 

it's on the minidig under pitfall 2 sound. mp3 example here.

http://www.qotile.net/temp/pitsound.mp3

 

Softsynth is probably the only way that song's going to be done on the 2600 without sounding horribly out of tune.

 

-paul

[supercat]

You're absolutely right about the "blippiness" - that's unfortunately a necessary evil to overcome some very badly  sounding interference that would otherwise arise between the two channels. Believe me, you don't want to hear it!

 

Can you throw on an amplitude envelope to make it sound 'dingy' or 'hooty' instead?

 

If for nothing else it's quite an interesting experience to try to make music on the 2600 - you can't believe how primitive it really is (and how bad it can sound!) until you have tried it out on your own...

884383[/snapback]

 

Adding an amplitude envelope or modulation can help mask some of the objectionable out-of-tune-ness. To be sure, the masking only stretches so far and some of the 2600's notes are truly horrible clinkers. But amplitude shaping and percussion can help a lot.

[+Andrew Davie]

In case of the Boulder Dash intro tune I think that the 2600 can actually reproduce it fairly well making all Red Box/Blue Box stuff unnecessary.

 

The mp3 file below is a sample from a real 2600 playing my translation of the tune.

bd2600.mp3

 

And here is the corresponding binary (this is more or less the same as bd_plain.bin posted earlier to this thread, but with a few smaller adjustments).

bd2600.zip

884267[/snapback]

 

These are very interesting, and certainly beyond my capabilities. Thanks to you and everyone interested in this subject. I am leaning towards doing a true 'tribute', in that the original music is used, as well as the original levels. But I'm wondering, are the guys pushing the sound envelope (pun intended) truly being as innovative as the graphics guys? Can we do any better than what we've heard so far?

 

Thanks

A

[djmips]

In case of the Boulder Dash intro tune I think that the 2600 can actually reproduce it fairly well making all Red Box/Blue Box stuff unnecessary.

 

The mp3 file below is a sample from a real 2600 playing my translation of the tune.

bd2600.mp3

 

And here is the corresponding binary (this is more or less the same as bd_plain.bin posted earlier to this thread, but with a few smaller adjustments).

bd2600.zip

884267[/snapback]

 

These are very interesting, and certainly beyond my capabilities. Thanks to you and everyone interested in this subject. I am leaning towards doing a true 'tribute', in that the original music is used, as well as the original levels. But I'm wondering, are the guys pushing the sound envelope (pun intended) truly being as innovative as the graphics guys? Can we do any better than what we've heard so far?

 

Thanks

A

884439[/snapback]

 

 

Well. Of course we can do better. Like the pitsound example. I have looked over Andy Mucho's code and documentation to see if I can figure out on how to make it play some Boulderdash music. It is a 3 voice soft synth as Paul has stated, it outputs a new sample every second line (83 cycles for updating the 3 voices) which is a little more forgiving than the Redbox sample, which put out a new sample every line. I'm going to take a look at it and try to post up some results.

 

 

This simple synth uses square wave with variable duty cycle on each voice.

[moderntimes99]

These are very interesting, and certainly beyond my capabilities.  Thanks to you and everyone interested in this subject.  I am leaning towards doing a true 'tribute', in that the original music is used, as well as the original levels.  But I'm wondering, are the guys pushing the sound envelope (pun intended) truly being as innovative as the graphics guys?  Can we do any better than what we've heard so far?

 

Thanks

A

884439[/snapback]

Why not start a competition? Maybe for the whole title screen? (As the music really should work together with a display kernel to be useful.)

 

I attach the source code for my "chip" version of the Boulder Dash tune (in true open source spirit) and encourage anyone who likes to include it in a display kernel for the title screen or try to improve it to do so.

 

bd2600src.zip

 

It will be very interesting to see what can be done along the softsynth path, but so far I think that my attempts towards a "chip" tune version at least has served the purpose of demonstrating that the 2600 is at all capable of playing the tune!

 

From here things can only be improved upon!

 

Best regards,

Moderntimes99

[Paul Slocum]

I think that a good title screen could be made that works with the softsynth. And for the Boulderdash tune it sounds like only two voices are used. Probably one of those softsynth voices could be removed for more screen kernel time.

 

Maybe the tune could be retuned to work without a softsynth, but I know a lot about porting music to the 2600, and it sounds like there are too many notes that are too close together. I really think the softsynth is the better way. It's not really been used in a homebrew before anyway, so it would be cool to get it working.

 

My main problem with the original Boulderdash tune is that it's pretty boring IMO, which is why I'm not very motivated to mess with it. Although I definitely understand the motivation to make the port as close as possible to the original.

 

-paul

[djmips]

Well. Of course we can do better.   Like the pitsound example. I have looked over Andy Mucho's code and documentation to see if I can figure out on how to make it play some Boulderdash music. It is a 3 voice soft synth as Paul has stated, it outputs a new sample every second line (83 cycles for updating the 3 voices) which is a little more forgiving than the Redbox sample, which put out a new sample every line. I'm going to take a look at it and try to post up some results.

This simple synth uses square wave with variable duty cycle on each voice.

884513[/snapback]

 

Well, here it is. Version one.

 

For future improvements, the square waves could be modified to triangle or sinus shapes but of course, we are talking some more cycles. There are cycles available, especially since the third voice is unused in this tune. Nevertheless, we have to keep in mind the cycles one might want to use for the display.

 

Also, I have not worked on adjusting the envelopes.

 

Some background on this technique. I was working on a soft synth (inspired by Bruce Tomlin's RedBox), when I stumbled upon Andy's code in the Stella archive. I had seen it when it first came out but I wasn't interested in a soft synth back then and I hadn't realized what it was. I think it's quite well done, and it really has room for improvement (a compliment). Of course, I wish I had written it first.

 

I think it answers the musings that batari had in the 2600 red box demo thread about using direct control over the audio output to create music. I think there's a lot more cool audio potential here.

bdtheme.zip

Edited July 5, 2005 by djmips

[+batari]

Well, here it is. Version one.

886126[/snapback]

Excellent work! I hope this (or a later version) works its way into the game... A state-of-the-art game deserves state-of-the-art music.

[Serguei2]

Hi Andrew

 

I begin to think it was a bad idea to make the original game than a clone you are working. If First Star does not allow you to put your work on the net, no one can enjoy this 2600 Boulderdash.

 

It's good to see Boulderdash on videos but I'll enjoy better playing it on the emulator.

Edited July 5, 2005 by Serguei2

[Godzilla]

Wow, thats impressive. I actually prefer the up-tempo nature of the blippy version, but the soft synth version sure is more impressive for tone accuracy. What's next for the 2600... opera? :-) If it can play samples (like quadrun,) is technically anything possible with 2600 sound, just albeit, kinda off-tune/NIN sounding?

[+Andrew Davie]

It's good to see Boulderdash on videos but I'll enjoy better playing it on the emulator.

886175[/snapback]

 

 

Of course, what you really meant to say was that you would enjoy playing the copy of it on the original cartridge that you purchashed... right?

 

Cheers

A

[Serguei2]

Too bad, I don't have a real 2600. But I bought 2600 action pack years ago. I hope somebody will add this 2600 boulderdash in pack like Activision did and sell it in the stores.

[+Andrew Davie]

Too bad, I don't have a real 2600. But I bought 2600 action pack years ago. I hope somebody will add this 2600 boulderdash in pack like Activision did and sell it in the stores.

886894[/snapback]

 

Given my bad experiences with negotiations for including my work in such products, I find this *highly* unlikely. Better to get yourself a genuine '2600 and play on the real thing!

Cheers

A

[+Andrew Davie]

 

Well, here it is. Version one.

 

I think it answers the musings that batari had in the 2600 red box demo thread about using direct control over the audio output to create music. I think there's a lot more cool audio potential here.

886126[/snapback]

 

Well, I'm quite impressed! I'd definitely like to use something like this. Is this 'state of the art' as far as '2600 music goes? Just how much better can it get?

Cheers

A

[Paul Slocum]

The real state of the art would be softsynth combined with normal Atari sounds for drums and such. Seems like this would be possible.

 

Of course the problem with this is you could never use a soft synth in-game, but it's good for title screens.

 

btw: that softsynth version sounds great.

 

-paul

Edited July 6, 2005 by Paul Slocum

[retrocon]

Could someone do an mp3 of the soft synth version please?

[ZylonBane]

Excellent work!

What? Under Z26Win it sounds like the BoulderDash theme being beaten to death with a sack of accordions. Granted, it's a very old version of Z26Win. Do newer versions handle this mode of sound generation better?

 

EDIT: Grabbed latest version, sounds the same.

 

For those of you who haven't heard the BD theme lately (or at all), here's an MP3 of the original tune running at the proper NTSC rate.

Boulder_Dash.mp3

Edited July 7, 2005 by ZylonBane

[djmips]

Excellent work!

What? Under Z26Win it sounds like the BoulderDash theme being beaten to death with a sack of accordions.

 

 

Actually I love accordians maybe that's why I think it sounds OK?

 

Granted, it's a very old version of Z26Win. Do newer versions handle this mode of sound generation better?

887299[/snapback]

 

Ok that must be it! Which version do you have?

 

In any case, I'll post up an mp3 in a few hours. :-)

 

Also remember this version may be improved upon. I mean, I might get it to sound like death from a satchel of harmonicas... No, I doubt it. Probably it'll stay a sack of accordians or possibly bagpipes.

Edited July 7, 2005 by djmips

[supercat]

Excellent work!

What? Under Z26Win it sounds like the BoulderDash theme being beaten to death with a sack of accordions. Granted, it's a very old version of Z26Win. Do newer versions handle this mode of sound generation better?

 

There is a switch to synchronize the emulator with the sound generation. I have found that this improves things slightly, but the timing still isn't perfect and the sound is thus still a little off.

 

One thing you need to realize about emulators is that they don't operate cycle-for-cycle in real time (Windows won't allow that) but they operate fast enough that most things happen within 1/60 second of when they should. This is mostly fine for display updates (though sometimes things flicker when they shouldn't, or don't flicker when they should), and is even okay for 'conventional' audio (if a note is played a little early or late it's usually no big deal) but the timing jitter causes severe problems with sampled audio. That's just the nature of the beast.