The Real Deal About the Atari 1400XL (EXCEL)

[spookt]

Atari did do another package with the 800xl and 1010 (which i think was less then 100 gbp)

 

Dixons Pack - 800XL, 1010 recorder, CX40 joystick plus 5 cassette games (I think) the red Atari branded ones which included the Lone Raider, Invitation to Programming 1, Eastern Front 1941 and some others. It was £99 but later dropped to £79 I think.

 

Ah Christmas in the 80s didn't get much better than that

[+orpheuswaking]

Lone Raider

Chess

Invitiation to Programming 1

Eastern Front 1941

European Countries and Capitals

 

http://orph.atarinet.com/photos/main.php?g2_itemId=3775&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

 

Later they released separate Atarisoft compilation tapes in the same red covers (those are the grey tapes in the picture) I have compilation A and another called Atari Games Compilation (TX9043) that isn't on Atarimania.

[Chris Strong]

The point of my discussion was to dispel the myths that (A) the Atari 1400/1450s without labels all had been thrown away and were rescued from dumpsters and (B) that they were rescued by Atari employes rushing in ahead of the bulldozers to rescue them in New Mexico.

 

No, that's myth. The New Mexico dump consisted of materials from the gradual shutdown of the El Paso plant - computers, consoles, peripherals and several documented games, not ET carts. The whole ET connection sprung up afterwords.

 

No arguments with you there. I was tired and not thinking properly; I have no idea what was in that lot except for what I have read in the scans from the microfiche that were posted here long ago. It was ruined product that could not be resold, but not any prototypes that I know of.

 

In any case, there were no ranks of Atari employees rushing in to save 14xx prototypes from the bulldozers. It was Browning-Ferris industries just dumping manufacturing waste. Had it been coffeemakers, nobody would know or care about it today.

 

That's correct, but not for that reason. New Mexico was not the main dump site, again, it was only for the shutting down of the El Paso plant. The main dump was in Sunnyvale itself, and all the warehouses across the US actually shipped their overstock back there to be dumped.

 

Are you sure that this is because the El Paso plant was closed? Do you remember where you heard that? I'd like to look over information on the closing of that plant, I did not think it happened until later. The documentation I referenced talked about the 1450XLD Tong machines being manufactured there on 7 Feb 1984, so unless they were planning to re-open the plant, I don't think it had been totally shut down in September 1983.

 

Mickey started back in March '84, long before Tramiel. Not sure what you mean by the Amiga mess other than the counter lawsuit launched in August.

 

Oh yes, no arguments on the formation of Amiga and all that, It's well documented. I was trying to point out that the 1400/1450 projects would not have been given up and "trashed" in mid-1983.

 

But I don't think I would call March of 1984 "long before Tramiel". It was four months before Tramiel took over and they went from Warner corporate mismanagement to the Tramiel's whole different style of mismanagement.

 

Regardless, your listings of "By such and such date" are making an assumption that it's talking about the same 1450. It's not.

 

The 1400 and 1450 were both cancelled by Morgan in '83, and then the 1450 was brought back again in '84 (which is what lead to the TONG version).

 

I've been out of the active communication on the Atari community for a number of years, and clearly details have emerged on this that were not well-known 10 years ago...but I think there is some confusion on my post.

 

As I mentioned in my posting, from Curt's scanned pages it is clear on February 7th 1984 that they are clearly discussing the Tong-type board. But from those notes, it was not clear as to when the transition took place...the 1400XL was listed as cancelled on 6 December. And on 7 Feb, they are discussing what must be the Tong 1450XLD.

 

There is no documentation here showing that the first 1450 was cancelled. I don't doubt for a moment that you are correct (although for the sake of this discussion, I was just pointing out that the 1400/1450 projects could not have been thrown away in September 1983 as they were not dead yet...again, I was just trying to squelch the dumpster rumors).

 

That being said, clearly you've seen some information I have not. If in November/December the old 14xx computers were active, and by 7 Feb the new ones were active, when did the transition take place? I'd love to read the sources.

 

BUT, that was not my point here. I was only discussing the dumpster stories for de-labeled 1400s and 1450s, and how they were not only incorrect, but impossible in the timeline.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Chris Strong

[Chris Strong]

I wonder how the Tong motherboards compare with the "6402" proto.

 

I think the 6402 is clearly a Tong prototype. And Tong itself is still in a pre-production stage, at least mine is.

[Chris Strong]

In any case, I'm confused and want to see pictures of the Tong board.

 

I found some low-resolution ones. It was the best digital camera I had when I took them, 2 June 2001. I can redo the shots of the Tong 1450 and the 1400XL, I no longer have the non-Tong 1450.

 

1450XLD Tong versus 1400XL

 

[Chris Strong]

Closeups of 1450 non-Tong and 1400XL.

 

 

 

[Curt Vendel]

Hi Chris,

 

I thought I sold you a 6402A??? Its definitely not a TONG, its missing the Carmen and Barbara gate arrays on it. I think it is somewhere inbetween, more or less a 1450XL (Dynasty) motherboard, but definitely not a 1450XLD (TONG) motherboard. I have spoken with a lot of the people involved with the 1400/1450 systems and no one knows just where the heck the 6402A came fromt or how it fits in. I still think the most intriquing aspect of it is how they made the port connectors sit back about 3/4" away from the edges to purposefully not allow the motherboard to have been fitted into a case. However, after looking over the board layout, have a look at the proposed 1600XL case and notice how the 6402A ports and the 1600XL port opens both appear to be in the same locations, even the cartridge port as well. The 1600XL motherboard though has an open area for a catridge connector to be placed, but there is no cart connector, nor pin openings to sold a right angle (ala 1200XL) cart connector onto it.

 

 

Curt

 

I think the 6402 is clearly a Tong prototype. And Tong itself is still in a pre-production stage, at least mine is.

[Curt Vendel]

Mickey started back in March '84, long before Tramiel. Not sure what you mean by the Amiga mess other than the counter lawsuit launched in August.

 

 

Actually - Mickey started (from an engineering standpoint) 1st week of April, the access to the Amiga technical materials and data was not long after March 7th 1984 financing of the Chipset by Atari and the HCD and AED engineers gained access to those materials... April is when the engineering team assigned to the Amiga chipset got started...

 

Its all very well documented in our new book coming out at the end of the month, along with copies of the contracts, court testimony on how David Morse was double-dealing (using Atari's money and stalling Atari, all the while commiting fudiciary misconduct by going into negotiations and contract with Commodore) Even a photo of the actual check Atari gave to Amiga in March of 1984... this totally debunks the whole RJ Mical fantast-stories he told about Amiga, Tramiel and Atari... this is what really happened.

 

For those who are looking for solid historical evidence, this is your book, for those looking for never before seen eye candy (documents, inside photos and more) then again... this is your book. Its just over 700 pages with over 100 pages of just photo's that accompany the ends of the chapters...

 

You're also going to see mention of a lot of other high end computers Atari was working on and in book two we'll discuss why those systems weren't pursued...

 

 

Curt

[carmel_andrews]

Anyone know what happened to the so called 1400's/1450's atari showed at the ces, apparently they weren't 1400/1450s, just 1200's with 1400/1450 casings (going by some texts i've seen on the internet)

 

I'm guessing Atari only did that due to 1400 or 1450 mobo's not being ready at the time

[Curt Vendel]

No Carmel...

 

Again, you make assumptions and are wrong. I have one of the June 84' CES 1450's and it is in fact a 1450, not a 1200... I don't know where you get this nonsense, but you really need to stop.

 

 

Anyone know what happened to the so called 1400's/1450's atari showed at the ces, apparently they weren't 1400/1450s, just 1200's with 1400/1450 casings (going by some texts i've seen on the internet)

 

I'm guessing Atari only did that due to 1400 or 1450 mobo's not being ready at the time

[Chris Strong]

Hi Chris,

 

I thought I sold you a 6402A??? Its definitely not a TONG, its missing the Carmen and Barbara gate arrays on it. I think it is somewhere inbetween, more or less a 1450XL (Dynasty) motherboard, but definitely not a 1450XLD (TONG) motherboard. I have spoken with a lot of the people involved with the 1400/1450 systems and no one knows just where the heck the 6402A came fromt or how it fits in.

 

You traded it to me for some 1090 boards and a couple other things.

 

This is kinda sad, as it shows how well my memory is working. I thought you were the one who told me it did need the gate arrays (mine is missing most of the ICs) and therefore we were sure it was a Tong prototype! I've never tried to build mine up, it needs a lot of work. I've not seen it in four years, I only recently uncovered it but I've not unwrapped it yet (my life is wrapped up in antistatic bubblewrap). I don't doubt for a second that you've done more research into this than anyone in the Atari community, and I though I was basing that statement on your facts.

 

I still think the most intriquing aspect of it is how they made the port connectors sit back about 3/4" away from the edges to purposefully not allow the motherboard to have been fitted into a case. However, after looking over the board layout, have a look at the proposed 1600XL case and notice how the 6402A ports and the 1600XL port opens both appear to be in the same locations, even the cartridge port as well. The 1600XL motherboard though has an open area for a catridge connector to be placed, but there is no cart connector, nor pin openings to sold a right angle (ala 1200XL) cart connector onto it.

 

My hunch is it's still somebody's rough prototype board; someone who did not want do do the whole thing in wirewrap so they laid out a proto board to work from. I need to get mine out and look at again and see why I came to that conclusion.

 

I can't imagine it would ever go into a case (looking at a low-res photo from 2001 now); why would you want the PBI on one long side and the SIO on the other?

 

So there are 7 40 pin DIP sockets on the PCB.

 

CPU

PIA

ANTIC

GTIA

POKEY

 

And what are the others, if not gate arrays? Freddie and a 2793 controller? Mine has no drive header but it looks like there might be a place for one. though that's a strange place to put a Freddie. I'm sure you've traced it out....

 

Again, I never inteded this to be a major debate, I just wanted to put to bed these rumors that every single 1400 or 1450 without a case label is out of a dumpster, that they did not have actual plastic cases, or that they were rescued from the New Mexico landfill. There are enough rumors about these machines without people making up more, if you know what I mean.

 

One of the machines I have (without a label) Bruce Carso got straight from Atari....

[Chris Strong]

Anyone know what happened to the so called 1400's/1450's atari showed at the ces, apparently they weren't 1400/1450s, just 1200's with 1400/1450 casings (going by some texts i've seen on the internet)

 

I'm guessing Atari only did that due to 1400 or 1450 mobo's not being ready at the time

 

If you read the postings from Curt's site I referred to above, http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/http://www.atarimuseum8BITS/XL/1450xld/1450xld.html, you will see that they mention having motherboards available for the January CES. Even if they did not have the newer 1450s available, they still had all the first generation 1400s/1450s from the previous fall.

[Curt Vendel]

You traded it to me for some 1090 boards and a couple other things.

 

This is kinda sad, as it shows how well my memory is working. I thought you were the one who told me it did need the gate arrays (mine is missing most of the ICs) and therefore we were sure it was a Tong prototype! I've never tried to build mine up, it needs a lot of work. I've not seen it in four years, I only recently uncovered it but I've not unwrapped it yet (my life is wrapped up in antistatic bubblewrap). I don't doubt for a second that you've done more research into this than anyone in the Atari community, and I though I was basing that statement on your facts.

 

 

 

My hunch is it's still somebody's rough prototype board; someone who did not want do do the whole thing in wirewrap so they laid out a proto board to work from. I need to get mine out and look at again and see why I came to that conclusion.

 

I can't imagine it would ever go into a case (looking at a low-res photo from 2001 now); why would you want the PBI on one long side and the SIO on the other?

 

So there are 7 40 pin DIP sockets on the PCB.

 

CPU

PIA

ANTIC

GTIA

POKEY

 

Hi Chris,

 

Yes, there are sockets on it for FREDDIE and yes the other socket is for the onboard disk controller which is the header connector. This is definitely more 1450XL (Dynasty) than 1450XLD (TONG) for certain in its lineage...

 

 

And what are the others, if not gate arrays? Freddie and a 2793 controller? Mine has no drive header but it looks like there might be a place for one. though that's a strange place to put a Freddie. I'm sure you've traced it out....

 

Again, I never inteded this to be a major debate, I just wanted to put to bed these rumors that every single 1400 or 1450 without a case label is out of a dumpster, that they did not have actual plastic cases, or that they were rescued from the New Mexico landfill. There are enough rumors about these machines without people making up more, if you know what I mean.

 

One of the machines I have (without a label) Bruce Carso got straight from Atari....

[Chris Strong]

Yes, there are sockets on it for FREDDIE and yes the other socket is for the onboard disk controller which is the header connector. This is definitely more 1450XL (Dynasty) than 1450XLD (TONG) for certain in its lineage...

 

Thanks for the clairification, good to know. One reason I never tried to kickstart mine is the lack of spare gate array chips.

 

I know there is some documentation on those...I wonder if there is enough to replicate them using an FPGA? I've never looked into it.

 

I do wonder how long the gate array chips on our prototypes will survive. I don't know about everyone else, but the lids on mine are just taped-on like a MOSIS chip, and those parts generally have a limited lifespan because of contamination.

[Curt Vendel]

Yup, I posted the chip data a long while back:

 

http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/8BITS/XL/1450xld/1450xld.html

[ZylonBane]

Again, you make assumptions and are wrong. I have one of the June 84' CES 1450's and it is in fact a 1450, not a 1200... I don't know where you get this nonsense, but you really need to stop.

 

But if he stopped posting nonsense, he'd never post at all!

[Kyle22]

We have all the info on the 1400/1450 motherboards, Why can't someone with some money (I wish I had) design and manufacture a new 14xx board, complete with Uliimate 1M, VBXE, and all the other goodies on board, and make it to fit a 1200XL case, with a template to cut out the PBI slot and make it look professional?

 

I know it is very time consuming to do the 3D printer thing, but how about re-producing the plastic case?

 

If you want to get really crazy, put a 65816 in it, and also a Z80 (or Z380) so it can run CP/M, using the VBXE to display 80 Col. so WordStar looks nice. The possibilities are almost endless.

 

This would best be made by using as many "classic" chips as possible, and NOT using "soft CPU" FPGA's.

 

With today's modern technology, this would be possible, and i think it would sell, IF it is as COMPATIBLE as possible with existing Atari hardware (SIO Devices), etc.

 

Standard Parallel and serial ports would be OK, but retaining 850 interface compatibility would also be nice.

 

Built-in SpartaDOX-X and Built-in OSS BXL, BXE, Action, M65, easily disabled with a COLD /N so "classic" Atari software could be booted...

 

One 5 1/4 360K Floppy, one 3 1/2 720K (or 1.44M) Floppy, and internal IDE HD

 

Combine ANTIC/GTIA Video with VBXE into a single output, so only one monitor required.

 

That would be my Dream System.

 

A guy has a right to dream, doesn't he......

[Marius]

@kyle

 

To be honest... I really never understood why people would want such a thing.

 

I guess most people here are interested in retro computing. Trying to get max. Performance out their original vintage equipment.

 

Building a 14xx is cool yes. But adding all those features (which are nice ofcourse) will be really decrease the thrill for me.

 

For years I have been tweaking and modding atari 8bitters and finally a few months ago I decided to quit that. All my atari computers are original again and I am only using external gadgets.

 

It is much much more fun, because now I know that what my little atari performs would have been possible in the 80's! It is real!

 

Some people even put a PC in a vintage case like C64... I think about those projects: what a waste!

 

Ofcourse you can have your dreams, but maybe there are better dreams

[+bob1200xl]

Some of us use the Atari 8-bit as a computer. Not an appliance, like the PC. There are thousands of programs that users have written that we can try out, modify, or duplicate. And, of course, we can write our own software.

 

I'll give you an example: my granddaughter had a chemistry problem that required her to balance an equation with enormous co-efficients. So, I wrote a little BASIC program that pried them out for us. Worked fine.

 

We already know how to do this (to a certain extent) on an Atari 8-bit. Do we want to learn a new system? Why? Faster, bigger, better? Your other choice is to make the Atari faster, bigger and better. I have done a few little things with GW-BASIC on a PC. It works OK, but I face the choice of maintaining an old DOS 3/4/5/6X PC or running under Windows. I already have an old Dell that I keep just for the EPROM programmer that is attached to it. And, an old SIO2PC laptop that has a real serial port.

 

Bottom line is that I don't need to write programs that handle megabytes of data or run at 2000mhz. I already have my Atari, which is well documented and allows me to write in BASIC or ASM/ED.

 

It just needs to be a little faster and a little bigger...

 

Bob

[Kyle22]

I agree with you both, if that makes sense. I have mutilated a few 1200XLs in the quest for new features, etc. cut holes for CF cards, etc. but I like the all internal mods that involve the fewest number of hot-glued down wires. I am looking for a clean, unmodified 1200XL to do *ONLY* the mods I want, and do it cleanly.

 

That brings me to my second statement, which is actually a question. Bob, in your Clearpic 2002, do those really need to be 1 (one) ohm resistors, or may I simply use a wire?

 

Thanks.

 

-K

[+bob1200xl]

You can use a wire, but it will void the warranty...

 

Bob

[JokerCPoC]

I wish I hadn't sold off the 1400XL motherboard, it was in a modified 1200XL case and yep it worked, had a pbi bus too, someone has it, it has a rough cut hole in the back where the pbi is, as I didn't have the proper tools to get the job done right and of course it had no shielding, once the hole in the back was cut out the 1400XL slid into the case with no other mods, the place I bought the motherboard from(Best Electronics) doesn't have anymore, though they do have it in their catalog... I'd sold it to some collector up around Wisconsin years ago, who I found through Curt Vendel, I didn't use a stock 1200XL psu of course, but one of the better ones that are/were sold by Best Electronics, along with a stock 1200XL case and keyboard. All I have now is a disassembled 1200XL, oh sure I have some other parts, an Indus GT, a Wico joystick, an Atari type s-video monitor cable, and an ICD P:R Interface, plus a few carts and a disk. The 1200XL needs a few mods, like to the SIO port for the ICD P:R Interface and the mod for the s-video monitor port, I'd been meaning to get this done and have the 1200 working off the 57" TV, but things just kept getting in the way, so far it looks like the mods might be something I'll get a friend to do in 2016, He's an electronics tech in His spare time.

[rpiguy9907]

Both the 1400XL and the 1090 are available on eBay but the prices are ridiculous!

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/322227321151?euid=d2d724218d284a3f819d6a91a8b8b44c&aid=222007&meid=92206f8ef2d946318282e7cd0177791b&cp=1&_trksid=p11010.c100352.m3747&_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIC.MBE&ao=1&asc=20150112095601&meid=92206f8ef2d946318282e7cd0177791b&pid=100352&rk=6&rkt=11&mehot=pp&sd=401171428729&es=0&nqc=EkAACAAQAAACICAACgAAAAMAAQAAAIAAAAAACAQAAAAIQAAARABEAAAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAAAAgAAAAAAAAAEIAAzgIAEAACAAgAAAAAAAAIAAAAAAAAQgAAAAAAAYAAEAAIABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAg*&nqt=EkAACAAQAAACICAACgAAAAMAAQAAAIAAAAAACAQAAAAIQAAARABEAEAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAAAAgAAAACAAAAEIAAzgIAEAACAAgAAAAAAAAIAAAAAAAAQgAAAAABAYgAEAAIABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAg*&ec=1&exe=13632&ext=34902&sojTags=es=es,nqc=nqc,nqt=nqt,ec=ec,exe=exe,ext=ext

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Atari-1090-XL-Expansion-System-Prototype-WITH-COVER-for-800XL-600XL/291849042910?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Dffd2657920ba4cccac818ce3d64e9e13%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D322227321151

[+mytek]

Both the 1400XL and the 1090 are available on eBay but the prices are ridiculous!

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/322227321151?euid=d2d724218d284a3f819d6a91a8b8b44c&aid=222007&meid=92206f8ef2d946318282e7cd0177791b&cp=1&_trksid=p11010.c100352.m3747&_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIC.MBE&ao=1&asc=20150112095601&meid=92206f8ef2d946318282e7cd0177791b&pid=100352&rk=6&rkt=11&mehot=pp&sd=401171428729&es=0&nqc=EkAACAAQAAACICAACgAAAAMAAQAAAIAAAAAACAQAAAAIQAAARABEAAAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAAAAgAAAAAAAAAEIAAzgIAEAACAAgAAAAAAAAIAAAAAAAAQgAAAAAAAYAAEAAIABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAg*&nqt=EkAACAAQAAACICAACgAAAAMAAQAAAIAAAAAACAQAAAAIQAAARABEAEAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAAAAgAAAACAAAAEIAAzgIAEAACAAgAAAAAAAAIAAAAAAAAQgAAAAABAYgAEAAIABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAg*&ec=1&exe=13632&ext=34902&sojTags=es=es,nqc=nqc,nqt=nqt,ec=ec,exe=exe,ext=ext

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Atari-1090-XL-Expansion-System-Prototype-WITH-COVER-for-800XL-600XL/291849042910?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Dffd2657920ba4cccac818ce3d64e9e13%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D322227321151

 

Well if you think those prices are ridiculous, have you looked at what's being charged for abstract art that could have been painted by a monkey?

 

Seriously though, the price for these items is based on the rarity factor and the fact that these were never ever sold by Atari to the public. I believe most of these came from Atari's dumpsters meant to be buried and destroyed.

 

- Michael

 

Correction: A lot of 1400XL motherboards came from B&C or BEST who had gotten them as part of warehouse liquidation sales back in the 90's. But I suspect ones with real 1400XL cases probably came out of the dumpsters or were absconded before that by Atari employees.

Edited August 22, 2016 by mytekcontrols

[+kheller2]

Not to beat a dead thread even more.. but do we have any hi resolution scans of a TONG board?

The 1400 and 1450 boards are somewhat readily available in various threads, and there are some pictures of the drives and drive boards for a 1450 board. But I don't think I've seen a nice full scan of a TONG and its drive yet.