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#1 devwebcl OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:44 AM

Hello,

anybody can suggest which software I can use to transfer real tape programs to a disk image through APE and of course SIO2PC cable?

I have use a couple without success

Kind Regards,

Devwebcl

#2 Kr0tki OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:29 PM

Have you tried WAV2CAS? I suggest you record the tape to a WAV file, use the WAV2CAS utility to convert it to che CAS format, and then the CAS2SIO program (included in WAV2CAS) together with the SIO2PC cable to load it to your Atari.

Let me know of your progress. I am currently deep in the process of building my own tape-converting tool, so I am especially interested in the outcome.

#3 Atari8bitCarts OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 5, 2011 5:16 PM

So did you ever complete the tape conversion utility?

#4 Kr0tki OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 5, 2011 6:10 PM

See the sig.

#5 Atari8bitCarts OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 5, 2011 6:36 PM

duh, how did I miss that :)

#6 devwebcl OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Dec 6, 2011 7:05 AM

I haven't converted any new tape, however the atari800 patch for tape features works as charm. (with some turbo chilean tapes)

#7 w1k OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Dec 6, 2011 7:31 AM

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  • Attached File  tsd.xex   13.01KB   80 downloads


#8 Kr0tki OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Dec 7, 2011 6:56 AM

devwebcl, do you have any technical information regarding the Turbo systems available in Chile? I once visited the retrogames.cl website, but due to the language barrier I couldn't retrieve much by myself. I have only found some writeup about the "Injektor" system, but couldn't find any software that supports it. I would like to add full support for this system in A8CAS, but without the technical details it can't be done.

#9 ijor OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Dec 7, 2011 7:55 AM

devwebcl, do you have any technical information regarding the Turbo systems available in Chile?


I don't know the exact details, but I designed the custom tape system that was later cloned by most turbo systems in Chile.

The turbo itself was the plain software tape turbo concept. Basically, it was just recorded at a higher bitrate and included a custom optimized bootstrap loader. In the case of my implementation the exact bitrate itself was selectable at recording time.

Besides the turbo I also implemented a soft error retry logic. If there was an error when reading a block, the loader would stop and prompt the user to rewind the tape slightly, and press a key. Then the loader would retry reading the relevant block, that would hopefully read ok now, and could continue loading. I considered this retry strategy invaluable for long tapes. I'm sure every Atari tape user would understand :)

To be able to sync the retry, the custom block header included a block number. I don't remember all the details, I would need to dig them if they are important. I know that the retry concept was cloned in Chile, in several different ways. Some systems, I think, included the retry logic only, without any turbo.

#10 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Dec 7, 2011 8:21 AM

That's cool.

I suppose for the retry you'd need to wait for sufficient amount of "Space" so you don't start the timing at beginning of block read at the wrong time.

I made a turbo system too. It was fairly simple.

Before calling SIO, a VB Immediate was set up which forced the faster AUDF values so the write would be faster.
Once I was happy with that, although not totally since I could never approach the highest bitrate that the handler could read I did another which just wrote a boot record or two, then the rest of the file as a single block at increased speed.

The main thing I used it with was my copy of AsmEd which probably booted in under half the time an 8K file otherwise would. Of course with that method, you'd probably be screwed if the tape got stretched too much.

#11 Kr0tki OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Dec 7, 2011 2:08 PM

I don't know the exact details, but I designed the custom tape system that was later cloned by most turbo systems in Chile.

Then you are talking about something different. The Injektor system included a hardware modification of the tape recorder, which allowed to reach speeds of 3600 baud.

The turbo itself was the plain software tape turbo concept. Basically, it was just recorded at a higher bitrate and included a custom optimized bootstrap loader. In the case of my implementation the exact bitrate itself was selectable at recording time.

What max baudrate could be achieved? From my experience 900 baud was about as fast as possible on my XCA12 (with custom loader of course).

In Poland there was a system called Turbo 2600, which involved a more advanced format of blocks - the header used to estimate baudrate was longer (12 different bytes), which allowed for more precise baudrate detection. One particular user reports that Turbo 2600 allowed him to reach 1300 baud on a standard XC12, while he could only reach 900 baud with the standard block format.

Besides the turbo I also implemented a soft error retry logic. (...) To be able to sync the retry, the custom block header included a block number.


I've heard that Mirage Software used a similar system on some of their comercially-published tapes.

Also, there was a program called "100%" (published in Tajemnice Atari issue 7/1991) that modified the OS tape handler to achieve a similar functionality. However it didn't require a custom block format; it worked with all standard recordings. So it was possible to first load "100%", then a copy utility, and make working copies of error-prone recordings.

Edited by Kr0tki, Wed Dec 7, 2011 2:17 PM.


#12 ijor OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 9, 2011 9:56 AM

Then you are talking about something different. The Injektor system included a hardware modification of the tape recorder, which allowed to reach speeds of 3600 baud.


Oh, sorry, I thought you were talking about software turbo, which was far much more popular. I was aware there was (at least) one hardware tape turbo in Chile, but I'm afraid I don't know much about it.

Judging from the article you link, I seem to recall I was in touch with the developer back at the day. Not sure if I could contact him nowadays, though.

What max baudrate could be achieved? From my experience 900 baud was about as fast as possible on my XCA12 (with custom loader of course).


I didn't deal with tapes for too long. I don't dare to mention specific numbers because honestly, I'm not sure I remember exactly. What I do can tell you is that, IMHO, the correct answer is that it depends on several factors. The major factor is perhaps if you are reading with the same tape as you recorded or not. When using the same tape you can even skip the whole bitrate measurement logic altogether, and get some amazing higher rates. Of course, this is not possible for commercial tapes.

...the header used to estimate baudrate was longer (12 different bytes), which allowed for more precise baudrate detection...


I remember I used a completely custom procedure to measure bitrate, and that it was important. But I don't remember requiring (much) longer sequence. Did you really mean 12 bytes ? Sounds too much anyway. The "standard" OS routine is, of course, severly limited, and IIRC it uses a table with a hard limit around the 900 bps range.

Nowadays, with our current knowledge and after some threads discussing the topic here in Atariage, I wonder if we shouldn't better skip Pokey serialization and read the SERIN bit directly. For starters, you might posibly even implement clock re synchronization on every bit transition (a feature implemented by most advanced UARTs). And the idea of trying some more efficient encoding (even RLL) is rather tempting.

Re: retry logic

However it didn't require a custom block format; it worked with all standard recordings.


Yes, it is possible using checksums, but it is not nearly as efficient as numbering the blocks. In my case I used a custom block for other reasons as well, including increasing the block size. So adding the block number wasn't a problem. But yes, non custom format allows other usages.

I've heard that Mirage Software used a similar system on some of their comercially-published tapes...
Also, there was a program called "100%" (published in Tajemnice Atari issue 7/1991) that modified the OS tape handler to achieve a similar functionality.


Well, I did it several years before. But, as it often happens, they might have developed the idea independently.

#13 Kr0tki OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 9, 2011 5:01 PM

Did you really mean 12 bytes ? Sounds too much anyway.

An optional part of the Turbo 2600 system was a hardware interface, which allowed to connect a standard tape recorder to the Atari. Using this interface it was possible to reach 2600 baud. I believe that this 12-byte header ($00 $00 $ff $ff $ff $ff $fe $fc $fc $f8 $f0 $c7) was designed specifically for this speed.

#14 devwebcl OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 9, 2011 5:38 PM

devwebcl, do you have any technical information regarding the Turbo systems available in Chile?


I don't know the exact details, but I designed the custom tape system that was later cloned by most turbo systems in Chile.


Here in Chile there was a famous turbo with correction copier done by Iljor... maybe there was a typo, is that you Ijor ?

I just remember that has a loader saying: STAC by Iljor.

#15 devwebcl OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 9, 2011 5:45 PM

devwebcl, do you have any technical information regarding the Turbo systems available in Chile? I once visited the retrogames.cl website, but due to the language barrier I couldn't retrieve much by myself. I have only found some writeup about the "Injektor" system, but couldn't find any software that supports it. I would like to add full support for this system in A8CAS, but without the technical details it can't be done.


With some friends we did some turbo copiers as well, changing the values already mentioned. I just has release those copiers (exists some from other guys as well) however not sure if would benefits anyone here (although in our local scene is nice to see again the old local software).

We based our code in the Iljor Stac copier and one small program that appeared in Komputer Kontakt Magazine:
http://www.atariware...otras&Itemid=32

That page has some info from Injektor, however I do not have more information more than the one you can find there. Anyway in the same page you can find the software to copy in injektor format.

If you need any assistance translating Spanish to English, just let me know.

btw, a couple weeks ago there was a retrogaming meeting in Chile, usually there are some "lectures", one of them was about cassettes copiers, here you can find the PDF of it http://www.retrobits.cl/charlas/

Edited by devwebcl, Fri Dec 9, 2011 5:46 PM.


#16 russg OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:44 AM

I guess tape copier programs don't work very well. Here's two I found and briefly tried, but the timing of boot tapes is hard to make the proper lead-in amount. CDT.COM and COPY54K.COM.
These are very old.

Attached Files



#17 CharlieChaplin ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:10 PM

Ah,

referring to german Computer Kontakt magazine, you mean "Speed-Tape" which was written in Atari Basic. It could "convert" tapes to approx. 1000 baud, with the speed (or better the length) of the gaps unchanged. Never tried that program, but I guess, since it was written in Atari Basic, it was most likely limited to programs smaller than 32kbytes. Later they (or Atari Magazin?) published a better program, named "CBAUD" which was working with 1200 Baud (came with a separate copy-program, that converted the standard tapes to higher speed), but was again limited to 37kbytes.

There were also some file-copiers (e.g. Filemover) or file/boot-converters (e.g. BURP) that worked with 800 or 900 Baud (and since they worked under DOS they were also limited to 36k or 37k).. Anyways, here are the software-based tape-speeders I have, as well as some tape-to-disk copier programs... -Andreas Koch.

Attached Files


Edited by CharlieChaplin, Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:12 PM.


#18 devwebcl OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:19 PM

I guess tape copier programs don't work very well. Here's two I found and briefly tried, but the timing of boot tapes is hard to make the proper lead-in amount. CDT.COM and COPY54K.COM.
These are very old.


No, it is totally the opposite. These copier programs were so much reliable and faster than the original system.
If Atari were done this design from the beginning (faster & correction recovery) then many of us would have nightmares loading from tapes ;)

Ah,

referring to german Computer Kontakt magazine, you mean "Speed-Tape" which was written in Atari Basic. It could "convert" tapes to approx. 1000 baud, with the speed (or better the length) of the gaps unchanged. Never tried that program, but I guess, since it was written in Atari Basic, it was most likely limited to programs smaller than 32kbytes. Later they (or Atari Magazin?) published a better program, named "CBAUD" which was working with 1200 Baud (came with a separate copy-program, that converted the standard tapes to higher speed), but was again limited to 37kbytes.


Right, that's the same program Speed-Turbo, thanks for the ATR.

--Devwebcl

#19 russg OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:27 PM

I brought a previous thread back to the top by responding to it. There are numerous tape to disk
copiers. I played some with COPY54K.COM. It only runs under DOS 2.75 (which I never heard
of before). It will dump a single stage boot tape to a disk file. You could then use the same
program to write the disk file back to a tape, I guess. It would take some doing to convert the
tape dump to a disk load file, follow the tape boot process and convert it to a disk load file.
What the original post wanted, I think, is make some tapes from .cas files. I guess COPY54K.COM
could be used to burn a tape from a .CAS file?? The preferred method is to use a standard
tape deck and CAS2WAV program on a PC to make a WAV file, which could then burn a new
tape using WAV2CAS?? I'm sure there are better answers.

Edited by russg, Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:29 PM.


#20 russg OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:25 PM

What the original post wanted, I think, is make some tapes from .cas files. I guess COPY54K.COM
could be used to burn a tape from a .CAS file?? The preferred method is to use a standard
tape deck and CAS2WAV program on a PC to make a WAV file, which could then burn a new
tape using WAV2CAS?? I'm sure there are better answers.


I don't think COPY54K.COM will write a CAS file to tape. It will write a tape immediately after reading
the tape. I copied a one stage commercial tape and then wrote it back out to a blank tape while
the original was still in memory. You can also save the tape data to a disk file, but I don't think you
can write a new tape from the disk file. I used a stock 130XE. COPY54K.COM has to run from
DOS 2.75. I guess it needs extended memory.
I will see if an emulator will play the disk file I made.

Edited by russg, Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:27 PM.


#21 russg OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:46 PM

Nope. Emulators don't read cassette data files. They expect a sound file of the tape, I guess.
At least, the file I made of the data from a tape wasn't recognized. A couple other .cas files I had didn't work either.

#22 russg OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:08 PM


What the original post wanted, I think, is make some tapes from .cas files. I guess COPY54K.COM
could be used to burn a tape from a .CAS file?? The preferred method is to use a standard
tape deck and CAS2WAV program on a PC to make a WAV file, which could then burn a new
tape using WAV2CAS?? I'm sure there are better answers.


I don't think COPY54K.COM will write a CAS file to tape. It will write a tape immediately after reading
the tape. I copied a one stage commercial tape and then wrote it back out to a blank tape while
the original was still in memory. You can also save the tape data to a disk file, but I don't think you
can write a new tape from the disk file. I used a stock 130XE. COPY54K.COM has to run from
DOS 2.75. I guess it needs extended memory.
I will see if an emulator will play the disk file I made.


Yes it does, COPY54K.COM you can write a file saved with it back to tape. You load 'in'
the original tape with the EINLADEN C: 'A'. Then you can save it with an AUSLADEN D:,
giving it a filename. You can quit and come back later and EINLADEN D: and load
memory with the saved file, then you can AUSLADEN C: and write it out.
Here's a digital tape copy of 'KidGrid', that can be written to tape using the above method.

(I'm just noticing that this thread was started in March, long gone. No, this thread was started in
2007, the other disk file to tape thread was started in March. I'm going to bed now. I already
took my medicine.)

Attached Files

  • Attached File  KID1.zip   4.19KB   68 downloads

Edited by russg, Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:14 PM.


#23 BillC OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:19 PM

Hello,

anybody can suggest which software I can use to transfer real tape programs to a disk image through APE and of course SIO2PC cable?

I have use a couple without success

Kind Regards,

Devwebcl

There are a lot of utilities for tape recorders at atarionline.pl

http://translate.goo...j0VwCLpdOViFqLg

#24 russg OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:52 AM



What the original post wanted, I think, is make some tapes from .cas files. I guess COPY54K.COM
could be used to burn a tape from a .CAS file?? The preferred method is to use a standard
tape deck and CAS2WAV program on a PC to make a WAV file, which could then burn a new
tape using WAV2CAS?? I'm sure there are better answers.


I don't think COPY54K.COM will write a CAS file to tape. It will write a tape immediately after reading
the tape. I copied a one stage commercial tape and then wrote it back out to a blank tape while
the original was still in memory. You can also save the tape data to a disk file, but I don't think you
can write a new tape from the disk file. I used a stock 130XE. COPY54K.COM has to run from
DOS 2.75. I guess it needs extended memory.
I will see if an emulator will play the disk file I made.


Yes it does, COPY54K.COM you can write a file saved with it back to tape. You load 'in'
the original tape with the EINLADEN C: 'A'. Then you can save it with an AUSLADEN D:,
giving it a filename. You can quit and come back later and EINLADEN D: and load
memory with the saved file, then you can AUSLADEN C: and write it out.
Here's a digital tape copy of 'KidGrid', that can be written to tape using the above method.

(I'm just noticing that this thread was started in March, long gone. No, this thread was started in
2007, the other disk file to tape thread was started in March. I'm going to bed now. I already
took my medicine.)

Since COPY54K.COM only works in DOS 2.75 as far as I know. Here's DOS275.ATR with
COPY54K.COM on it and the Kidgrid KID1.TMP file on it.

Attached Files


Edited by russg, Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:53 AM.


#25 w1k OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:08 AM

COPY.TSD

LOAD: standard/turbo, save: DISK

thats all




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