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 Barnstorming - Game #1 - 32.04 - What the...?!?!!


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#51 RCorcoran OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 10:12 AM

Mountain = molehill.

This is - without a doubt - one of the most ridiculous arguments I've seen in some time. "Whether or not a videogame record was achieved legitimately." Cripes, is there some kind of Barnstorming High Score Prize I'm unfamilar with? Is there a cash prize or a governmental position at stake? No? Then what's the big friggin' problem?

You guys are tearing up game code, looking for loopholes. You've all but called Ron and Todd cheats and liars. You're playing the game over and over, trying to duplicate the feat and, when you can't, you say it's impossible. Maybe or maybe not, but this is getting truly stupid with regards to the obsessions with discovering "The TRUTH!"

People, please, get a grip. It's a 20-year old Atari high score. Don't start arguing about ethics, morals, cheating, etc. This is completely assinine.


Snider-man:

Thank you. You are right on the money here. Yes, it is a 20 year old game and no there are no prizes, positions, etc. at stake or up for grabs. Yes, we do offer prizes and such for our events, but nothing was given to Todd for this achievement. I like Steve's point... Todd did disprove the very programmers at Activision who said he absolutely could NOT achieve 5.51 on Dragster because their test program couldn't do it. He went there in person and proved them wrong... Once Todd get's back from the MoA event, I'll invite him here and this can be settled once and for all. :)

#52 Atarian7 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 10:16 AM

there are two or one people who have said it is impossible

#53 Lost Monkey OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 10:45 AM

Mountain = molehill.

This is - without a doubt - one of the most ridiculous arguments I've seen in some time. "Whether or not a videogame record was achieved legitimately." Cripes, is there some kind of Barnstorming High Score Prize I'm unfamilar with? Is there a cash prize or a governmental position at stake? No? Then what's the big friggin' problem?

You guys are tearing up game code, looking for loopholes. You've all but called Ron and Todd cheats and liars. You're playing the game over and over, trying to duplicate the feat and, when you can't, you say it's impossible. Maybe or maybe not, but this is getting truly stupid with regards to the obsessions with discovering "The TRUTH!"

People, please, get a grip. It's a 20-year old Atari high score. Don't start arguing about ethics, morals, cheating, etc. This is completely assinine.


The fact that there is no "prize" doesn't mean that the scores do not matter... if they didn't matter, then there is absolutely no reason for TG to keep records or to even exist...

I am not advocating a "witch hunt" either, I would recommend that the inquiring parties wait until evidence is forthcoming (or denied) before commenting on this further, as I sense that there is already some resentment forming here...

#54 StanJr OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 11:07 AM

Snider-man, you prove my point. If there is no big deal about it, why would some one be scared to let others know their strategy. I would think it would be interesting to find out how somebody does something extrodinary like that. I can solve Private Eye Case 4 with over a minute left, want to know how? I'll tell you in a couple of days when the strategy goes up on Atarinvader.com. I'm not afraid someone will steal my strategy and do me one better, I AM HOPING THEY WILL. Its all about the fun, not who's got what.

Would one of these guys commit ritualistic suicide if I uncovered their method of getting such a low (or high) score and beat them with it? Is it realy THAT serious?

We're on the same side, I'm not witch hunting anybody, or trying to be a jerk, but I think guarding video game strategies like they were military defense secrets is a bit absurd.

#55 Chris++ OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 11:28 AM

We have discussed this at great length. The TG attorneys have *cautioned* us on this as it *can* be construed as copyright violation...


This is COMPLETE NONSENSE. A game and its images are copyrighted by the software company. That's it.

Anyone who guards his strategies as though they make him special... #@$!!?!!#@

(The rest of this message has been edited into the ether, in the interest of preventing my inadvertently starting a flame-o-rama yet again.)

(Hey, Tim! There's a great idea for an Oink! hack: Flame-O-Rama!)

...They're games. GAMES! Any idiot who makes a living...

(Jeez, I'm still going! No wonder you guys get so defensive around me. Yeah, okay, Chris, blah blah blah..)

...It's stuffy dopes like this Todd fellow who lower our community's average friendliness (and intelligence level).

(Jeez, I just now finished my rant? Maybe I need to play Sky Diver and watch the guy splatter a few times, so I can vent on my own time.)

:D

-- Peaceful Chris
(Hunting on the Emoticon window for a peace symbol)

Oh, well...this'll have to do:

:love:

(Yes, it's true. I am secretly in love with Todd, and my obsession is being twisted into remarks on this board. I know I'm not fooling anyone. Todd, call me, damn you! You marvelous bloody BASTARD!)

#56 Jeffy Arensmeyer OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 11:37 AM

 

...You've all but called Ron and Todd cheats and liars...

...You are right on the money here..


Well, you can take what you think and...

I'm terribly afraid you guys are right. :( My comments have been pointed and suggestive.    :sad:

I apologize to Todd and Ron, right now. It wouldn't surprise me if Todd elected to not to wade into this topic at all.

My goal is to validate a score that seems impossible and to subdue my fears that TG couldn't hold a legitimate contest, based upon the recent announcement of the 2600 DECA.

Twin Galaxies'.

With that said, I'm still very curious about the method and documentation of this score, as several of you are and are not. That's all I've wanted all along and I hope too many of you weren't offended by the methods I chose. However, [i]the facts, and answers (or lack thereof) still remain
.  :ponder:

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#57 Lost Monkey OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 11:39 AM

It's stuffy dopes like this Todd fellow who lower our community's average friendliness (and intelligence level).

CF


I don't know Todd... but I do know that he HASN'T EVEN HAD A CHANCE TO RESPOND HERE... why are you blaming him for anything? In what way has his setting of a record (20 years ago) made him deserving of the term "stuffy dope"...?

..and the lowering of the average friendliness.. YOU are calling someone whom you've never met, and who hasn't issued a single letter of response to this issue.. a "stuffy dope"... [/irony]

#58 Chris++ OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 11:40 AM

Well, I don't apologize for expressing my honest opinion. There's nothing wrong with being opinionated, Jeff. It separates us from the dead. Stick to your guns, man! You owe nobody an apology.

Mr. Monkey: Read my whole post. IF IT'S TRUE that he won't share tips with others, then yes, he's stuffy. My accuracy is not unfriendliness. Don't add to the cess pool, kid. I'm beggin' ya.

-- Peaceful Chris (Believe it or not...
look up "opinion" in the dictionary, folks)

#59 Jeffy Arensmeyer OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 11:54 AM

 

...There's nothing wrong with being opinionated, Jeff. It separates us from the dead. Stick to your guns, man! You owe nobody an apology...


Thanx. But I do not and will not apologize for my opinions, because they are valid. I've apologized for my method of expressing them; that's all.  :|

And I'm sure Todd's ears are burning, wherever he is, because he's been drug through the broken glass without even being here. :roll:


Now, I'll grab the torches if someone else can grad the pitchforks...

...ugh...

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#60 Thomas Jentzsch OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 11:56 AM

Now I'm sure that this topic is going into a direction I really do not like. :sad: :sad: :sad:

#61 StanJr OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 12:03 PM

Just for the record, and to make Thomas happy :) , I am NOT attacking anyone. I don't know Todd, and have not seen him post, so I have no idea what kind of cat he is.

I simply found it absurd that a video game strategy was top secret info and guarded like precious jewels.

Everyone who is attacking anything can back off, there is no reason for it.

I ask for two things:

Proof that the score is legit or no.
Rational, intelligent, justification for hoarding video game strategies (optional really, its more of a sidebar)

#62 Lost Monkey OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 12:08 PM

Mr. Monkey: Read my whole post. IF IT'S TRUE that he won't share tips with others, then yes, he's stuffy. My accuracy is not unfriendliness. Don't add to the cess pool, kid. I'm beggin' ya.

-- Peaceful Chris (Believe it or not...
look up "opinion" in the dictionary, folks)


Maybe you should re-read your post Chris... it doesn't say "IF IT'S TRUE". You posted a direct statement. If that is not what you meant.. that is not what you should have posted.

I am not trying to "add to the cesspool" either, but this thread had already gotten out of hand with enough "unfriendliness" before the name calling (disguised as opinions) appeared...

#63 Chris++ OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 12:09 PM

Understood and well-stated as always, Stan & Jeff. I'll never get any points for being tactful, but it's really amazing how surprised people are when one has a strong opinion.

If my stuff sounds like an attack, then no worries, I'll stop. But I can never resist using my voice (text voice?) when I see something ridiculous, and the strategy-guarding goes against my whole gaming-community-contribution motif.

Monkey: Okay, understood.

#64 Jeffy Arensmeyer OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 12:36 PM

 

...Whenever you move the plane up or down, the throttle is disabled...every frame...move the plane only a little bit...your time will become higher...


Thanx for hanging around Thomas, even though things have gotten "bouncy". :D

Since you are more adept at "visualizing and deconstructing" code than most of us, is there the possibility of a quirk in the game that disables the "throttle disable" when the plane is moved? :?

I was thinking of something similar to the Space Invaders-Double Bullet trick. (Hold the fire button on boot up and you get two player missiles instead of one.

Could there be something in the code that freaks out if this, or something similar, happens and causes the disable throttle function to get skipped? :?

Just an idea...

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#65 NE146 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 12:44 PM

Anyone who guards his strategies as though they make him special IS an ass,


Well not to drift *too* far off subject here but I kept my long held secret of how to get an extra life in Space Invaders part 2 / Deluxe secret for over 20 years! :D It was only about 2 years ago that I finally gave it up to Rogers Classic Arcade Tips and Tricks, and now of course it's on every mame history.dat and on Space Invaders strategy guide out there.

Why did I keep it a secret? I don't know.. I don't think it's because I was an ass or stuffy. I guess I was only 10 and it was fun being one of the few 'in the know' especially when Space Invaders was king of the hill (see last paragraph for reminiscing of the moment). So a videogame strategy CAN be top secret and guarded like precious jewels. Whether we disagree or not, it's all up to the person isn't it? :) Who says you have to reveal anything of yours or not.

The point is, whether you want to share or not is your own business and I guess Twin Galaxies just isn't about to make those assumptions for other people! The name of their game is 'high scores' so naturally you'd expect a higher degree of sensitivity about the subject from them.

As for me, I'll gladly share my secrets to all these days. :D Like the awesome Pacman 9th key "stunt" pattern I posted in another thread. ;)

(sidebar)
Ok now I remember why I kept the Space Invaders trick secret. It may not seem like such a big deal now but back in the day I remember in the arcades people would wonder what the heck I was doing as I seemingly shot into empty space for a long time. They'd laugh and think I sucked, but then mockery would turn to astonishment as I quickly finished the stage and magically acquired an unprecedented 5th life! (space invader defaults at that time were set to give you 3 lives with one extra life at 15000). Of course these were the days when S.I. was king and people would actually WATCH others play Space Invaders. :lol:


Here's my 'secret' trick below if you're curious.

These tricks work on Space Invaders Part II or Space Invaders Deluxe. The machine will award you a bonus life during the intermission if you were able to wipe out the previous screen in 55 shots or less. Of course, this is very difficult to do. However, you can take advantage of the famous 8-bit rollover bug in early arcade machines by firing OVER 255 shots, thereby rolling over the shot counter! Just make sure you can wipe out the remaining invaders in under 55 shots after you roll the counter over

#66 Scott Stilphen OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 12:47 PM

So if Todd doesn't agree to release the video footage of his record game, then what's to stop someone from taping it? It will be in plain view of some 2K people. From what Thomas and Jeff have said about the game, technically it shouldn't be possible, so I'd be very interested in seeing how that time can be achieved with a real (unmodified) cart. His strategy could inadvertently take advantage of some programming quirk or bug in the game. A possibility? You bet. No one knows that better than me :)

I should point out that TG's rules on challenging someone's scores (pg 30-34)- a challenger with a reasonable complaint (which Jeff has) will be heard, and the player who's score is in question must agree to duplicate his game in front of witnesses, or the score will be removed. Which is I guessing is what happened with that 30:01 score listed in book :)

Why wouldn't someone want to share their knowledge of how they beat a particular game. If I spent 20+ years playing a particular game, I'd be more than happy to share the info (but that's me). It's like going to see Hendrix or Van Halen in concert, and they have their backs turned to you the whole time, b/c they don't want anyone stealing their technique. Todd is well-known in the TG 'realm', but his scores are just as open to scrutiny as anyone elses - TG's words, not mine.

#67 Chris++ OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 12:52 PM

It's okay being a stuffy ass if you're ten years old. ;)

I think I've realized why all of my strong opinions come off so offensively regarding others' perspectives when they read my words here. None of you know me in real life, and it's funny how hard it is to remember that one's personality doesn't completely carry through in text. Therefore, my normal penchant for poking at least as much fun at myself as at others is sadly out of balance when I react strongly to something here.

So, in the interest of balance: If Todd's a stuffy ass for guarding his strategies, then I'm a complete dork for caring so much about others' pretentious attempts at nobility that I instantly respond to a thread about a game that has never interested me in the slightest (Barnstorming). I know it's about a lot more than that, but a wannabe Internet writing king like me will take any opportunity to flaunt his rhetoric, which itself tends to be largely derivative of Douglas Adams, Monty Python characters and George Carlin.

Nah, it's funnier when it's off the cuff. Oh, well. I tried.


Me again

#68 Lost Monkey OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 12:57 PM

@Jeffy: I was thinking of the ColecoVision Donkey Kong trick of pressing 2x on the joystick to climb ladders faster...

...getting into the code to find the tricks... hmmm.. why don't you just clone humans or something else less prone to causing an ethical debate? ;)

Finding the code for the horizontal motion shouldn't be too hard. It would be really easy if the HMP0/HMP1 was addressed directly, rather than with a variable... but I don't have the time to look at it right now... maybe later...

Maybe Thomas will find the hidden tanks in the code?

@Chris 8)

#69 Jeffy Arensmeyer OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:53 PM

 

...Whether we disagree or not, it's all up to the person isn't it? :)

So very true. Maybe a video shouldn't be shared with all of us, but surely it can be shown to someone unbiased that can let us know approximately how it was done. To simply dismiss all of the questions and comments raised to this point would be not "in line" with the integrity of having a score board. :ponder:

...by firing OVER 255 shots...in under 55 shots after you roll the counter over


Could you also use your 0th or 1st shot after 255 to kill the last guy, thus performing the trick? :? Dang. You've got me wanting to try this out now. :D

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#70 NE146 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 2:30 PM

Could you also use your 0th or 1st shot after 255 to kill the last guy, thus performing the trick? Dang. You've got me wanting to try this out now.


:lol: have fun as it's a great trick! :) I'm not sure about the "0th" shot (as I've always had a couple of invaders left), but I'd imagine it would! It's pretty easy in mame to set a cheat on the memory location that counts the shots. So you could theoretically leave it at zero and see what happens when you clear the stage. In the past I've set it at some number below 55 just to see the extra man pop up in the intermission between stages at EVERY stage. (yeah I'm amused easily sometimes) :ponder:

Just a hint if you're going to try this trick, obviously the best place to try it out on is the 1st stage as that's when the invaders are highest and you stand the best chance of shooting out 255 shots in time. You'll have to judge just how small a grouping of invaders you should leave behind to make sure they have to cover the most amount of territory to descend. But be careful you don't whittle them down too much as they'll move faster and you'll have no chance of shooting 255 in time. Finally by the time you actually get off that 255th shot, the remaining invaders will be plenty LOW, and that's when you're Space Invader skills are needed. (Remember also that invaders can't shoot you when they're on the lowest row). Have fun ;) (ps. If you're REALLY good you'd shoot the lowest invader last and thus get the 'rainbow' bonus with the extra life for extra arcade "3l33tn3ss" :P

#71 RCorcoran OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 3:09 PM

 

...You've all but called Ron and Todd cheats and liars...

...You are right on the money here..


Well, you can take what you think and...

I'm terribly afraid you guys are right. :( My comments have been pointed and suggestive.    :sad:

I apologize to Todd and Ron, right now. It wouldn't surprise me if Todd elected to not to wade into this topic at all.

Accepted, although it really isn't necessary. I too am here because I love Atari. I have dedicated much of my life to it and will continue to do so regardless.

My goal is to validate a score that seems impossible and to subdue my fears that TG couldn't hold a legitimate contest, based upon the recent announcement of the 2600 DECA.

If only I had a nickle for every time I've heard (or read) "That score is BS and totally impossible!" I would be rich!... :) Regarding the Timed Deca, Robert has stated he will only accept videotape submissions for this event and that ALL submissions will be eligible for posting to TG. Again, the disclaimer must be there that this will only happen "with player permission". All of this comes about because of the top videogame players being so protective of their techniques. While Billy, Chris, Steve, Darren, and many others are wonderful people, they are adamant about protecting their strategies. I know that is hard for some people to wrap their brains around, but that is reality and must be respected, even if not agreed with.

Twin Galaxies'.

Walter has worked very hard to get where he is over the past 20 years. Each of us, editors and referees, struggle to ensure we don't let him down. On the other side of that coin is the commitment to not let the players down either.

With that said, I'm still very curious about the method and documentation of this score, as several of you are and are not. That's all I've wanted all along and I hope too many of you weren't offended by the methods I chose. However, [i]the facts, and answers (or lack thereof) still remain
.  :ponder:

I'm sure Todd will not shun this thread/site. He may get a little bent by some of the comments, but in the end I think everyone will be satisfied.

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#72 Thomas Jentzsch OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 3:20 PM

I'm sure Todd will not shun this thread/site. He may get a little bent by some of the comments, but in the end I think everyone will be satisfied.

I'm very glad to hear that. :)

BTW: Please try using the quote tag instead of colors and bold. IMO that makes the board more consistent and easier readable.

#73 Doc4 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 3:53 PM

Stan:

You do sound like an ass here, but I'll leave that alone.


Holy Shmoly Batman. First off we need to make sure we are not bashing Todd here. He hasn't even stopped in for a visit.

Second of all this quote was extremely uncalled for and rude to Stan. I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet.

Back to my other topic, why couldn't this score be a typo?

#74 Scott Stilphen OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 4:37 PM

It's a 20-year old Atari high score.


I don't believe it is. It's not listed in the TG book (1st edition) In fact, none of the Barnstorming scores are his.

#75 Scott Stilphen OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 12, 2002 4:47 PM

Todd did disprove the very programmers at Activision who said he absolutely could NOT achieve 5.51 on Dragster because their test program couldn't do it. He went there in person and proved them wrong... Once Todd get's back from the MoA event, I'll invite him here and this can be settled once and for all. :)


Ron, when was this? I never heard that story before. Are there any newspaper articles or other info about it online anywhere?




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