Atari ST vs Amiga?

[Tempest]

But audio-wise it was no contest.

 

How do you think us IIgs owners feel? The IIgs has an AMAZING sound chip in it that almost never got used because of the shitty ST and Amiga sound. LCD strikes again...

 

Tempest

[atarian63]

Anyone saying the machine were very close - you must have had the volume muted.

 

It's fair to say that on the surface, graphically many games were indistinguishable.

 

But audio-wise it was no contest.

I am an St Guy and I have to agree on that, though later in the series 89/90 it seemed to be mitigated by using digitized sound. In 87 Starglider came out on the ST and used digitized sound for the demo. (the game wasnt that great). We used to play it all day long in the store and sold tons of ST's. Remember at this time PC's had were only at EGA video and no sound cards.

Both systems sold on the Eye candy approach. Nothing video or sound wise had been available to the consumer before and it was years before pc's could do it. By 88 they had early vga and basic sound (Ad-lib was the big one before sound blaster) but game dev the like of the ST and Amiga were a long way off yet. Pc's had to settle for slow adv games etc but an arcade game? Forget it! At the time arcades were still the big thing.

On the Amiga side we would run the 'Walker Demo" or Marble Madness and it was easy to sell an Amiga on the non digitized sound. This has always been a hard one for me as I know the Amiga was supposed to be an Atari (Warner Comm time period)and used dedicated chipsets like the 8-bit ataris did. I would have been much happier with the Amiga as the Atari 1600XL with some other O/S than what the Amiga shipped with. The crash of 83/84 sure messed things up!

With Amiga it's like 3 different era's, the A1000 era which was really bad but mostly got fixed. The A500/A2000 era which seemed to be the heyday. The the A3000 etc where the machine took on dedicated video tasks and work oriented stuff. St did the same thing. That was were they both died. Why buy that when a PC or by that time a more advanced mac would do the same and was much more mainstream. We continued with St and Amiga till near the end of both but by then only the fan people were buying and it was a small base.

[DracIsBack]

If you look at the library, most of the games people point out as being "The best on the system" were usually designed (at least originally) specfically for that system. Even the lowly Apple IIgs had a few of these games dispite being the weakest of the three.

 

That was one of the "suck" factors with being a GameCube owner inthe last generation. Most games were designed for PS2 first and then ported over. In the rare circumstance where it went the other way (Resident Evil 4 comes to mind), I liked things a lot better.

[TheGreatPW]

It all comes down to the Lowest Common Denominator. Since, as you pointed out, the two machines were somewhat similar game companies usually developed games for both systems (with the occasional bone thrown to the Apple IIgs). Yes the Amiga had a graphical edge, but developing a different version for the Amiga took time and money. It was much easier and cheaper to just design the game around the lower end computer and release the same game on both. If you look at the library, most of the games people point out as being "The best on the system" were usually designed (at least originally) specfically for that system. Even the lowly Apple IIgs had a few of these games dispite being the weakest of the three.

 

Tempest

 

Exclusive developers for the Atari ST and Commodore Amiga were hard to find in the U.S. (excluding anything Atari or Commodore may have done) as most publishers focused on the PC first and then the 16-bits or in some cases the 8-bits before the 16-bits.

 

The exclusives mostly came from European publishers and a lot of them were just weird. Take a look at FireBird as an example (as an example of European software that is). Also some software like soccer games which some Amiga owners enjoyed will never convince anyone on this side of the ocean.

[TheGreatPW]

Anyone saying the machine were very close - you must have had the volume muted.

 

It's fair to say that on the surface, graphically many games were indistinguishable.

 

But audio-wise it was no contest.

 

Yes the Atari ST only had 3 voices compared to the Commodore Amiga's 4 but that did not mean that Atari ST owners did not have options. Software publishers like Sierra Online, LucasArts and Electronic Arts allowed Atari owners to hook up a MIDI keyboard or the Roland MT-32 (the creme de la creme) to listen to their games with. Sierra Online even encouraged it. I knew 2 Atari ST owners who swore by it but they were musicians as well so they could have been biased.

 

Even without a MIDI system, some software companies like Activison's Ghostbusters 2 (may as well bring up a rarer title) featured sampled songs so a MIDI system was not even needed to get better sounding games. Basically it was up to the developer if they cared or not to include great music. The great graphics was always the priority and if there was enough space, then the music.

 

There were also the MOD and WAV files that were catching on and the free players available for download for those that wanted to hear songs in general. Some utilities even allowed the Atari ST to play a MOD or WAV file at start up and to connect to various desktop functions. All in all, these options allowed Atari ST to not feel left out if music meant that much to them. Plus let us not forget that the Atari ST was the computer of choice for musicians so even if the games sounded bad, you could make beautiful music on your own.

[TheGreatPW]

But audio-wise it was no contest.

 

How do you think us IIgs owners feel? The IIgs has an AMAZING sound chip in it that almost never got used because of the shitty ST and Amiga sound. LCD strikes again...

 

Tempest

 

I remember the Apple IIg, my school had one (literally just one) and they allowed the top computer students to use it. A kid brought in some Sierra Online games to play during a half day once and it was not bad at all. It had a lot of promise. If it had the same success as the Atari ST and Commodore Amiga had in Europe, it would have gotten more games.

 

Do not be so down on the Atari ST and Commodore Amiga's sound LOL. There were a few decent ones. More bad ones than decent ones but still something is better than nothing. Better than beeping sounds right?

[TheGreatPW]

I am an St Guy and I have to agree on that, though later in the series 89/90 it seemed to be mitigated by using digitized sound. In 87 Starglider came out on the ST and used digitized sound for the demo. (the game wasnt that great). We used to play it all day long in the store and sold tons of ST's. Remember at this time PC's had were only at EGA video and no sound cards.

Both systems sold on the Eye candy approach. Nothing video or sound wise had been available to the consumer before and it was years before pc's could do it. By 88 they had early vga and basic sound (Ad-lib was the big one before sound blaster) but game dev the like of the ST and Amiga were a long way off yet. Pc's had to settle for slow adv games etc but an arcade game? Forget it! At the time arcades were still the big thing.

On the Amiga side we would run the 'Walker Demo" or Marble Madness and it was easy to sell an Amiga on the non digitized sound. This has always been a hard one for me as I know the Amiga was supposed to be an Atari (Warner Comm time period)and used dedicated chipsets like the 8-bit ataris did. I would have been much happier with the Amiga as the Atari 1600XL with some other O/S than what the Amiga shipped with. The crash of 83/84 sure messed things up!

With Amiga it's like 3 different era's, the A1000 era which was really bad but mostly got fixed. The A500/A2000 era which seemed to be the heyday. The the A3000 etc where the machine took on dedicated video tasks and work oriented stuff. St did the same thing. That was were they both died. Why buy that when a PC or by that time a more advanced mac would do the same and was much more mainstream. We continued with St and Amiga till near the end of both but by then only the fan people were buying and it was a small base.

 

Bingo! Spot on about digitized sound taking over by the 90s (even late 80s on some titles if memory serves). However when it comes to music in games, I think us Atari and Commodore 8-bit owners were use to having some decent tunes. I still love the music of Parker Brothers' Gyruss! Near the end, sampled sounds were also a part of some 8-bit titles.

 

Yeah I remember Ad-lib; I remember it was popular because it was cheap. Then came the Sound Blaster and Pro Audio Spectrum. Of course let us not forget the creme de la creme: Roland MT-32.

 

If Atari Warner was still around (in a way they were as minority owners of Atari Corp.) it would have been a whole different ballgame period. Not just for 16-bit computing but for the XL line in general. They had some huge plans that were all unfortunately cancelled.

Edited March 28, 2008 by TheGreatPW

[TheGreatPW]

That was one of the "suck" factors with being a GameCube owner inthe last generation. Most games were designed for PS2 first and then ported over. In the rare circumstance where it went the other way (Resident Evil 4 comes to mind), I liked things a lot better.

 

I feel your pain but there was also a lot of value in the Nintendo Gamecube as well. Besides the cheaper price tag, the Gameboy connectivity on some games was enjoyable and the Nintendo brand titles that set it apart from the others. Not to mention you can play all your Gamecube games on the Wii which keeps everything alive.

 

The Resident Evil exclusive rights were nice while it lasted. When they finally converted Resident Evil 4 to the PS2, they added some new content which upsetted some Gamecube owners. The Wii version kind of made up for it.

 

What were the other "suck" factors for you on being a Gamecube owner?

[Christos]

It all comes down to the Lowest Common Denominator. Since, as you pointed out, the two machines were somewhat similar game companies usually developed games for both systems (with the occasional bone thrown to the Apple IIgs). Yes the Amiga had a graphical edge, but developing a different version for the Amiga took time and money. It was much easier and cheaper to just design the game around the lower end computer and release the same game on both. If you look at the library, most of the games people point out as being "The best on the system" were usually designed (at least originally) specfically for that system. Even the lowly Apple IIgs had a few of these games dispite being the weakest of the three.

 

Tempest

 

Exclusive developers for the Atari ST and Commodore Amiga were hard to find in the U.S. (excluding anything Atari or Commodore may have done) as most publishers focused on the PC first and then the 16-bits or in some cases the 8-bits before the 16-bits.

 

The exclusives mostly came from European publishers and a lot of them were just weird. Take a look at FireBird as an example (as an example of European software that is). Also some software like soccer games which some Amiga owners enjoyed will never convince anyone on this side of the ocean.

 

Well, if you've never played football you can't appreciate it that's true. The endless hours of kick off 2... BTW, why do you call your version of Rugby, football, is beyond me. It's played mostly by hands as far as I can tell... I will have to argue though, I don't think that games should be the main focal point in a computer' s sales, as it was on the amiga and to a lesser extend to the ST. I think the perception of the two 16-bit machines as games machines that also ran some applications, was in part the doom of them both. I agree that children will opt for a machine due to the games. But children have a really limited purchasing power. Or at least they used to have... lol.

[Math You]

I think the perception of the two 16-bit machines as games machines that also ran some applications, was in part the doom of them both. I agree that children will opt for a machine due to the games. But children have a really limited purchasing power. Or at least they used to have... lol.

True. The only computer systems that have survived are the ones that began life as business computers with the added bonus of being able to play games.

[TheGreatPW]

Well, if you've never played football you can't appreciate it that's true. The endless hours of kick off 2... BTW, why do you call your version of Rugby, football, is beyond me. It's played mostly by hands as far as I can tell... I will have to argue though, I don't think that games should be the main focal point in a computer' s sales, as it was on the amiga and to a lesser extend to the ST. I think the perception of the two 16-bit machines as games machines that also ran some applications, was in part the doom of them both. I agree that children will opt for a machine due to the games. But children have a really limited purchasing power. Or at least they used to have... lol.

 

Well you are correct that football originated from rugby football however most Americans at the time was not aware of rugby. To give you the short version, eventually the guy who invented the rules to football created a league and that league caught on and yadda yadda yadda badda bing badda boom that league got covered on network television and millions of people started to watch. Except baseball, most professional sports (football, basketball, hockey, pro wrestling, NASCAR, Indy racing, golf, and tennis) in the U.S. owe a lot of their success to television. Television introduced millions to sports and how to play them.

 

Basically the football term stuck and that was it, American football will forever be known as simply football to us. Of course to the rest of the world, they probably had professional soccer for years and never seen a professional football game so when they immigrated here, the whole football concept was foreign to them. For some reason, they always have to point this out to us and it would in all honesty telling us what football meant to them would get them the rolled eyes treatment or just basically fell on deaf ears. However, a lot of American kids are exposed to soccer in childhood and we have a saying, "Kids are interested in soccer until they can learn to hold and swing a bat!" All our sport heroes from baseball, etc. are on television and so it is natural for our kids to look up to them and want to be like them so soccer gets tossed to the wayside. I think the last famous soccer player we had was Pele. God bless Pele wherever he is (is he alive?) but he will forever live on as a classic Atari game: Pele's Soccer!

 

As for why the 16-bits never caught on in the U.S. To give you the shortest version I can possibly give: it has all to do with the PC. Basically in the old days, PCs meant IBM & Compatibles (Wang, etc.) and the Home Computer meant Atari, Apple, Commodore, Texas Instruments, Radio Shack, and so on and so forth. Businesses liked their PCs to run word processors and spreadsheets but not games. However eventually Dad had to bring their work home and kids played whatever their Dads brought home to play with. It was only a matter of time before PCs matched their home computer counterparts in gaming power (386 was the beginning and the 486 put the death nail to the competition) and when that happened: it spelled doom for Atari, Apple, Commodore, and others. They never had a chance in the business world. Business is old and traditional and they were not going to change the way they did things no matter how fancy the home computers were. So in a way, Atari & the others never really had a chance no matter what they did or how they market their systems. It was only a matter of time. However they will all have their 8-bits glory back when things were more like the Wild West and seemed less certain. Apple of course had a much longer life but eventually they too had to switch to the Intel processor (allowing easy & cheap PC emulation). Whatever story Apple gave, the truth is this: the PC war is long over and the Intel/Microsoft combination won.

 

This is of course a very short version without tons of details (like how Microsoft took over the PC world) but it is overall accurate I feel.

 

As for kids having limited purchasing power? LOL They always had great purchasing power! Who do you think ending up wanting & playing all those 8-bits computers? It was not Mom's idea! The videogames crash of 83 gave rise to the home computer & computer gaming in general. You can argue that without the crash, the home computer would have never had a chance to rise.

[DracIsBack]

What were the other "suck" factors for you on being a Gamecube owner?

 

Very little for me. I liked the GameCube a lot. I actually had an XBox and GameCube and ended up selling the XBox because I was hardly playing it. I suppose the lack of online play bugged me (I had used SegaNET on the DREAMCAST) and the half-assedness of a few ports bugged me, but I liked it overall.

 

I do think there's some "revisionist" history going on right now as people declare "the system was a bomb" and "there's no third party games etc". I see it all over the play and chuckle at the notion of a system with over 700 games, a 7-year lifespan and 22 million units sold being a called a "bomb". Jaguar (which I also like) was a bomb in that it hemoraged money, died quickly and had a tiny library of games. GameCube, which generated billions in profits (more than the XBox, PS3 and XBox 360 put together at this point) isn't what I would classify as a bomb.

[TheGreatPW]

What were the other "suck" factors for you on being a Gamecube owner?

 

Very little for me. I liked the GameCube a lot. I actually had an XBox and GameCube and ended up selling the XBox because I was hardly playing it. I suppose the lack of online play bugged me (I had used SegaNET on the DREAMCAST) and the half-assedness of a few ports bugged me, but I liked it overall.

 

I do think there's some "revisionist" history going on right now as people declare "the system was a bomb" and "there's no third party games etc". I see it all over the play and chuckle at the notion of a system with over 700 games, a 7-year lifespan and 22 million units sold being a called a "bomb". Jaguar (which I also like) was a bomb in that it hemoraged money, died quickly and had a tiny library of games. GameCube, which generated billions in profits (more than the XBox, PS3 and XBox 360 put together at this point) isn't what I would classify as a bomb.

 

I liked the Dreamcast too and it was too bad Sega gave up on it even though it sold 10 million models. It would have hit the magic 20 million eventually.

 

You are right: the Gamecube is not a bomb. It is actually number 2 behind the Playstation 2 in the previous generation as it is only the second system to post a profit (unless you are including the Gameboy Advance as well which places the Gamecube in third). Microsoft lost billions and is still losing money on the original XBox. I would not worry about the "revisionist(s)" out there as they are just towing the Microsoft PR department's line. This is after all a business first (not a PR campaign) and eventually the historians will correct them. Right now it is more of people just shooting from the lip. Probably the same people that thought Nintendo would be out of the hardware business and making software only by now too.

 

Ease up on the Jaguar okay? LOL If the XBox is not "considered" a bomb, let us lend the same kind of generosity towards Atari's old cat and call it a hit! Show some respect for Atari okay? Crying out loud, this was in the dot com economy and losing money is not a sign of being a loser apparently!

Edited April 1, 2008 by TheGreatPW

[oky2000]

I personally think The STE is what the ST would have been and what Shiraz Shivji wanted it to be, but money needed to be made FAST and a new computer needed to be signed off on by Jack T after he lost out on the Amiga chipset to start paying the creditors and generating some profit simple as that. SS was involved in the VIC20 and C64 both of which have custom chips ESPECIALLY the C64 with SID and VIC-II but the 520ST (not STE) is more like an Amstrad CPC than a C64 or A8 ie a really fast processor and off the shelf sound chip but no other custom silicon. The design was there from the start to accommodate a blitter/DA converters for digital sampled sound just like the Amiga had. But Jay Miner and co were expert at this kind of thing, look at the VCS and the A8 for proof or even the Lynx with sprite scaling which was designed 2-3 years before JT sold it to you when Nintendo launched the Gameboy but RJ Michel had it finished and prototyped about a year after the Amiga prototype was finished. Plus the ST was produced a lot quicker than the Amiga.

 

So we got no blitter, no video co-processor like A8 display lists, no hardware sprites, no hardware scrolling, no DA stereo sample sound playback and a 1/2mb disk drive with 512 not 4096 colours all of which the compatible STE addresses with minor changes to the motherboard relatively speaking. Price was an issue and so was time, so we got the 520ST and very attractive looking beast it was too and a better computer than the Mac and for that they should be proud. The Jackintosh was fantastic!

 

For polygon games the ST is a better machine too due to simpler screen memory layout and 12% faster CPU. There isn't really much in the Amiga chipset which helps with 3D games. Look at Virus, Powerdrome, Starglider II or Flight Simulator 2 for example, it is faster on the ST clearly.

 

However for something like Shadow of the Beast as others have said it was written more as a demo based on what is available as standard on any Amiga that was tacked on with some pretty average gameplay. But fact remains for every type of Amiga custom chip missing in the original ST that you try to compensate for by software you lose more and more CPU power to actually run the game. This is something that can not be escaped.

 

Another thing is SotB is a horizontally parallax scrolling game, horizontal scrolling is a big drain on the CPU for the ST with no blitter assistance unlike vertical scrolling of 256 pixel width screens. Overscan is also built into the Amiga which takes up zero rasters it is just there to set. Hardware sprites are put to good use as well to add further layers of parallax. It's just not possible to play samples, run an overscaned horizontal overlapped parallax scroll, simulate hardware sprites, software blit everything via just an 8mhz 68000, use spectrum 512 style raster tricks to give you 32 colours per line and still have any CPU time left to run the game.

 

Let's take another game that is written well for both machines, how about Lotus II Turbo challenge? Both versions are very good, the ST version is not far off the Megadrive/Genesis version and the Amiga version is just a little faster a little smoother and better sound (no music until Lotus III so not to worry about engine noises too much!) OR how about Test Drive? The presentation (pictures of cars/music playing) was better than the ST on the Amiga version but when you actually play the game apart from the engine sounds was there a big difference? not really the ST version would probably be faster slightly.

 

I think they're better games to compare, both versions were great, one was slightly better than the other. But one machine cost 33% more than the other or more in 1986/7. So what do you expect? SotB is a conversion of a 100% Amiga game to an ST. Lotus II was designed without the specifics of either machine AND programmed well for both target machines (and Archimedes too)

 

The true question is does it matter? The answer is no, the ST is a great machine in its own right. And if you didn't think like that you would have been stuck with an MSX/C64 or A8 for another 2 years until the A500 was as cheap as the 520STM I purchased. And that means you would not have played Gauntlet 1 (best home computer version in the world on the ST) The Pawn Backlash Starglider......see my point?

 

Short of sound Starglider was better on the ST, The Pawn was identical except for the stupid text to speech business on the Amiga and Gauntlet 1 was NEVER released on the Amiga and none of the Gauntlet rip-offs on the Amiga were much cop and certainly not better than ST Gauntlet 1. Gauntlet II is really crap on BOTH systems too!

 

So there you have it, at the time there were many things to consider....

 

if you want to do music sequencing get an ST with racks of expensive midi equipment,

if you want to do desktop video and animatics get an Amiga and LOTS of expensive frame accurate broadcast video equipment,

if you want to write a letter to the council/state about your parking ticket use either,

if you want to write music and burn a rough copy and become famous like Betty Boop in the UK did get an Amiga,

if you want to produce 3D animation get an Amiga and Lightwave and a 2nd mortgage to pay for Lightware.

if you wanted to do desktop publishing get an Atari and the SLM laser printer package.

 

If you want to play games look at the games on both including awesome exclusives on both look at your bank account and decide which you think is better value for money. When it comes to games the Amiga's blitter can't help with 3D and the ST's midi can't help with anything but cheesy midi elevator music (ie no screams or laser shots or sampled tunes like Xenon 2 blah blah) and at the cost of a midi box that cost as much as a 520STFM anyway so no use to gamers.

 

If you ONLY wanted to play [the usual arcade type of] games you should have got a PC-Engine/Genesis AKA Megadrive or SNES AKA Super Famicom. Those machines were much better for that than either the ST or Amiga. Neither the ST or Amiga could do Virtua Racing/StarFox either for 3D so not just scrolly type games. A home computer is a compromise but a console will never let you mess about and make decent music or make decent animation. Babylon 5 exists because of the Amiga, many musicians produced our favourite music (like Tangerine Dream) thanks to their STs and midi setup.

 

Be happy you own either/all and just enjoy the best both have to offer is all I can say. I have had many fun years using both machines and life is too short to try and force your opinion on others....life is better spent enjoying ALL games you can play on the equipment you own not trying to justify to anyone why you own the machines you own.

 

 

I was first in line to grab a 520STM and SF354 and was very happy with the machine, it was cutting edge stuff. Neochrome was an awesome package and I wasted far too much of my youth doodling in 16 out of 512 colours where most other home computers gave you two or four colours at best. There is nothing wrong with the Atari ST at all as a home computer. As for the OS well the A-line graphic routines of GEM were horribly implemented and slow as hell but Turbo ST sorted that out for me so no need for a blitter for GEM. As for resilience well GEM only really crashed when using iffy PD utils or cracked/packed games not whilst typing in 1st word with an official desk accessory loaded. Sadly though Atarians comments are typical of forum specific boards like this and are just factually incorrect sorry. I have decided not to bring down the thread into a flame war though as this is an Atari forum so it's not for me to try and change people's opinions anyway (and I see the same type of comments on Amiga boards I am a member of too anyway). Some facts though....I have owned both the same 520STM and A1000 computer for about 23 years and know how to use them, how to program them in 68K ASM etc etc and can tell you for a fact that the only time the Amiga OS unexpectedly crashed, despite running a 21bit colour digitizer/Deluxe Paint animations and 4096 colour HAM paint packages simultaneously, was from the same type of badly written software (PD/utils etc) OR cracked/packed games run. So we can conclude they are no worse or better (multitasking aside but very few games run from Workbench anyway and it's rogue processes that bring down ANY multitasking OS including Vista/XP/OSX but this is not the OS that's the problem but lack of hardware protected memory being supplied which any intelligent person knows already) The look is a personal preference I like both really. Neither machine crashed for anyone I know mid game unless it was an actual badly written game that was recalled, cracked game or there was corruption on the disks or faulty hardware in the first place (loose TOS roms on the STM/blown PAL chips on the A1000 when printing etc). Kickstart/Workbench was stable as hell, more stable than any machine off the shelf today too so less of that rubbish please.

 

And the comments about flickering screen modes on the Amiga.....well the ST has a dedicated Hi-Res 32khz non TV compatible type monitor just like a VGA PC, and if you used the Amiga in Hi-Res you should have invested in a scan doubler and suitably identical 32khz monitor. Pictures on TV flicker no more than the same images from broadcasters aired to your TV for example on weather maps with line drawings on dark backgrounds etc or even a PC with TV-output of 640x480....it's called interlace....it is not the Amiga's fault TVs were only capable of 625 lines via 25FPS of successive scanning and interlacing of two seperate 50hz fields (60 for NTSC) to make up one image of double the horizontal resolutions. The A2000 has the option of an internal scan doubler direct from Commodore for this very reason (ie people wanting to use Hi-Res for non-multimedia tv compatible output like word processing/DTP etc). Let's keep it civil and accurate please and no offence to those with an open mind here and their genuine good intentions in their comments too

[oky2000]

What were the other "suck" factors for you on being a Gamecube owner?

 

Very little for me. I liked the GameCube a lot. I actually had an XBox and GameCube and ended up selling the XBox because I was hardly playing it. I suppose the lack of online play bugged me (I had used SegaNET on the DREAMCAST) and the half-assedness of a few ports bugged me, but I liked it overall.

 

I do think there's some "revisionist" history going on right now as people declare "the system was a bomb" and "there's no third party games etc". I see it all over the play and chuckle at the notion of a system with over 700 games, a 7-year lifespan and 22 million units sold being a called a "bomb". Jaguar (which I also like) was a bomb in that it hemoraged money, died quickly and had a tiny library of games. GameCube, which generated billions in profits (more than the XBox, PS3 and XBox 360 put together at this point) isn't what I would classify as a bomb.

 

I liked the Dreamcast too and it was too bad Sega gave up on it even though it sold 10 million models. It would have hit the magic 20 million eventually.

 

You are right: the Gamecube is not a bomb. It is actually number 2 behind the Playstation 2 in the previous generation as it is only the second system to post a profit (unless you are including the Gameboy Advance as well which places the Gamecube in third). Microsoft lost billions and is still losing money on the original XBox. I would not worry about the "revisionist(s)" out there as they are just towing the Microsoft PR department's line. This is after all a business first (not a PR campaign) and eventually the historians will correct them. Right now it is more of people just shooting from the lip. Probably the same people that thought Nintendo would be out of the hardware business and making software only by now too.

 

Ease up on the Jaguar okay? LOL If the XBox is not "considered" a bomb, let us lend the same kind of generosity towards Atari's old cat and call it a hit! Show some respect for Atari okay? Crying out loud, this was in the dot com economy and losing money is not a sign of being a loser apparently!

 

Here here! The xbox WAS a financial disaster propped up with all the money Microsoft make from Windows. They sold it for a loss and the whole operation made a loss, anyone other than Microsoft would have gone bankrupt over the Xbox even Sony.

 

The Jaguar was better than the Sega 32X and CDi and CD32 and 3DO too (in some ways) was very tricky to code for too. Write the code in the obvious way and you got performance hits, but Virtua Fighter Remix Saturn style is likely possible on the Jag. Alien Vs Predator made Doom look like a Gameboy running Pokemon on PCs costing 4x as much as a Jag

 

Jack was always on a backfoot with Atari as unlike when he was at Commodore he didn't have the advantage of MOS technologies making custom chips at cost price as in the £199 C64. Hardware was expensive and Jack's aggressive business style was not so easy without the tools of destruction afforded to him by owning his own chip design company. I'm sure Resident Evil's style of coding is possible quite easily on the Jag with effort too. It all comes down to how much money Atari had to spend on the project not the machines capabilities. The xbox was better and cheaper than the PS2 and yet it sold 15% of what the PS2 has sold and made a huge financial drain on the richest company in the world...so FAIL!

[Retro Rogue]

I personally think The STE is what the ST would have been and what Shiraz Shivji wanted it to be, but money needed to be made FAST and a new computer needed to be signed off on by Jack T after he lost out on the Amiga chipset to start paying the creditors and generating some profit simple as that.

 

Once again, never happened. It was never planned around the Amiga chipset, that's based on RJ Micals misinformation and tall tales floating around, as you've been explained time and again.

 

Let's keep it civil and accurate please and no offence to those with an open mind here and their genuine good intentions in their comments too

 

Yes, lets please keep it accurate.

[carmel_andrews]

Just curious, I kept on reading way back when that at the launch of the Atari ST (pre F and FM) atari were already working on what became the TT...yet the TT and STE were released about the same time

 

So would i be right in saying that atari were already working on the STE as well as the TT while they were launching the orig. ST

[+DarkLord]

Anyone saying the machine were very close - you must have had the volume muted.

 

It's fair to say that on the surface, graphically many games were indistinguishable.

 

But audio-wise it was no contest.

 

Until the STe, Mega STe, and TT030, then it was a lot closer.

 

And after the Falcon was released, it was no contest...

[Zedex]

I like both Atari ST and Amiga, but it's the Apple IIgs that's the king of the 16-bits.

[atarian63]

compare StarGlider on St vs Amiga. The Amiga folks complained bitterly about thier versin, also gauntlet II. St was the dominant platform tll 88 or so, and that only due to St supplies not being availble (pretty much) in the US and the arrival of a cost reduced amiga A500.Amiga folks used to complain all the time about ST ports.

[atarian63]

I like both Atari ST and Amiga, but it's the Apple IIgs that's the king of the 16-bits.

it's an 8/16 and really was an also ran,way in the rear. To bad as it had alot of things right but was way outclassed by ST and Amiga.

[TwiliteZoner]

I wish there had been more games for high resolution monitors. Although there were some great German PD games released.

[Lynxpro]

If Atari had spent a few more months improving the graphics chip they could have added years onto the ST's lifespan.

They should have also considered putting a 12.5mhz cpu under the hood aswell (a 16mhz cpu wasn't available at the time). I know it would have meant more expense, but a 12.5mhz ST have still been cheaper than an Amiga or Apple Macintosh.

 

 

...or started out with a Motorola 68010 CPU. I remember several articles in Atari magazines around circa 86 discussing end users upgrading the CPU even then if only to get marginal system performance.

 

The Motorola 68020 debuted in 1984. Another problem was Atari ditching plans to bring out the TT with an 020 and instead going with an 030 and thus delaying the release by roughly 2 years. I think that had a lot to do with Amiga shipping an 020 system first. Such a miscalculation. I vividly remember Sig Hartman bashing the 020 both in Atari Explorer magazine and also when he came out to talk to our user's group meeting.

 

 

 

It all comes down to the Lowest Common Denominator. Since, as you pointed out, the two machines were somewhat similar game companies usually developed games for both systems (with the occasional bone thrown to the Apple IIgs). Yes the Amiga had a graphical edge, but developing a different version for the Amiga took time and money. It was much easier and cheaper to just design the game around the lower end computer and release the same game on both. If you look at the library, most of the games people point out as being "The best on the system" were usually designed (at least originally) specfically for that system. Even the lowly Apple IIgs had a few of these games dispite being the weakest of the three.

 

 

Aside from having a great sound chip and an interesting case, the //gs was a complete waste of time because even back then just about everyone knew the Mac was Apple's anointed successor and the gs was going to be an orphan. Perhaps the add-on companies should've tried to get than Ensoniq sound chip available for the ST and Amiga lines though...

 

 

 

But back to ST vs. Amiga...both systems are really Atari systems. Sure, the ST's hardware was basically assembled by ex-Commodore people but TOS/GEM was worked on by former-Atari Inc. employees both within Atari Corp and Digital Research, so the ST is also an "Atari" system even if the "Atari" name were to be stripped from our machines. And the Amiga's father was Jay Miner and was funded partially by Atari Inc. money so that makes the Amiga also an "Atari" machine.

[+DarkLord]

I wish there had been more games for high resolution monitors. Although there were some great German PD games released.

 

Hmm, there were quite a few though, surprisingly so...have you checked the lists?

 

I think this is the updated list:

 

20,000 Leagues Under the Sea

8 Ball

Alpha Waves

Atomix

Balance of Power

Balance of Power - The 1990 Edition

Ballyhoo

Battlezone

Beyond Zork - The Coconut of Quendor

Black Cauldon, The

Bob Winner

Bolo

BorderZone

Boston Bomb Club

Borrowed Time

Brataccas

Bunny Bricks

Bureaucracy

Checkmate

Chess Champion 2175

Chess Player 2150

Colonel's Bequest, The

Colorado

Conquests of Camelot

Corruption

Crystal Castles

Crystal of Arborea

Cutthroats

Deadline

Deathstrike

Donald Ducks Playground

Electronic Pool

Elevator

Empire

Enchanter

Esprit

Fish!

Flight Simulator II

Flight Simulator II - Europ

Flight Simulator II - Japan

Flight Simulator II - Lake Huron

Flight Simulator II - Washington

Flip Side

Gnome Ranger

Gnome Ranger 2 - Ingrid's Back

Gold Rush!

Guild of Thieves, The

Hanks' Quest - Victim of Society

Hellowoon - Das Geheimnis des Zauberstabs

Hero's Quest

Hippo Backgammon

Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy

Hollywood Hijinx

Hoyle's Book of Games - Volume 1

Holye's Book of Games - Volume 2

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade

Infidel

Ishar - Legend of the Fortress

Ishar II - Messengers of Doom

Ishar III - The Seven Gates Of Infinity

Jewels of Darkness

Jinxter

King's Quest - Quest For the Throne

King's Quest II - Romancing the Throne

King's Quest III - To Heir is Human

King's Quest IV - The Perils of Rosella

Knight Orc

Lancelot

Leather Goddess of Phobos

Leisure Suit Larry - The Land of the Lounge Lizards

Leisure Suit Larry 2 - Goes Looking for Love

Leisure Suite Larry 3 - Passionate Patti in Pursuit of the Pulsating Pecto

Loom

Lurking Horror, The

Mac Pan

Magnetic Scrolls Collection, The

Manhunter - New York

Manhunter 2 - San Francisco

Maniac Mansion

Megaroids

Millipede

Mind Forever Voyaging, A

Missle Command (High res version)

Mission

Moonmist

Myth

Nord and Bert

Not a penny more, Not a penny less

Ogre

Oil Imperium

Ooze

Oxyd (high res version)

Oxyd 2 (high res version)

Pawn, The

Perfect Match

Perry Mason - The Case of the Mandarin Murder

Planetfall

Plundered Hearts

Police Quest - In Pursuit of the Death Angel

Police Quest II - The Vengeance

Proflight

Psion Chess

Scapeghost

Seastalker

Secret of Monkey Island, The

Sherlock Holmes - The Riddle of the Crown Jewels.

Silicon Dreams

Sorcerer

Space Quest - The Sarien Encounter

Space Quest 2 - Vohauls' Revenge

Space Quest 3 - The Pirates of Pestulon

Spellbreaker

Spinger

Starcross

Starglider

Starglider 2

Stationfall

Stone Age

Suspect

Suspended

Targhan

Tennis (high res version)

Tex McPhilip - Road to Divinity

Time and Magik

Tonight the Shrieking Corpses Bleed

Trinity

Ultima II - Revenge of the Enchantress

Ultima III - Exodus

UMS - Universal Military Simulator (and add-ons)

Voodoo Girl Queen of the Darned

Wind Surf Willy

WIshbringer

Witness, The

Wonderland

Zak Mckraken and the Alien Mindbenders

Zak Mckraken and the Alien Mindbenders (demo)

Zork - The Undiscovered Underground

Zork I - The Great Underground Empire

Zork II - The Wizard of Frobozz

Zork III - The Dungeon Master

 

HTHs.

[TwiliteZoner]

Thanks. I remembered most of those.