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For the ColecoVision: Frantic


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#51 joeybastard OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:01 PM

Interesting points, Jess. My original thought was to do some kind of barred cell graphic for the captured prisoners but the problem is in the size. To do it so that it looks recognizable and could house the running prisoner graphic, I'd have to make them twice as big which just takes up too much screen real estate. We'll have pictures of the graphics in the manual screen explanation so I don't think it will be too much of leap of faith that those are the cells. I'll mess around and see if I can make something fit in the same space but I think making them twice the size will clutter up the screen too much.

I'll see what the jury here says about the detail in the robots. I'm biased because I made them and to be perfectly honest, I love how they came out. I wish there was a simpler way to do multicolored sprites on the CV because I think I could make them more detailed :grin: If the majority say they are too busy, I'll simplify them but it'll be with a heavy heart :sad: ;)

#52 Kripto OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:03 PM

I guess I'm struggling thinking of examples or what "tension" sounds like.


Check out the arcade version of Robotron.... THIS VIDEO, around 1:38+ shows what I'm talking about. Not necessarily this hectic, but menace++. :cool:

#53 joeybastard OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:37 PM

Hey guys how about something like this for the prisoner cells? This would take up the same room as the current cells.

Posted Image

Edited by joeybastard, Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:41 PM.


#54 Pixelboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:39 PM

Hey guys how about something like this for the prisoner cells? This would take up the same room as the current cells.

Posted Image

I don't think it could be done better in an 8x8 tile. :)

For better contrast, you might want to try white instead of blue for the prisonner. Red and cyan have a way of blending on a regular TV screen, especially through the classic (and quite crummy) RF output. It's less of a problem with white. Just my two cents. :)

#55 Jess Ragan OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:44 PM

Jess,

Thanks a ton for the comments. I really appreciate it. I think your coleco review site is great and I wish you'd review some of the more recent homebrews on your site. There are at least 8 off the top of my head that are missing from it.


Which ones? Let me know and I'll see if I can fill in the blanks. To be honest I haven't done much with the ColecoVision page lately, and I really ought to change that.

Kripto's right... early Williams games are the gold standard for angry sound effects. However, they can be extremely difficult to reproduce on a Z80 processor. I remember when Space Invaders Collection was released on the ColecoVision. The ominous "thump thump thump" of the aliens marching was seriously watered down, although the rest of the conversion was excellent.

I think it's because the Z80 processor is a natural soprano... it just can't hit the low notes that the 6502 processor can. I'm no programmer, but I have noticed a trend with Z80-based consoles. The sound effects they produce tend to be tinny and high-pitched, whether the console in question is a ColecoVision, a Master System, or the original "brick" GameBoy. That's in contrast to the NES, 2600, and 5200, which can produce loud, rumbling explosions and thundering bass.

Edited by Jess Ragan, Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:05 PM.


#56 Kripto OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:16 AM

I think it's because the Z80 processor is a natural soprano... it just can't hit the low notes that the 6502 processor can. I'm no programmer, but I have noticed a trend with Z80-based consoles. The sound effects they produce tend to be tinny and high-pitched, whether the console in question is a ColecoVision, a Master System, or the original "brick" GameBoy. That's in contrast to the NES, 2600, and 5200, which can produce loud, rumbling explosions and thundering bass.


I've done some research and it seems like the soundchip on the ColecoVision is somewhat capable and has been used in numerous arcade machines, etc. You can read some detailed info HERE.

I, also, have never coded for the CV but getting low bass out of it should be no problem as that a DAC can always produce low tones with the normal 'issue' being the limit on the highest frequency which can be output.

The sound chip in the CV seems to have 3 tone channels and one noise channel. Can the tone channels have the waveforms they produce altered by having their amplitude and pitch modulated by code or are they locked to square waves with amplitude and pitch controls somewhat blunt only? Inquiring minds want to know...

#57 newcoleco OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:53 PM

I, also, have never coded for the CV but getting low bass out of it should be no problem as that a DAC can always produce low tones with the normal 'issue' being the limit on the highest frequency which can be output.

It's a bit hard to explain but there is a guy in smspower forum who can explain it much better than myself.

The noise channel is set as "periodic noise" that result by doing a peak at every 14 time unit. the period of time for each time unit can be set by the 3rd tone channel. The result is lower notes than the regular tone channels.

You can use my java applet to see what is the difference between periodic noise and white noise by playing the OS7 Sound FX : TEST - Sounditem 1.

You can also use my applet to discover the concept on how to play lower notes with the noise channel plus the 3rd tone channel by playing the OS7 Sound FX : Super DK - Sounditem 1. The comments dont reveal what the 3rd channel (soundtab3) is playing because it's muted, but the frequencies are used by the noise channel (soundtab4).

soundtab3:
byte 0c0h,0e4h,0f0h,030h ; rest - length 48
byte 0c0h,0cbh,0f0h,010h ; rest - length 16
byte 0c0h,0c0h,0f0h,020h ; rest - length 32
byte 0c0h,0e4h,0f0h,020h ; rest - length 32
byte 0c0h,0a1h,0f0h,040h ; rest - length 64
byte 0c0h,098h,0f0h,040h ; rest - length 64
byte 0d0h ; end
soundtab4:
byte 002h,033h,000h,000h,000h ; periodic noise - freq channel 3 - vol 12 - length 256
byte 010h ; end

The original Marcel de Kogel's Coleco library uses its own sound engine having the result on no control on which channel the tones are played, so it's not the best engine to do this kind of notes. However, I did a variation of the Marcel's library to use the Coleco sound bios engine instead, to save space in ROM, but add some in RAM because of the difference in ram usage between these 2 sound engines. My Coleco library to do 4K games use the Coleco Bios sound engine, and it's also this version I included in the begginer's kit (all in a single zip ready to use compiler and tools) to still program with Marcel's Coleco library but with the possibility to use the same sound engine and the same sounds from most of the commercial CV games.

OS7 Sound FX Bank (Java Applet, Source Code, EXE...) :
Page in english : http://www.geocities...ank/os7_en.html
Page in french : http://www.geocities...ank/os7_fr.html

#58 ScottHuggins OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:22 AM

Daniel is THE man. Said it much more elegantly than I.

JESS- it's not the z80 processor that is the limiter, it's the Coleco's sound chip. To get the 'really' low frequencies, you have to combine the noise channel with one of the 3 sound channels. And whomever said the commercial games sound 'trebly' is right. If you try to go below what is 'acceptable' to the CV, the sound won't even show up. It is a shame... I am not sure why they designed it that way. btw, the CV sound chip is the exact same thing as used in the TI-99/4a computer (Texas Instruments). Overall the CV's sound chip is very capable. I'm just not that capable when it comes to 'getting it'. With me, it's just a constant experiment until something sounds alright.

Joe sent me an mp3 file of him playing his guitar. It was distorted and I 'tried' to mimick it on the CV. I failed....badly. The guy that programmed CVDrum (it's in the AA store) is a master at sounds/music for the CV. Frank, where are you!? Do you know 'intense' ? :)




I, also, have never coded for the CV but getting low bass out of it should be no problem as that a DAC can always produce low tones with the normal 'issue' being the limit on the highest frequency which can be output.

It's a bit hard to explain but there is a guy in smspower forum who can explain it much better than myself.

The noise channel is set as "periodic noise" that result by doing a peak at every 14 time unit. the period of time for each time unit can be set by the 3rd tone channel. The result is lower notes than the regular tone channels.

You can use my java applet to see what is the difference between periodic noise and white noise by playing the OS7 Sound FX : TEST - Sounditem 1.

You can also use my applet to discover the concept on how to play lower notes with the noise channel plus the 3rd tone channel by playing the OS7 Sound FX : Super DK - Sounditem 1. The comments dont reveal what the 3rd channel (soundtab3) is playing because it's muted, but the frequencies are used by the noise channel (soundtab4).

soundtab3:
byte 0c0h,0e4h,0f0h,030h; rest - length 48
byte 0c0h,0cbh,0f0h,010h; rest - length 16
byte 0c0h,0c0h,0f0h,020h; rest - length 32
byte 0c0h,0e4h,0f0h,020h; rest - length 32
byte 0c0h,0a1h,0f0h,040h; rest - length 64
byte 0c0h,098h,0f0h,040h; rest - length 64
byte 0d0h; end
soundtab4:
byte 002h,033h,000h,000h,000h; periodic noise - freq channel 3 - vol 12 - length 256
byte 010h; end

The original Marcel de Kogel's Coleco library uses its own sound engine having the result on no control on which channel the tones are played, so it's not the best engine to do this kind of notes. However, I did a variation of the Marcel's library to use the Coleco sound bios engine instead, to save space in ROM, but add some in RAM because of the difference in ram usage between these 2 sound engines. My Coleco library to do 4K games use the Coleco Bios sound engine, and it's also this version I included in the begginer's kit (all in a single zip ready to use compiler and tools) to still program with Marcel's Coleco library but with the possibility to use the same sound engine and the same sounds from most of the commercial CV games.

OS7 Sound FX Bank (Java Applet, Source Code, EXE...) :
Page in english : http://www.geocities...ank/os7_en.html
Page in french : http://www.geocities...ank/os7_fr.html



#59 joeybastard OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:46 PM

further messin' with the box

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  • frantic_green_guy.jpg


#60 Pixelboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:43 PM

further messin' with the box

I like your box images so far, but shouldn't there be some robots in there somewhere...? Without robots to indicate a man-versus-machine setting, the artwork gives the impression that the game is some kind of Metal Gear clone, which it definately isn't.

Just my two cents. :)

#61 joeybastard OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:51 PM

further messin' with the box

I like your box images so far, but shouldn't there be some robots in there somewhere...? Without robots to indicate a man-versus-machine setting, the artwork gives the impression that the game is some kind of Metal Gear clone, which it definately isn't.

Just my two cents. :)


There will be robots, as I said, I'm just messing around for now. The robots are easy for me to do, but I'm not very good at making people. Since they are the hard part, I'm trying to get an idea of how I want them to look first. Once I do, I'll put some some robots in.

#62 joeybastard OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:05 PM

I went in a little different direction...

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  • Frantic_Box_new.jpg


#63 Kripto OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:17 PM

Ah, custom robot...

I like this one much more. :cool:

#64 joeybastard OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:20 PM

Ah, custom robot...

I like this one much more. :cool:


Me too. :D I think I should make the laser go outside the border like the guy now that I look at it again. That's the part I like best, that the guy is running right out of the box.

#65 ScottHuggins OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:38 PM

Ok, Joe... you aren't going to believe this, but I wonder if the "lines through" the Frantic logo will look great here now. I think the white behind help it look less like the DVD poster for a slasher movie. VERY NICE!


Ah, custom robot...

I like this one much more. :cool:


Me too. :D I think I should make the laser go outside the border like the guy now that I look at it again. That's the part I like best, that the guy is running right out of the box.



#66 joeybastard OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:50 PM

Ok, Joe... you aren't going to believe this, but I wonder if the "lines through" the Frantic logo will look great here now. I think the white behind help it look less like the DVD poster for a slasher movie. VERY NICE!


I'll try it out and post it. I might add some walls or floor too but I don't want it to get too busy. Originally I had a female prisoner lying at the guys feet but it was too busy and it looked like he was just going to trip over her. :D

#67 Pixelboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:00 PM

I went in a little different direction...

Wow, that latest one is kewl! :D

With an angled wall in the background (to promote the fact that this is a maze-centric game) it would be near-perfect, IMHO.

#68 joeybastard OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:55 AM

OK, made some fixes and added some stuff. I'm undecided about the wall. I can't decide if I like the stark all black background better.

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  • Frantic_Box_new2.jpg


#69 Pixelboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:22 AM

OK, made some fixes and added some stuff. I'm undecided about the wall. I can't decide if I like the stark all black background better.

Well, I like the wall, but that's a given. :D

Nice work!

#70 Kripto OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:07 PM

How about keeping the wall but reducing its' contrast and/or texture complexity? Maybe a super-slight amount of blur on it?

Looks really good so far.

#71 joeybastard OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:40 PM

OK, reduced the complexity a bit and added a slight blur to the wall. The contrast has to stay about the same because otherwise it almost disappears when it goes to print.

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  • Frantic_Box_new3.jpg

Edited by joeybastard, Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:41 PM.


#72 CV Gus OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon May 5, 2008 3:20 PM

So the game has an ending, unlike Frenzy?

Does it have "special" rooms?

By the by- do all copies of Frenzy give you an extra life at 1,000 points, and then every 2,000 thereafter?

#73 joeybastard OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 6, 2008 7:11 AM

So the game has an ending, unlike Frenzy?

Does it have "special" rooms?

By the by- do all copies of Frenzy give you an extra life at 1,000 points, and then every 2,000 thereafter?


It doesn't have an ending. If you make it through all 5 levels (25 rooms), the game will start over with a much higher difficulty and I think the room order will become totally random instead of random by level. Scott will have to say that for sure, but I think that was the plan.

It doesn't have special rooms like the robot factory in Frenzy but it does have enough added things(keys to exit rooms, prisoner rescues, Killbot regeneration) in every screen that will keep things interesting. Our plan with it was to be a "sequel" to Berzerk and Frenzy so we wanted to keep the basic elements of those games but add some stuff too. For instance, running into a wall will kill you in Berzerk but not Frenzy. We have both in Frantic. Regular walls can be shot through and touched but the rebound walls will kill you if touched.

#74 ScottHuggins OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 16, 2008 7:58 AM

Joe is right... if you make it past level 5 (if you do you are quite something), then level starts over at much higher difficulty. I am starting a new job Monday. Things have been a bit crazy. I hope to get back to this soon. I have a lot of people's suggestions implemented and will post an update soon.

PS: I love the ColecoVision. I love the 2600. I love them all.


So the game has an ending, unlike Frenzy?

Does it have "special" rooms?

By the by- do all copies of Frenzy give you an extra life at 1,000 points, and then every 2,000 thereafter?


It doesn't have an ending. If you make it through all 5 levels (25 rooms), the game will start over with a much higher difficulty and I think the room order will become totally random instead of random by level. Scott will have to say that for sure, but I think that was the plan.

It doesn't have special rooms like the robot factory in Frenzy but it does have enough added things(keys to exit rooms, prisoner rescues, Killbot regeneration) in every screen that will keep things interesting. Our plan with it was to be a "sequel" to Berzerk and Frenzy so we wanted to keep the basic elements of those games but add some stuff too. For instance, running into a wall will kill you in Berzerk but not Frenzy. We have both in Frantic. Regular walls can be shot through and touched but the rebound walls will kill you if touched.





#75 HARMIK OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:59 AM

I'm not so familiar with the Colecovision so forgive me my maybe stupid questions ;)

Frenzy is the Colecovision version of Berzerk right?
my second questions is: Do I get problems If I play US Games on my PAL console?

I'm getting my (hopefully working) Colecovision this weekend ;)

And if this will work, Frantic will be MY favorite game. Looks really great!


Should work fine on a Pal console :)




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