classic battle atari 8bit vs commodore 64

[Gunstar]

Arcade platformers off the top of my head... GhostsnGoblins, GhoulsnGhosts, Black Tiger, Strider. Wonder Boy, Rainbow Islands, New Zealand Story

Ah, yes, I should have remembered at least either one of the Ghost platformers (I was actually playing Ghastly Night (Knight?) by Brothers productions just earlier today!), but the rest I was never a fan of, that is, never tried (Strider) or maybe even saw (the rest) those games at the arcade. I did eventually play the ST version of Strider about a decade ago. Black Tiger does ring a bell, I'll have to look into that one, maybe another I played on the ST? The rest I've heard of, maybe seen screen shots from the arcade or some system port, but that's it.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Gunstar

[shoestring]

Black Tiger is a classic, love the FM sound track and spot effects.

 

One of the best arcade platformers out there.

[Gunstar]

Black Tiger is a classic, love the FM sound track and spot effects.

 

One of the best arcade platformers out there.

Just looked it up, I either played it on the ST or Amiga or both, about 10-15 years ago when I had them. At the time though, I was burned out on 2D 8/16-bit games as was mainly interested in 3D games on the ST and Amiga (and 32-bit consoles). I did dabble with them a little though, just to see what I missed back in the day when I clung to my Atari 8-bit and held off going next-generation (until the Atari Jaguar).

 

I, of course, got over my 2D burnout and being mesmerized by all things 3D and love my vintage 2D games again too, especially Atari 8-bit.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Gunstar

[Mr Robot]

How did I forget Bionic Commando!?

 

Strider is a great game, well worth the time required to learn the controls.

 

Yes Black Tiger was on the ST (and where I first played it)

[carlsson]

Quite possibly Commodore didn't provide preview documentation on the C64 so software houses would be able to prepare programs right after the launch, but rather that was something released over time, whether it was within one or two years time. In that case, games developers looking to get first mover advantage may have been annoyed by not getting early docs and have to figure out things.

[popmilo]

Quite possibly Commodore didn't provide preview documentation on the C64 so software houses would be able to prepare programs right after the launch, but rather that was something released over time, whether it was within one or two years time. In that case, games developers looking to get first mover advantage may have been annoyed by not getting early docs and have to figure out things.

Don't know about very early years, but when I got my commodore, we got those thick hardware reference manuals that had every chip, byte and bit explained with full docs of kernel routines etc. Even schematics of motherboard if I remember it correctly (Could be that was in another book.).

 

Think it was just it took years to figure out best practices and for knowledge to spread.

[peteym5]

 

Are you sure ? They were very open about the platform from the beginning and provided software houses with "shitloads" of documentation and whatever they needed. The general public had access to the Programming reference manual which also had schematics in the backand and a description of what all the chips did.

It is possible. However, I know COMPUTE! magazine was releasing books on both Commodore, Atari, and other platforms. But as I also stated, I believe when programmers started communicating with each other and started collaborating on programming, we started seeing better software for various platforms. Started with dialup services like compuserve, before the Internet became wide spread.

 

This also could be do to people using their DOS and Windows PCs to compile 6502 code with MADS, CC65, XASM, etc. and able to run the stuff right away in an Emulator. Along with graphic programs like GIMP, and font editors like Envision. (I do not know if there is a Commodore font editor) Edit and play music and sound effects with programs like Raster Music Tracker, Goat Tracker, etc.

[shoestring]

carlsson has a good point, not sure if there was preview documentation either but I'd say probably not.. based on how slow sales were in the first year due to lack of software.

 

The C64 Programmers Reference Guide, which was a Commodore publication was definitely available within the same year the machine was released.

 

But it took at least two years before decent titles were released.

[peteym5]

I noticed the prior C64 vs A8 thread, they did a not of comparison based on still screen shots, but very little with the game in motion, nor did we hear the sounds. That people claim is done better with Commodore 64 games vs Atari 8 bit. But when we look at videos or play these games on emulators, we actually see the software in action. I am not going to say which is better. One game I tried is BoulderDash. Looks identical on the Commodore 64, but what is going on with the sound? Maybe whoever did the port did not know how to program for the SID chip properly, or they could not duplicate the 4 channel sound effects of the Atari version. Both still are superior to the Apple II, ZX Spectrum, and even the Nintendo version.

 

Pole Position is another example, I am bringing this up because of the recent work people are doing to enhance the Atari 8-bit graphics for the car. Some of the motion on the Commodore 64 version seems real choppy with things jumping around.

 

My issue with Commodore is still with the company itself releasing several 6502 based computer models not compatible with each other, creating an obstacle for developers. I do not see why they could not make this VIC-II chip support a VIC-I mode and have to run VIC-20 software. With the +4, I don't see why they did not just make a Commodore 64 with the built in software, or put it on cartridge for the 64. They did finally do something when they released the Commodore 128. Not sure if Jack Tremial was against that because he was frustrated with the Commodore management around the same time and left.

 

It seems like Atari was able to develop software for the 8-bit early after the 400/800 hit the market. Most likely because they had many game programmers already there that worked on 2600 stuff.

[kiwilove]

For those early buyers of the C-64 - there really wasn't much available to show off what can this machine do? But then they could always open up the case and be surprised what it is like inside? Only to find it to be of so flimsy and fragile construction - no wonder it was available at a cheaper price - than say the 400 or 800.

 

It was the case for the Atari 800 too - I only purchased Star Raiders, Pac man cartridges - tapes of Shamus - and some 3rd rate software of Race in Space, and Matchracer -(with the Atari 800) which I would have only loaded a couple of times and gave up on - as there was little 'fun' with those titles.

I did get Baja Buggies - which was the only decent looking car racing game going - maybe developers should take not of - that if you sent in your high score to the company - they did send me a plastic Gamestar keyring. It was not a pretty item - but they could have provided something of better quality?

 

That it takes around 2-3 years before really exceptional software start turning up - like Miner 2049er, Encounter, Blue Max, Dropzone and so on. But Star Raiders was the exception. Another early title would be Sea Dragon - rather dull looking but with exceptional playability built into it.

 

Harvey

[shoestring]

I noticed the prior C64 vs A8 thread, they did a not of comparison based on still screen shots, but very little with the game in motion, nor did we hear the sounds. That people claim is done better with Commodore 64 games vs Atari 8 bit. But when we look at videos or play these games on emulators, we actually see the software in action. I am not going to say which is better. One game I tried is BoulderDash. Looks identical on the Commodore 64, but what is going on with the sound? Maybe whoever did the port did not know how to program for the SID chip properly, or they could not duplicate the 4 channel sound effects of the Atari version. Both still are superior to the Apple II, ZX Spectrum, and even the Nintendo version.

 

Pole Position is another example, I am bringing this up because of the recent work people are doing to enhance the Atari 8-bit graphics for the car. Some of the motion on the Commodore 64 version seems real choppy with things jumping around.

 

My issue with Commodore is still with the company itself releasing several 6502 based computer models not compatible with each other, creating an obstacle for developers. I do not see why they could not make this VIC-II chip support a VIC-I mode and have to run VIC-20 software. With the +4, I don't see why they did not just make a Commodore 64 with the built in software, or put it on cartridge for the 64. They did finally do something when they released the Commodore 128. Not sure if Jack Tremial was against that because he was frustrated with the Commodore management around the same time and left.

 

It seems like Atari was able to develop software for the 8-bit early after the 400/800 hit the market. Most likely because they had many game programmers already there that worked on 2600 stuff.

I first played Boulderdash on a c64, that was the machine my parents first bought me. The Atari version plays identical, maybe a little faster and smoother than the c64 version but the controls respond and feel identical. I also prefer the colours on the Atari version, c64 version looks a little washed out and less vibrant. One thing that struck me was how similar the sound was between the two versions so Im not sure what you mean. Did you compare the POKEY sfx with the 6581 or the 8580? The SID has several revisions with each sounding slightly different... also if you only compared the sound via emulation then throw in additional variables there since the chip has never been fully reverse engineered therefore emulation is even more of an approximation or guess work. The SID is a digital controlled analog synth which is quite difficult to emulate, quite different to your traditional PSG.

 

Commodore did not want to make their low end 6502 machines compatible with each other, doing so would just ruin their own market having the machines compete with one another. Their philosophy was, if you want to play games, get a c64 .

Edited December 16, 2018 by shoestring

[Osgeld]

For those early buyers of the C-64 - there really wasn't much available to show off what can this machine do? But then they could always open up the case and be surprised what it is like inside? Only to find it to be of so flimsy and fragile construction - no wonder it was available at a cheaper price - than say the 400 or 800.

 

 

uh lets be fair and say that the C64 was released in 82, same as the XL series so its real competition is the XL series ... which are weak and flimsy

 

its also a concept that things that are big and heavy are better quality, which can be true, but can be false as well, a 400 is big and heavy, but its shit to type on, its a bit of a old fashioned notion

 

and if curb weight really meant a single thing, the PET series would be still the most baller computer to this day, swear you have to have a pallet jack to get those bastards on your desk

Edited December 16, 2018 by Osgeld

[shoestring]

^ this

But then they could always open up the case and be surprised what it is like inside? Only to find it to be of so flimsy and fragile construction - no wonder it was available at a cheaper price - than say the 400 or 800.

 

 

I hear this kind of rubbish a lot on this forum. There was nothing wrong with the quality of the PCBs used in the early c64s, easy to work on. Never ripped up a plate through hole, or destroyed any traces. Compare this with a Spectrum or early 80s arcade PCB and you'll agree with me.

 

I agree that the case does not feel as solid as a 800XL but there is nothing wrong with the quality inside, especially for the price and features you're getting.

 

The early models had some bad issues but this improved over time, especially in the c64c model where heat related issues were addressed, a proper aluminium rf shielding was used instead of the flimsy cardboard thing which also helped cool the chips. The video quality also improved significantly in the c64c compared to the breadbox model whilst the video display in the Atari deteriorated for various reasons.

Edited December 16, 2018 by shoestring

[Nebulon]

 

uh lets be fair and say that the C64 was released in 82, same as the XL series so its real competition is the XL series ... which are weak and flimsy

 

its also a concept that things that are big and heavy are better quality, which can be true, but can be false as well, a 400 is big and heavy, but its shit to type on, its a bit of a old fashioned notion

 

and if curb weight really meant a single thing, the PET series would be still the most baller computer to this day, swear you have to have a pallet jack to get those bastards on your desk

 

The XL series is neither weak nor flimsy.

 

And two words: Space Harrier.

[emkay]

The XL series is neither weak nor flimsy.

 

And two words: Space Harrier.

Rescue on Fractalus

Ballblazer

Yoomp!

Rainbow Walker

Dimension X

 

Those are just a bunch of games that , if you compare just the stock machines, the C64 cannot reach.

[emkay]

I'd also like to add Koronis Rift to the list, the game itself is peeing so hard on the C64, it almost sunk

But, the problem is the game itself isn't really finished nor bugfixed on the Atari.

[emkay]

There is another group of games that reached the C64 and ran directly into the trap of sloooooooooooooooow CPU powers.

 

(Almost) all 3D games were unplayable slow.

 

Many games suffer by the available palette. They "say" the games were fine, but they were NOT. Archon needs the palette of the Atari. Koronis Rift needs the palette of the Atari. Bruce Lee looks like an Alien, not like an Asian on the C64. A lot of those games look flattened by the missing palette.

 

Even if many colormixes on the Atari looked weird , the design in the game allows to have the broader range of colors for the "next scene" .

Edited January 3, 2019 by emkay

[VladR]

emkay, you're quite familiar with C64 demos, correct ?

 

Which C64 demos have the best texturing - and by texturing I don't mean a 2-color checkerboard done via fine scrolling like in Ball Blazer or Dimension X, but a properly textured floor/ceiling plane. Doesn't have to have the rotation, just a forward movement.

[emkay]

emkay, you're quite familiar with C64 demos, correct ?

 

Which C64 demos have the best texturing - and by texturing I don't mean a 2-color checkerboard done via fine scrolling like in Ball Blazer or Dimension X, but a properly textured floor/ceiling plane. Doesn't have to have the rotation, just a forward movement.

Don't ask me questions that may lead to your preferred style. Most of the "3D" on the C64 is a small window surrounded by some distracting from the little thingy on the screen graphics.

Edited January 3, 2019 by emkay

[VladR]

Don't ask me questions that may lead to your preferred style. Most of the "3D" on the C64 is a small window surrounded by some distracting from the little thingy on the screen graphics.

This is not about a preferred style. I have merely spent last 3 days optimizing my 6502 texturing routine and after about 7 rounds of refactoring, what was supposed to be a purely pre-calc thing, ended up being real-time (from initial 411,000 cycles down to 85,000 cycles, and there's still ways to bring it down). Accidentally, nonetheless.

 

You're clearly actively (and passionately) watching the C64 scene, as you always have brand new examples of C64 demos available that you fiercely mention in plethora threads.

 

So, I'd merely love to tap into that area of expertise, if that's all right with you.

 

 

And since the next most active 6502 scene (AFAIK) is C64, what better thread to pop the question, if not here ? I want to know what's the current fastest implementation of HiRes plane/floor texturing on C64, ideally in a game, where the precalc can't be hidden behind fake loading screens (e.g. scroller, camera interpolation, screen transitions, etc.), but intro is good too.

 

EDIT: The closest I could find so far (not easy to browse through the C64 prod), is this (timestamp 4:10):

https://youtu.be/zpKcw7naKkw?t=250

 

https://youtu.be/NJ3gEm4Xerg?t=545

Edited January 4, 2019 by VladR

[Irgendwer]

EDIT: The closest I could find so far (not easy to browse through the C64 prod), is this (timestamp 4:10):

 

Another sample:

https://youtu.be/nLIUkBa_mA0?t=126

[VladR]

Another sample:

https://youtu.be/nLIUkBa_mA0?t=126

That's a great one! Thanks!

 

I found the same effect in about a dozen other demos, but never quite like this brick texture.

 

Sure, it repeats 10 times over the surface of polygon, but I understand it's the limitation imposed by ram consumption of dozen other effects and bitmaps in that demo.

 

I don't suppose C64 has a racing game where the road would be fully textured like this?

 

If we consider the awful (yet broadly accepted as ok) frame rate of Test Drive, there's no reason it can't be done.

Although, racing is probably not best example as fine scrolling would kill the cpu via wsync...

 

Wait, I just realized we don't have to use fine scrolling. I'm handling left edge - first byte of the scanline separately anyway, so the curves would be handled automatically anyway.

[shoestring]

Maybe a bad example, but I always loved the music in this game.

 

[BlueMoon_001]

I find these type of threads redundant. It is never how good a machine is, but the humans that program them. A few programmers on here aready stated they can do games on the Commodore 64 just as well as the Atari 8-bit. Both are 6502 machines. The Commodore 64 was the first model that is just about as capable of doing what the Atari 8-bit can do. The Pet and Vic-20 lack in many areas. It seems like the 16/+64 were a step backwards for Commodore.

[emkay]

That's a great one! Thanks!

 

I found the same effect in about a dozen other demos, but never quite like this brick texture.

It's funnier to know that particular this effect is a standard effect using ANTIC on the Atari and some LMS programming.

Racing the beam in that range and to change some bytes on the flow to suggest that "more is going on" isn't very CPU consuming.

Edited January 4, 2019 by emkay