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#1 sergi OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:06 AM

Hi to everyone

I dumped several real rare Jaguar Carts and now offer to you get them for free of horse

be happy :)

All of these games was verified on real non-modifed Jaguar via my EPROM Cart, all works correctly

May I place once again these roms, but without Hyper Force?

Edited by sergi, Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:23 PM.


#2 doctorclu OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:53 AM

Hi to everyone

I dumped several real rare Jaguar Carts and now offer to you get them for free of (course)

be happy :)

All of these games was verified on real non-modifed Jaguar via my EPROM Cart, all works correctly


Nice!! I have all of these, but now I can have the image for presentation at Anime/Video game conventions without having to drag the original along. (I did this once and having 40 cartridges layed out was a bit unnerving to keep up with. However, many LOVED seeing a Jaguar in action.

:D Awesome!

Good work on adding that key to CyberGolf! :D What did that take to make work?

We have a request if this porting process is not too difficult if you could try to make a new image of Wolfenstein. Most common images out there do not work (completely) on the flash carts that Easybayarb and I have, so if you can give that a shot it would be appreciated.

Edited by Albert, Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:20 AM.


#3 sergi OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:55 AM

In future I will get other non-dumped jaguar roms

By the way - I have Last Hope for NEO-GEO CD - if anyone want to download it - a will give a link

In very interesting in Jaguar and NEO-GEO programming

and has a prototype of flash carts for these oldschool consoles

Also have some information how to make NEO-GEO sound engine for Z80 for ADPCM

Edited by sergi, Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:57 AM.


#4 Gorf OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:59 AM

Hi to everyone

I dumped several real rare Jaguar Carts and now offer to you get them for free of horse

be happy :)

All of these games was verified on real non-modifed Jaguar via my EPROM Cart, all works correctly



Isn't HyperForce a SongBird production? You really should not be dumping ROMS
of an exsisting developers titles(never mind any other title for that matter.)

And people wonder why us developers complain.

Amazing.

#5 Albert OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:22 AM

I have removed the download links. Please do not post Jaguar binaries here.

..Al

#6 JagMod OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:15 AM

Thank you Albert.

#7 sergi OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:21 AM

Finding and purchasing of these carts so much hard, practicaly only one chance to see these games is to get a binary ROM

But Jaguar emulation so bad, that I think developers shoud'n be worry about illegal downloading of these binaries

Anyway some people sell even only ROMs of rare games for different platforms, I make it for free :(

Wolfenstein is works well, I dont think that it should be fixed
But you may replace first $2000 bytes of rom with eniversal encryption key - possible it will work correctly

its 8 Kbytes of code

Edited by sergi, Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:06 PM.


#8 doctorclu OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:28 AM

I have removed the download links. Please do not post Jaguar binaries here.

..Al


You know I can see not posting links of binaries of roms of newly released games (like Hyperforce), but Flipout, Phase Zero, Super Cross 3D.. these are much older games.

CyberGolf is a proto that he added the encryption key to.

Now I'm going to ask a question, I'm not meaning to be difficult, just pointing out a obvious weird fact at Atariage.

Here at Ataiage we have roms downloadable for 2600, 5200, 7800, Lynx. I notice that Activision titles are not there.

The Jaguar, unlike all the ones above, is a system released by Atari during it's time as Hasbro to the public domain. Now as Jay Smith at Jaguar Sector 2 found out, that did not neccesarily include the game titles, but if any Atari system had the right to have it's information freely available, it would be the Jaguar.

On the other game forums here, binaries are freely available. Modified binaries are freely available. There is not a problem with this. These binaries are posted up by people who both own and do not own the programming rights to those roms. The only standard I see about these roms however is that the games were ones generally released in the prime of the game system, long since sold in stores, and long since apparently forgotten about by the companies that released them.

While I can see the taboos of posting Hyperforce (a game currently sold by Songbird), and Zero 5 (a game loosely still sold by Telegames in the UK... I think, otherwise Telegames has more or less moved on from the Atari scene but not enough), considering the way the other systems are handled here, do not see the problem of the other game titles being featured here both for hobby tinkering, backup for those of that own the originals of the game, and modified binaries for the fun of it.

In short, I can only come up with ONE reason why the Jaguar binaries should not be downloadable here, perhaps two:

1) Jaguar binaries are usually 2 to 4 MB, while the other systems are never more than 128K. This could take up a lot more space and if server space is an issue I understand. That doesn't explain links.

2) The other systems are older. The Jaguar's older roms however are getting to be 13-15 years of age as it is.


If we follow the example of how 2600 roms are featured here (even downloadable directly from AtariAge), I would like to submit that the same rules apply for the Jaguar in the future.

1) Games that were sold back in the prime of the gaming system can be featured here. The example for this is all the games you currently have downloadable here at Atariage.

2) Game roms of companies that do object, and from the gaming systems' prime will not be featured here. We see that already here with Activision games that are not featured here on Atariage.

3) Game roms recently released by hobbyists, that were not sold in the prime of the game system, are not to be featured here unless the developer/hobbyist posts those images here themselves. We see this in practice with the rom images we've seen with Castle Crisis (800/5200), Beef Drop (7800), and Adventure 2 (5200).


Does the above sound workable?


I do agree with developers like Gorf that their work should only be posted by the developers if they choose and only by them. This is a unspoken rule that seems to work on the other forums (number 3 above). So we would be discouraging and deleting links to games from say Telegames, Songbird, Scatologic, Three Stooges, and other developers that have released games since the demise of the Jaguar in when Atari was sold to JTS in 1997.

The other unspoken rule seems to be that games developed back in the day (in this case anything prior to 1997) and that no one has objected to would be fine in the hobby sense here at Atariage.

Bottom line...

The above rules are to say in practice what Atariage actually does for other Atari platforms. I want to see the Jaguar reach the same level of fandom and support that the other systems seem to have here. At some point I would like to see the Jaguar have something more like the Cuttle Cart 2 where large libraries can be more easily accessable for the Jaguar without lugging around boxes and boxes of stuff just to make it happen.

I would LOVE it if when we have the Cuttle Cart like solution, that copies of binaries can be sold with the game cartridges so that the game cartridge can be spared, even unopened for collectors, while the game image is in use. The owner of the cartridge would be the only ones with that right to have it. Again, this would be up to the developers. Even still such game roms of newer, post prime, games would only be in the owner's libraries, not here, unless the developer posted those here themselves.

I would also like to see more people playing with the existing binaries as we see on the other subboards and making alternates of Jaguar games. There have been a lot of fun and greater understanding by 2600/7800/5200 fans about how the games work that have led from modifications to actual new games being written.

Unfortuantely the Jaguar fan scene is much newer than the other platform groups, and unspoken protocals for what is and what is not acceptable is not as well developed. I think the above three rules say basically what the other Atari platforms have in practice.

Al, Atariage is your board, and in the end you could say "No Jaguar binaries period". But I hope in light of the comparison you can give a good reason, or at least considering the other platforms here, come to some compromise. I think the three rules above are a good compromise.



(The edit to this message was to change one word from "developered" to "developed")

Edited by doctorclu, Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:43 AM.


#9 kevincal OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:34 AM

"PERFECTLY OUTLINED" Doc. ;) I agree with you.

#10 doctorclu OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:35 AM

Finding and purchasing of these carts so much hard, practicaly only one chance to see these games is to get a binary ROM

But Jaguar emulation so bad, that I think developers shoud'n be worry about illegal downloading of these binaries

Anyway some people sell even only ROMs of rare games for different platforms, I make it for free :(

Wolfenstein is works well, I dont think that it should be fixed
But you may replace first $200 bytes of rom with eniversal encryption key - possible it will work correctly


Hang in there Sergi, I know what you're saying and do understand.

And don't everyone jump on Sergi, he basically did what in practice happen on the other Atari platform forums here. And porting those for free I think he meant just as well as others tend to (like Romhunter (2600) and people like that.)

So I encourage everyone here to be calm, let Al review the three rules of binaries I proposed above, and make that decision.

Until then, everyone be cool. :)

Edited by doctorclu, Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:39 AM.


#11 doctorclu OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:59 AM

For #3, the hobbyist/developer rule would also include game images entrusted to be released under a particular service. So for this example, games released under the Jaguar Sector 2 VIP download section would not be downloadable here.

Just making that clear for what I'm proposing.

Edited by doctorclu, Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:00 PM.


#12 sergi OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:00 PM

I explain how to place the universal key to rom:

It takes first $2000 bytes of ROM
with an Hexeditor you are replacing $2000 bytes of ROM with universal key

it can be downloaded here:
http://www.raregame....ryption_key.bin

and save result as a new rom

after that Jaguar will start to execute any code written from $2000 of the binary

In fact Hyper Force uses the universal key - developers not calculated encryption for them game;)

I answered to everyone - be well;)

Edited by sergi, Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:33 PM.


#13 Alison DeMeyer OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:26 PM

Can't the whole Jaguar library be downloaded from a certain torrent from the underground anyway? I am a collector of originals, but like teenagers and music today, many gamers just want to play the game. The Wii success is based on the old games Nintendo gives away as a download.

#14 lotek_style OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:43 PM

DoctorClu: WORD! I totally agree. The Jaguar-"Scene" totally freaks out about that topic usually which I can hardly understand at all.

#15 sergi OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:45 PM

Not all Jaguar roms can be easily downloaded even from underground torrent

'cause that men which have them just sell these roms

In fact - developers of course must get payment for them work, but also they should make new games, isn't it? - but they are not making new games and just selling ten years old cart

Its time to make new games - I think it is so :)


I bought all these cart on Ebay, I don't think that seller was one of developers - it seems to me - sellers are regular collectors :sad:

Edited by sergi, Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:30 PM.


#16 Albert OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:08 PM

DoctorClu,

You make some excellent points and I pretty much agree with everything you outlined. Over seven years have passed since AtariAge went online, and the Jaguar wasn't *quite* as old back then. That was part of the rationale for not putting any commercially-released Jaguaur ROMs online. In addition, they are fairly large files (compared to the binaries for all the older Atari systems), and that was a consideration back then that is moot today. Also, there were quite a few more vendors still selling NOS Atari Jaguar games. I haven't been paying attention to the market, so I don't know if there's still a fair amount of NOS Jaguar games being sold.

If I did allow binaries to be linked and/or posted here, I absolutely would not allow anything from current day developers to be posted, unless it was posted by them or with their permission (and I would need to speak to the developer directly in the latter case).

Are there really people selling Jaguar binaries from older games?

I will give this issue some thought before I make a decision either way.

..Al

#17 Gorf OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:11 PM

No matter how fancy you outlines your reasoning.....the fact still remains, you are
violating the rights of the owners of the software by posting them publically.

There is no excuse or justification for spreading roms around that do not belong
to you nor have they been officially made PD.

Again, you people wonder why us Jaguar developers have issues releasing anything.
Hyperforce? That's just a bit out of hand. I'm quite sure Carl does not appreciate that
nor would Telegames with Z5 if they still own the rights. Im no big fan of Telegames
either but I'll defend their right to protect their property.

If any of you had even the foggiest clue the trouble it takes to write a Jag game,
A game WORTHY of the Jaguar, then you might understand why we are so very
serious about this issue.

#18 Sauron OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:36 PM

No matter how fancy you outlines your reasoning.....the fact still remains, you are
violating the rights of the owners of the software by posting them publically.

There is no excuse or justification for spreading roms around that do not belong
to you nor have they been officially made PD.


Just curious, but do you have the same issue with Jay Smith profiting off the "Extremist" packs that he openly sells on JSII?

Again, you people wonder why us Jaguar developers have issues releasing anything.
Hyperforce? That's just a bit out of hand. I'm quite sure Carl does not appreciate that
nor would Telegames with Z5 if they still own the rights. Im no big fan of Telegames
either but I'll defend their right to protect their property.

If any of you had even the foggiest clue the trouble it takes to write a Jag game,
A game WORTHY of the Jaguar, then you might understand why we are so very
serious about this issue.


Please enlighten us as to what exactly is WORTHY of being on the Jaguar. Honestly, I didn't see what ROMs are posted, but if there's some imaginary marker of quality for games that are WORTHY of being on the Jaguar, odds are that none of the ROMs posted really fit that description.

#19 Gorf OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:16 PM

Just curious, but do you have the same issue with Jay Smith profiting off the "Extremist" packs that he openly sells on JSII?


Everything on those disc were given to him by Curt who out right bought all of it from Atari. Legally
it may be Atari's IP but Curt now has the right to do as he wishes with all those hard drives full of info
he has.

I also don't see commercials roms of every Jaguar game, nor do I see games that someone is presently
selling.

Not even close my friend.

Again, you people wonder why us Jaguar developers have issues releasing Please enlighten us as to what exactly is WORTHY of being on the Jaguar. Honestly, I didn't see what ROMs are posted, but if there's some imaginary marker of quality for games that are WORTHY of being on the Jaguar, odds are that none of the ROMs posted really fit that description.



Zero5, as much as I do not really like the game is clearly a lot of hard work. Hyperforce probably was not done in an afternoon.

The trouble here is some of you are so used to getting things for free game wise like old betas and such that you think everyone
else owes it to some of you...or at least that is how it comes across.

Free or not....how about being happy you are getting anything from Jason at all?

I like free stuff, but I certainly appreciate those that work hard on this stuf and I
show that buy buying the game. Im not asking for handouts. A person is worthy
of what little he may get back for his time and effort. That goes for homebrewers
or the guys that wrote these games for Atari and already got screwed from
that whole deal.

Standing back a little to see the entire picture is helpful. You are being very one-
sided on this toward the ROMer's.

It just come across like we have nothing better to do than to spend our spare time
writing games for your pleasure. God forbid we dare ask for reasonable compensation
for our time an effort. Concept: How about asking permission of Carl or Telegames
before going ahead and just posting ROMs?

Is that really asking too much?

#20 Gorf OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:24 PM

The other fact is Sauron, that it does not matter how 'WORHTY' a game title is anyway.
It's still belongs to some one which is the obvious point.

#21 JagMod OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:27 PM

How about I siphon a gallon of gas out of your car every night.
Its got to be ok since you never said I couldn't.
I'll stop only if/when you ask me to.

Edited by JagMod, Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:30 PM.


#22 Gorf OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:29 PM

How about I siphon a gallon of gas out of your car every night.
Its got to be ok since you never said I coudn't.
I'll stop only if/when you ask me to.



Word!

#23 Sauron OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:45 PM

Everything on those disc were given to him by Curt who out right bought all of it from Atari. Legally
it may be Atari's IP but Curt now has the right to do as he wishes with all those hard drives full of info
he has.

I also don't see commercials roms of every Jaguar game, nor do I see games that someone is presently
selling.

Not even close my friend.


No, it's not the same since it's the source code, art files, etc that he's selling. C'mon, Gorf. The only difference between what he's doing and what those who post ROMs for the same games is that he's actually making money off of it. Off of someone else's hard work. Are you really that oblivious to the hypocrisy here?

Blah blah blah....


I'm not going to argue Zero 5 or Hyperforce. I was unaware those ROMs were posted.

I agree with the guidelines that doctorclu posted.

However, I can't let this go unaddressed...

The trouble here is some of you are so used to getting things for free game wise like old betas and such that you think everyone
else owes it to some of you...or at least that is how it comes across.

Free or not....how about being happy you are getting anything from Jason at all?


What the hell does this have to do with old ROMs being posted?? Look, as I stated above, I don't agree with posting ROMs for Hyperforce or even Z5. However....what if someone were to post ROMs for T2k, AvP, Iron Soldier, Club Drive, etc. Are you going to raise the same shit storm over those as you're raising right now? I certainly understand sticking up for current publishers/devs and such, but it's more than just a little hypocritical to raise hell over those ROMs when someone else is PROFITING off of game data for many of these same games.

#24 doctorclu OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:07 AM

DoctorClu,

You make some excellent points and I pretty much agree with everything you outlined. Over seven years have passed since AtariAge went online, and the Jaguar wasn't *quite* as old back then. That was part of the rationale for not putting any commercially-released Jaguaur ROMs online. In addition, they are fairly large files (compared to the binaries for all the older Atari systems), and that was a consideration back then that is moot today. Also, there were quite a few more vendors still selling NOS Atari Jaguar games. I haven't been paying attention to the market, so I don't know if there's still a fair amount of NOS Jaguar games being sold.

If I did allow binaries to be linked and/or posted here, I absolutely would not allow anything from current day developers to be posted, unless it was posted by them or with their permission (and I would need to speak to the developer directly in the latter case).

Are there really people selling Jaguar binaries from older games?

I will give this issue some thought before I make a decision either way.


Thank you, I'm glad you liked the points that were made. :D

Yeh when AtariAge started up in what was it? 2002? The Jaguar was only five years from it's real cancellation (gauging from 1997, some would say it was most like 1995 or 1996). Now we are over a decade from that. AtariAge has seen it's own fair share of history remarkably enough.

To answer your question, for the games that of the Jaguar's prime era (focusing on 1993-1997 before the merger with JTS and ending with Fight For Life I think would be the last prime era game) no one is selling the binaries for those since you can find the images on about six rom sites. Who would buy an image?

The problem hobbyists are having is that some of those images are bad dumps. Sergi here was trying to make better images of some of the games that till now have had corrupt images.

And as you saw with CyberGolf, added the encryption so that it would work on a regular cartridge.

The only thing about Cybergolf is that is a prototype... some prototypes (like Phase Zero) are public domain, others are released with special instructions (like Brain Games... the owner of the prototype wanted it to be in the VIP section of JS2 to help drum up interest for that site... again, they gave to a cause and I have no problem with that.)

So with some prototypes we would need to ask where they came from and almost treat them like recently developed games.

Edited by doctorclu, Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:24 AM.


#25 sergi OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:28 AM

Hi to everyone

I dumped several real rare Jaguar Carts and now offer to you get them for free of horse

be happy :)

All of these games was verified on real non-modifed Jaguar via my EPROM Cart, all work correctly

May I place once again these roms, but without Hyper Force?






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