StanJr Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 methinks I smells a plan a-brewin'.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Here's a close-up scan of the Pac-Man pic: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Here's a close-up scan of the Pac-Man pic: I hope you're not also expecting those ghosts to be dancing back and forth like they are in that image. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris++ Posted July 4, 2002 Author Share Posted July 4, 2002 But some of us here see some degree of value in hacks and the folks who try to bring something "better" to the game-playin' public. (Granted, there are the hack "hacks." I'm referring to people who are really, honestly trying to improve a classic.) Anyway, sorry if it seemed I was getting fired up. No apology necessary. "Fired up" is good -- anytime I post a comment that's designed to provoke people into discussion, I assume that we're all friends and we love to talk about our favorite hobby. If we didn't have conversations like this, where everyone doesn't completely agree with each other, but we're all friendly and mature about it, then the only sort of post we'd have in the forum would be "Any good finds today?" Not much to have friendly arguments about there! To tell the truth, Tim, I've never felt at odds with you. You and I both seem to "get it" -- that it's GOOD that everyone thinks differently, or this would be quite a boring world indeed. The whole reason I posted the original message was to get people's views on hacks. Therefore, it was a wholly successful thread (and a lot of fun, as one guy put it far above). I understand the reason people like (well-done, purposeful) hacks a little better now, and the above quote shows Tim summing it up rather well. Thanks, everyone, as always, for the intelligent remarks. -- Peaceful Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Slocum Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 I was looking through the Pac Man code and I believe I've found code for the dancing ghosts. But they don't dance until level 1024. -Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Here's a close-up scan of the Pac-Man pic: Ok, I had a look at the code, this is what is possible: - changing the background color to black (due to the increased contrast the ghost flicker even more) - changing the maze color to yellow - making Pac-Man orange - changing the ghost color to white (again: more contrast, more flicker) - turning the maze upside down (is that really important?) - removing the green bar behind the score - making the score yellow - making the dancing ghosts visible before level 1024 What is not possible, is to change to color of the power pills independently from the ghost colors. They always have the same color. And the size of the score is fixed too. Did I miss something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE146 Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 - turning the maze upside down (is that really important?) uhh.. that actually was the biggest thing I noticed about that pic. I'd say it would be the primary focus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Monkey Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Ok, I had a look at the code, this is what is possible:- changing the background color to black (due to the increased contrast the ghost flicker even more) - changing the maze color to yellow Done - making Pac-Man orange Done - changing the ghost color to white (again: more contrast, more flicker) If you simply change the value for COLUP0 you'll end up with ghosts that never change color... I left the ghosts alone for now. - turning the maze upside down (is that really important?) In progress... - removing the green bar behind the score Done - making the score yellow Done - making the dancing ghosts visible before level 1024 I can't get them to stop dancing now! What is not possible, is to change to color of the power pills independently from the ghost colors. They always have the same color. And the size of the score is fixed too. The power pills will match the ghosts without some new code. I am going to try to alter the GFX for the score to better match the catalogue as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Actually, I would just be happy with a hack that had the right maze and background colors (ie more like the arcade). I wasn't expecting anyone to make it exactly like that picture The purpose of the picture was just to show how much better it looks with the right colors, even though the gameplay is still the same (lousy!). Why couldn't Frye at least have done that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Done Done In progress... Done Done Many thanks! Else Scott might have asked me again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris++ Posted July 4, 2002 Author Share Posted July 4, 2002 Ms. Pac-Man and Junior Pac-Man are more than enough Pac to have in your collection, regarding decent home translations. They're both superior to the first game in the arcade anyway. However, if you really, truly want to play a genuine Pac-Man (first game) at home, I think you'll agree that the VCS is the last system you should hope to find it on, good code or not! :wink: CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE146 Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Ms. Pac-Man and Junior Pac-Man are more than enough Pac to have in your collection, regarding decent home translations. They're both superior to the first game in the arcade anyway. However, if you really, truly want to play a genuine Pac-Man (first game) at home, I think you'll agree that the VCS is the last system you should hope to find it on, good code or not! :wink: Eh? What do you think of A Better Pacman then? I think it's an EXCELLENT translation of the arcade game even though it's a hack! And it's right there on the good old 2600 He even put in the SONG for goodness sake..which takes additional obvious talent in addition to the coding. Not to mention the less obvious addition of the ghost's "sirens" (subdued at first, but then higher and faster as you near the completion of the stage). Man if that version came out back in the day, I'm sure all of us would have had a different memory of the Atari Pacman days.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Ebivision's version is really impressive, and it's only 4K! I'm sure with 8 or even 16K a damn good version could be made. Hey Thomas, can you do.................uh, nevermind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris++ Posted July 4, 2002 Author Share Posted July 4, 2002 NE -- sorry, I wasn't clear. I was talking about the arcade Pac-Man vs. the original one on the 2600. CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 My problem with hacks is about the nature of authorship in the internet age of file trading. The irony here is that most 2600 programmers never got any visible credit on the packaging of their games. For a hacker to claim authorship of his modification is a slap in the face of these poor guys who were typically underpaid, anonymous, and unappreciated. I don't think it is ethical to "publish" a hack without prominently including credit for the original title, publisher, and author (if known). Even if you do this, since only the raw files are going to circulate the internet, not the metadata, over time the authorship issue will become increasingly confusing. If not for definitive sites like AtariAge that set the facts straight, the average 2600-emulator user who may never have lived through the original 2600 era is not going to know what the original versions of these games are let alone who wrote them. It's similar to the debate over colorization, although worse because it's so much easier to make derivitave 2600 works than it is to release altered movies. It's also similar to the use of samples in pop music. So many of today's hits are recycled hooks from the 70s that today's kids don't associate those hooks with the originals anymore. It took a lot of effort, for instance, to create the deep resonant drum tone in Led Zeppelin's When the Levee Breaks. It took a lot less work to drop the sample into your song. I think some hacks are great, but I do think they get spoiled when the hack creator seems more interested in the recognition that comes from passing himself off as a videogame auteur crediting the original creators who did all the hard work for them. They can never be anything more than co-creators, even if they modify the code rather than just the data. If they are looking for more than that, they should write a game from scratch. Then they will gain more of an appreciation for what the original programmers went through, even more so due to the primitive tools they had to use back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris++ Posted July 5, 2002 Author Share Posted July 5, 2002 Agreed on nearly all counts. I see the motive behind SOME people's altered games (certainly not most) as being self-credit and attention-getting. But not all, and I understand the other side of it now -- people are merely curious to see souped-up versions of old games, mainly just for fun. 2600 fans probably should've seen this coming eventually. I also agree that making new titles is definitely more impressive than screwing around with older ones, no matter how much longer it takes; but as Al pointed out, hacking usually serves as the inception of one's future programming achievements. Also, regarding most of the AA aficionados, the game's author is, in nearly all cases, already known, or easily looked up. They weren't during the actual Atari era, granted, but they are now. I like your analogies (Bonzo's drums being dropped into that stupid Beastie Boys song was a travesty and a sacrilege). Hacks are indeed a bit like the colorization of old movies, but as long as the guys who like to make hacks keep them down to a limit, and only make the stuff available here on the site, hopefully the original cartridges, still largely on sale, will never be outweighed in quantity by the altered ROM files. CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 @ Lost Monkey or Thomas: can you post your Pac-Man hacks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Monkey Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 @ Lost Monkey or Thomas: can you post your Pac-Man hacks? The WIP can be found here: http://www.geocities.com/nosajeelrap/PacHack.htm This hack has the colours changed, the numbers drawn closer to the catalogue's, (although they can't be made taller without a rewrite), the colour band behind the scores removed and (clumsy) dancing ghosts. The flicker is TERRIBLE! I am still working on the maze inversion, but I haven't had much spare time.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEBRO Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 Another idea -- could somebody find a way to hack 2600 Donkey Kong? Just make Mario hang in the air for an extra couple frames, so you can clear barrels in a standing jump. Also, find some space to give some closure to the game (yes, I've been reading the Digital Press board...) -- turn the DK sprite upside down or cause him to fall. Or FROWN or something. Now that makes the game more interesting to me. Can it be done? I have been looking at the Donkey Kong disassembly off and on. See Thomas, I'm trying and hopefully I can add a disassembly too I don't know if you can add anything else to this code (well maybe the extended jump air time ). This code is pretty tight as it is. Dan used pretty much all of the 4096 bytes he had available. Now I'm sure Thomas maybe able to optimise it and squeeze some more out of it though but adding all of that, it would take a miracle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Room 34 Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 - changing the background color to black (due to the increased contrast the ghost flicker even more) Is that why the background is blue? I always wondered, of everything they changed, why couldn't they have at least done the colors right, but this would explain it. - making the dancing ghosts visible before level 1024 Now come on, Thomas. You know we are definitely expecting this one from you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 You can see how the flickering is more prominent when a game ends and the screen goes into the color cycling/attract mode. I would guess if the background was black and the ghosts were a darker color, it wouldn't be as annoying.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 I have been looking at the Donkey Kong disassembly off and on. See Thomas, I'm trying and hopefully I can add a disassembly too I don't know if you can add anything else to this code (well maybe the extended jump air time ). This code is pretty tight as it is. Dan used pretty much all of the 4096 bytes he had available. Now I'm sure Thomas maybe able to optimise it and squeeze some more out of it though but adding all of that, it would take a miracle. When you have made some progress with your disassembly, you can send it to me and I'll have a look. The jump time shouldn't be a big problem, the other things might be possible too, if you can remove something that isn't 100% necessary (like the attract mode in River Raid). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 Lost Monkey: Thanks! Nice job with that. Here's a screenshot of it, in case anyone is curious: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 Lost Monkey: Thanks! Nice job with that. Here's a screenshot of it, in case anyone is curious: Wow, and I was only kidding about implementing the dancing ghosts!!! ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 He did a great job with it. Personally, the flickering doesn't bother me as much- at least you can see the ghosts now! Btw, if you check out the picture I have on my Easter egg entry for this game, you'll notice that the ghosts and power pills are not all the same color! It's easier to notice with an emulator. From a programming standpoint, what would be the reason for doing this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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