Vector is dead!

[fox]

(sorry for my poor English!)

 

Precisely it's in state of clinical death. I'm not sorrow at it, because I don't care if this game will be finished or not. I only post here to find out if you don't care either.

 

I don't mind, because fortunately I haven't done much for this game, except for what you could see in Numen (this demo was something I cared about). A few simple things I did was invention of the name (to avoid writing "portal engine - based game" every time), taking a few screenshots and sending them to Dely (Atari Area webmaster). Later, for my own convenience, I wrote FAQ.

 

From the beginning, I wasn't sure if this project will be finished, because it's too ambitious for these days. I thoght the hardest part will be programming the engine. It wasn't. After a few months of designing, I wrote it in 2 weeks and spent next 2-3 testing and correcting the bugs. I wrote the engine for the demo - it was the only missing effect.

 

The engine is ready for a year and nothing has changed during this year. A few people I showed it first can confirm it. I didn't see a reason to show the engine to all people, from a few reasons:

- releasing demo version of "Vector" could convince people that I was working on this game, while actually I was working on "Numen"

- I'm poor at fine arts - I didn't want to show my "maps", which I mad only to test the engine; I also didn't want to show the maps I prepared for "Numen" nor create maps for Vector myself. I don't like the maps you can see in "Numen" - "Vector" could look much better.

- people could think that the final version of the game won't be much better than the early version of the engine

- a person that wanted to cooperate in creating the game would be "honored" to see the engine and would be treated as one of authors (in other words it wouldn't be only my project)

 

I turned out necessary to check, if people are interested in this game, and to find a co-worker. I was amazed to see how popular the game was (especially in a few first days after opening the web page), but the co-working offers weren't satisfying. Most of my correspondence with people that offered to help me looked like this:

- "hi, I wanted to help you with Vector"

- "ok, what do you want to do?"

(sometimes this was the end of correspondence)

- "maps, just give me the editor with the manual"

- "ok" (I sent the editor with exhaustive manual, I additionally describe the basics of using the editor and capabilities of my engine)

(here's sometimes the end of correspondence)

- "I have no time" or "the editor is too hard to use"

(in first case it's the end of correspondence, in the second I tried to argue that this editor was used for much more complicated games: "Duke Nukem 3D" and "Shadow Warrior")

 

I wasn't worry about that at all and I'm not offended with any of persons which wrote to me then.

 

Undoubtedly the game could be finished in 2001 if there was one creative volunteer. There wasn't any, so in 2002 I started linking "Numen", replying to "offerts" with less and less enthusiasm. I understand that some of the people couldn't believe the screenshots are real. I decided to show in "Numen" some of engine's capabilities, looks like ineffectively, because some still call it Wolfenstein-like.

 

I always try to express myself clearly, but still meet with incomprehension of "Vector" issue. I'll explain it once more (I you have problems in understanding, please read it twice):

- I have 3D engine, which can be used in FPP game for 6502-based machine (Atari 8-bit, 5200, C64, maybe Lynx)

- during a year I did nothing to finish this game and I'm not going to do it myself

- the engine is based on Duke Nukem 3D (not Doom) engine, automatic conversion of DN3D maps to an 8-bit computer is impossible

- the engine could be faster than what you can see in "Numen" and can contain other elements (teleporters etc.)

- I offer writing whole game code for Atari XL/XE. If it will turn out possible to make it for 5200, C64 or Lynx, I can also program these ones.

- I won't start programming until I'm convinced the project may be finished with success (in a few months)

 

I wonder if 8-bit machines owners want to have new software, or they are satisfied just by collecing the hardware. Of course 8-bit game market is not like 17 years ago, so we can't have such number of new products, because there aren't as many people capable of making them. But also technology is much different. Today's worst 64-bit computers were not even

a dream of creators of classic 8-bit games. Now we also have much better software than at those days. Should we be satisfied with conversions from other platforms? Many such projects are started and I can't wait to see one finished.

 

Some of you offered "I can do the graphics, just tell me what", "I can help, but what should I do?", "I would like to make maps, but I don't know how". This is not the help sufficient to finish "Vector". What's most needed now is "project manager", i.e. a person that will take care of it and finish it. I'm not this person, that's why I describe the project so precisely, to let the person know the circumstances. The requirements are following:

- it must be a volunteer

- the person must control whole project, tell me what should I do (as stated above, I can only do programming)

- whenever the person says "I have no time", I'll reply I don't have time either and it's the end of our cooperation

- I want to see the plan - how much time is needed, who will make what, etc.

- the person must be convinced of success of the project

 

Of course no normal adult man will do that without money (everything's about money). Spending much time for free is possible only for a young man or a total maniac. I don't see anything bad in making this project commercial, maybe it's the only way. This won't be a fortune, but since it could be international and multiplatform (e.g. Atari 8-bit and C64), maybe there's an alternative for new games made by single persons: single project with its manager, designers, programmers, musicians and sponsors.

 

I've said everything I know, now please don't bore me with non-technical questions. If you know a person interested in this topic, that won't read this text here, pass it to him/her. If the situation won't change, I calmly close project's page.

 

I treat no response as "I don't care".

[Jetboot Jack]

Fox,

 

I totally understand your position, and I am sad, becuse vector looked VERY cool....

 

Numen was AWESOME!!!!

 

If I had know you were after input, and help with any aspect of the game I would have asked to contribute earlier...

 

I'm finding it very hard to get work done on my 8bit stuff, and although I would love to help out (I am a game designer and project manager by profession) I may not be able to give a huge amount of time to the project (between making games for a living, reviatalizing old projects like Beast etc, doing some 6502 coding, being married and having a life) - but if you're interested let me know...

 

I know how to make games and manage the process - I have many hugely succesful commercial releases to my name...

 

sTeVE

[Heaven/TQA]

Fox???? anything alright????

 

maybe i'll speak to you on private base...

 

(sounds like talking with our company development crew... )

 

in the "real world" we need a producer for "vector"...

 

hve

[DEBRO]

I hate to hear this but I totally understand your position. I hope someone can help you out.

[Goochman]

Fox,

 

Say it aint so - as for being 'Wolfenstienish', I guess most folks didnt realize you couldnt jump, walk stairs and have rising platforms in Wolfenstein - oh almost forget water as well

 

As for the Project-

You mention you can only code - Based upon what you have for Vector what skills are required for map making - With Doom there were 'wad' generators to make the maps - is the something a non programmer can use to generate Vector maps?

 

Graphics - What can be used to produce them - MircoPainter(for example) and are there restrictions/limitations around beasts/objects

 

Looking at Numen it appeared alot of the engine was in place, however the following appeared missing:

Enemy Movement

Enemy Actions(shooing, etc..)

Enemy AI

I only saw graphics for 3 types of enemy

Level Size (You didnt move very far before having to jump into something else)

 

The enemy stuff will cause slowdown Im sure so some of the 'outside' areas which were already slow probably would have to be cut/restricted

 

Are these programming efforts to be done on your part or someone the Project Manager would need to find?

 

What is the development environment?

 

With this info I think a Project Manager would have a better sense of whats ahead of them.

 

BTW-

GREAT JOB no matter what happens.

[ndary]

Fox, I think that everyone who reads this thread totally understands you.. producing a game, (specially in Vector scale) is not a one men task.

 

most of us thought that the vector game project is been secretly worked by several people in Poland..

 

there is one thing that everyone who reads this messages will agree that the Vector project must not die. here what I suggest...

 

first we need to see if this project can be complete.. what I mean is if there is enough people who can join forces to deliver the game.

 

I know that all of use have full time job and occupied with other priorities.. but with good planning I think we can make this game come true.

 

what is needed is a project coordinator.. and I think the best candidate is Jet Boot Jack, since he have the most experience.. jet boot you can guide all participants what is needed to be done.

 

a graphics, music, level designer, beta testers etc.. are also needed..

I think that you need is to screen candidates to make sure that will met you expectations. maybe a web page is need to be done (that will inform what is needed to finish the game).. kind of "hiring add" for the vector game. people can apply with their skill and how much time they are willing to commit.. then you can decide if and when this game can be released...

 

One thing that all of us agree.. we should not let this project die!!!

[Heaven/TQA]

fox...if everything goes mad & bad... we should make sure that all sources, editors, etc... will be online so it will not be lost when you had harddisk crash or no energy anymore for the project...

 

can you please send me the files you send to several people (incl. editor, etc...)?

 

heaven_tqa@hotmail.com

 

mille gracie

 

karolj

[fox]

first we need to see if this project can be complete.. what I mean is if there is enough people who can join forces to deliver the game.

 

I've put exactly same post on Atari Area forum. Of course it's in Polish, so learn Polish quickly.

Looks like I'm not alone. The staff could be following:

- me (programming)

- X-Ray (music)

- Dracon (graphics)

- Pajero (maps)

- Dely (webmaster)

- Sikor (editor who wants to make it "commercial", sold at very low price)

But that's not enough. We lack powerful management and motivation.

[Albert]

Fox, when I first read your post I was discouraged that you weren't going to finish Vector. But I understand how much effort is required to pull off something like this and I'm glad that you're checking to see how much interest there is in helping to complete it rather than write it off completely. I personally don't have time to be involved (AtariAge takes up too much of my time as it is) but I hope you're able to find some motivated individuals to see the project to its completion.

 

Good luck!

 

..Al

[ndary]

fox,

 

i did tried to learn polish in opalencia.. but did not succeed

 

you are right managment and motivation are the key, this why i recommended that we need managment from an expert.

 

i will contact dely about the vector web page, maybe a questioner about who is interested in a vector game.. and what their expectation can built up a motivation within the programming group

 

nir

[Sheddy]

Glad to see people are interested in helping out, or it would be sad news indeed. Hope you can find a project manager - sorry I can't help - I am not a project manager either.

 

We all would like to see a full game with that brilliant engine, although it is a huge amount of work.

Numen is a superb demo of what Vector could be like - An amazing achievement for a 6502 machine - no wonder many people thought it was a hoax to start with!

 

Good luck

[Gunstar]

I don't know if I should direct this post to Fox or to everybody who might be involved in getting vector finished, but I'm willing to help in any way I can, and here is waht I have to offer:

 

I'm an artist.

I know graphic modes and graphic software for Atari 8-bit.

I'm an electonics and Art student who plans on doing this for a living like Jetboot Jack eventually.

I know PC's too, if anything besides Atari computers/emulators are being used in development.

I'm willing to make the time to do graphics and mapping and learn what I need to learn.

I'm willing to help as an artist, level designer or beta tester or all of them.

I have access to a PC and Atari emulation, I have a 130XE and APE and 1050 drives, etc.

I can even test it on Dreamcast emulator as well as PC and real Atari.

 

Please private message me or e-mail me at Gunstar@minux.zzn.com-Anyone involved.

[Gunstar]

Everybody! Just to let you know if anyone needs any kind of help with any project for the 8-bit or Jaguar or Lynx or even the older consoles 2600/5200/7800, I'm willing to help in any capcity necessary, I want to get involved with development and think this an excellent way to get experienced. Consider me a possible Intern.

[feo]

I am interested on the project too.

What I could help with is web design, and other type of graphics stuff.

Let me know if there is anything that i can do.

[Jetboot Jack]

Fox,

 

As I said in my first reply in this thread - I'm a Games Development Project Manager by profession and would be interested in helping your group achieve your goal.

 

Email or PM me so we can start talking...

 

sTeVE

[fox]

Two things:

1. I don't respond to "Send me the map editor" e-mails.

2. I see there are many volunteers - don't contact me, contact each other - you have this forum. The same topic is on Atari Area forum.

[wesmond]

Just another mail of support. There's not much I can do to help - not much of a programmer of this sort, and not a project manager kind of guy either. But after a bit of absence from my Atari, I was blown away seeing how incredible Numen is, and how promising Vector looks so far. Amazing, miraculous stuff.

 

Hope that things work out to finish it.

All the best,

Wes

[Godzilla]

So how come I don't see people using this forum to get togehter and build Vector? (as fox suggested,) Or is his little list of people working on the project actually doing something? If the group needs someone to email them every day and say 'hey, why aren't you working on Vector, SLACKER!' (aka 'a manager') I can definately do that :-)

[emkay]

The only reason I see, why not finishing this Game is, that it is not possible...the way the project is started.

Like much other projects on the ATARI X.

[Godzilla]

Just poking the dead horse.... Where's Vector??

[andy_bernstein]

emkay

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 12:14 am    Post subject:  

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The only reason I see, why not finishing this Game is, that it is not possible...the way the project is started.  

Like much other projects on the ATARI X.

 

Well, did you propose your help at the time of the original post ?

 

AB.

[emkay]

emkay

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 12:14 am    Post subject:  

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The only reason I see, why not finishing this Game is, that it is not possible...the way the project is started.  

Like much other projects on the ATARI X.

 

Well, did you propose your help at the time of the original post ?

 

AB.

 

 

For what?

 

As FOX said they still have :

- X-Ray (music)

- Dracon (graphics)

- Pajero (maps)

- Dely (webmaster)

- Sikor (editor who wants to make it "commercial", sold at very low price)

 

 

....

 

BtW... did you?

[Heaven/TQA]

hmmm... no comment... maybe simply because they are fed up with vector? (numen finished... mission completed...)

 

and... numen source is published... so you could "easily" cut out the vector engine and do your own "vector"...

 

it's always the same... a lot of people want to have this and that... but right now there are just few people who really have the experience and the power to do & finish projects...

 

look at me...32 marketing manager in games biz...i have 24 hours consoles, games, hypes, preview code etc around me... and not a 9-5 job...so sorry for not finishing senso7800, timepilot etc... maybe 4pac will be finished... but writing a game is something completly different than a game... hey...is just about fun ... emkay... "have you programmed atari today?"

 

hve

[andy_bernstein]

BtW... did you?

 

If I had known at the time of the original post, yes I would have. I only heard of Atari Age six months ago (and I joined immediately).

 

Also, I'm taking over Jet Boot Jack's duties with Analmux' GTIA upgrade so I'm definitely doing my best for this platform.

 

Life is short.

 

AB.

[Godzilla]

It would just be a low down damn dirty shame to see such power go to waste. I've never seen the c64 do 3d like numen. :-) could you imagine if this had come out back in the day????