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RARE ROMs Atari Jaguar, download quicker


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#26 doctorclu ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:43 AM

Can't the whole Jaguar library be downloaded from a certain torrent from the underground anyway? I am a collector of originals, but like teenagers and music today, many gamers just want to play the game. The Wii success is based on the old games Nintendo gives away as a download.


Alison, it seems you are someone who is interested in the Jaguar, not sure what to think of it, barely have tried the Jaguar but want to. If that is not the case, don't worry, I just want to say, if you ARE I think posting the prime era roms here would be a great way for people like you to get your feet wet.

Speaking from experince, the underground torrents have the exact same information as the rom sites, and some of those roms are just as bad as the ones you'll find on those sites.

Really, I would like to see some better working images made. I think AtariAge could do it right with the people here that actually have a passion for the system.

And the hope in the end is that you'll like what you see after playing it under emulation, actually GET a Jaguar, start collecting the real games you like, and so forth.


I bought all these cart on Ebay, I don't think that seller was one of developers - it seems to me - sellers are regular collectors :sad:


Ok first off, thanks for the advice you posted on how to add the encryption key. Good to know. I have seen information on this in passing, and really probably common knowledge to the passionate Jaguar fans on JS2. But well, first I've heard told to that detail, thanks.

Ok as for your statement above... BE CAREFUL. "I bought all these carts on Ebay." True true... you can get Zero 5 and all the other Songbird and Telegames titles on Ebay. But again when it comes to games after the Jaguar prime era, they are most of the time prototypes that people found, touched up, and released.

They BOUGHT the prototype. Sometimes they get got the rights to sell copies of those games (COUGH COUGH B&C.. COUGH!) :D

In the case of Songbird, I know he has jumped through at least SOME hoops so he could produce and sell them.

So again, games after the Jaguar prime era we have to take on a case by case basis. Like Gorf said, we would need to ask Songbird and Telegames if would could add those to libraries here.

Moral of the story, if not a prime era game, look around for the sellers of those games. Ask them before posting the rom image publically. At that point, it is up to them. In the case of Zero5 Telegames is only selling that game now with deminishing inventories in the UK, but STILL, they did make a game possible that would not have been, so we need to give them the respect they're due. Look at it another way. The Atari of the Jaguar prime era is long gone, but Telegames that released those games is still very much alive.

#27 Alison DeMeyer OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:18 AM

What I am interested in is neither here nor there, all I'm saying is 'welcome to the internet', and if petrol (it's petrol yanks, not gas. Gas is something you have in your stomach when you're not well) could be posted on the internet, people would do so, and other people would download it, that's a fact.

#28 doctorclu ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:29 AM

Everything on those disc were given to him by Curt who out right bought all of it from Atari. Legally
it may be Atari's IP but Curt now has the right to do as he wishes with all those hard drives full of info
he has.

I also don't see commercials roms of every Jaguar game, nor do I see games that someone is presently
selling.

Not even close my friend.


No, it's not the same since it's the source code, art files, etc that he's selling. C'mon, Gorf. The only difference between what he's doing and what those who post ROMs for the same games is that he's actually making money off of it. Off of someone else's hard work. Are you really that oblivious to the hypocrisy here?



Really what Gorf says is about the best we have to go on. Jason got the information from Curt, Curt got it from Atari. This is basically the kind of stuff we have to ask when we deal with posting prototypes is just to know where they came from.

You know I have seen JustClaws sell his compilation of Jaguar Developer tools, which was a nice service. He took all his hours of downloading time, and made a package of all that he found, which makes a great archive and best of all, keeps us from having to spend the hours downloading and hunting down all that information too.

Jason is taking all that information, usually packaging it all up nice and neat, and making it something that can be useful. So what we are really buying is Jason's time, packaging, ect.

Now since Curt owns the first rights to this information, (from Atari to Curt to Jason), we could actually ask Curt "Can we post those source codes in the archives here that Jason is currently selling?" At this point we could look at this two ways...

1) "No, I want to support JS2 and therefore giving Jason the exclusive right to sell this"
2) "Yes, Jason made a nice compilation, but it is more or less stuff I would like to be available to others if they want to spend the HOURS downloading what Jason has made neatly available on his discs."

According to Gorf (and I see this to be true) Curt would be the point man for that material having bought it from Atari. Knowing Jason, he probably made sure all was cool with Curt before he started selling those. Curt has so many irons in the fire he probably was glad Jason could make some useful form of the material.

-------------------------------------
SOURCE CODES:
One NICE thing we could do speaking of Curt is make available alongside the rom images the source codes that he publically released here! Yes you can find them here, but wouldn't it be great to go the Jaguar library, be able to download the rom image OR the source? :D A lot of us were here when Curt released those sources (Breakout 2K being one), others however unless they dug for that in Atariage message archives later down the road, might not even know those are here.
-------------------------------------
PROTOTYPES
As I said before, anything not released commercially in the Jaguar prime era we need to consider the source. Some things might have been bought from the developer, and rights given to distribute. Some might have been bought from the developer (like Robinson's Requiem) with the strict guidelines to only keep in the buyers immediate private library not to redistribute. And some binaries might have been bought on some flash cart or Eprom cart, not even from the developer, with no rights to distribute or sell the game (like Brett Hull Hockey.) We'll just need to consider the source.
-------------------------------------
BINARIES
Prime Era-Years ago, programmers worked hard to make some great games possible. They were paid by a company to make those games. Atari released and produced practically all the games for the Jaguar, and MOST of the time the developers were paid for their services. Thank you for the work, here's your paycheck. The game was paid for. Atari took that game, made lots of cartridges (or CD's) and then sold them and made at least some money off of it. As I said already, that Atari is long gone, and their business is done. When Hasbro bought Atari, they washed their hands of the Jaguar and released it to public domain. Atari's since have not looked back to the Jaguar.

The only complications you MIGHT run into are the companies that Atari subcontracted that are still around that were hired to make those games. Are they still receiving royalties for those games? No. Some laugh when that name Jaguar is brought up. Some have freely given source codes and binaries when asked since it was so long ago now, and some are still a little protective. But really, most of those current companies have moved on to bigger and better things (current game systems) and seldom look back at the Jaguar. Again, they were paid for their services, time marched on.

Post Prime Era- I know for a fact Telegames had to work on the code of the games they released, and lot of those are good polished products. They paid for code, probably made the money back already in sales, but they ARE the distributor of their own games. This holds true for Gorf, and all current developers. They were not paid for their services by a company, they are being paid by US! :D

Songbird had to do some refinement to the games he sells, but again, his efforts are being paid by us. Jason on JS2, not as much refinement, but he puts it in a semi-usable form, so the same applies, he is being paid by us. So considering their efforts of working with this material to bring to us, it would be respectful to ask them. (Even if in some cases they really didn't have the direct right to release or sell those games we find out later, there is still their time and additions that they added to the game from when they got it.)

#29 doctorclu ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:49 AM

What I am interested in is neither here nor there, all I'm saying is 'welcome to the internet', and if petrol (it's petrol yanks, not gas. Gas is something you have in your stomach when you're not well)


LOL!! I'll let my team of contractors at work (who work in "gas") know that. :D

could be posted on the internet, people would do so, and other people would download it, that's a fact.


True. But you know, I know for a fact that I am a collector of actual 38 Special albums because I downloaded a mp3 and learned about them. I know I bought Dr. Horrible because Josh Whedon made it possible to see it for free first and I LOVED it. I know I have many shareware items that I bought because I could try them first. I know of many games that I have bought that I never would have if I didn't get to try them first (like Castle Crisis for the Atari 800 which they released a rom image for, and for those that wanted it, you could buy the game on a beautiful brown cartridge with gold lettering.. man they did a nice job making it have that Retro Atari 8-Bit look.)

I believe there are moochers, true, but there are also collectors out there. There are people who want the real thing, and will only part from their money once they had a chance to kick the tires first. I am one of those people.

In older days, and as often as possible, I would go to a friend's house and try the game if they had it, or borrow it if they'd let me. Luckily when I was starting off in the Jaguar I had a friend who had a HUGE collection. We played Club Drive, Missile Command, Rayman.. geez what else? I can't remember. I just remember those were the games I got next. :D

Tried Doom at a game dealer booth at a flea market. Bought that. Tried Double Dragon 5 at the same booth. Will never buy that. :D This is why I like to try things, some things are just sh*t. :P

My friend sold his collection and that booth went away. Later I wanted to see Attack of the Mutant Penguins... tried an image I found on a emulator (at like 40% speed.. LOL) and said from what I saw "Cool!" And hunted that game down and bought it.

People, like me, really like to see where their money is going, but again, there are a lot of things I would not have bought (38 Special albums, Dr. Horrible, Missile Command, Rayman, Club Drive, etc etc) if I did not get to try them first.

#30 doctorclu ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:12 AM

If any of you had even the foggiest clue the trouble it takes to write a Jag game,
A game WORTHY of the Jaguar, then you might understand why we are so very
serious about this issue.


Gorf, glad you, as a developer, are here in this thread. I do appreciate what you've done, and the work you've put into making games for the Jaguar. You've explained the processes, and the discoveries that you had to do to make your games possible, and to hear that has been inspiring.

Because of this, I would love it if Surrounded could be part of the Jaguar download library here should that get started. You posted that publically, but I would like that to be more part of the cannon of Jaguar games, and more easily findable in the future.

Gorf is a great piece of work, and the greatest shame is that your battles with Midway do not make it possible for more to see the fine work you put into that. Nevertheless, if AtariAge does decided to move forward with download support for the Jaguar, I will be one of the people that will respect and shoot down any attempt to publically post that game or a link to that game to be downloaded publically over the internet.

You see, if download support were made possible and Sergi posted the message that he posted today, with the rules we're putting forward I would say "Very cool, need to remove the links to Zero5 and Hyperforce however". And I would do the same for any works you've done that you had not released publically.

#31 Gorf OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:44 AM

No, it's not the same since it's the source code, art files, etc that he's selling. C'mon, Gorf. The only difference between what he's doing and what those who post ROMs for the same games is that he's actually making money off of it. Off of someone else's hard work. Are you really that oblivious to the hypocrisy here?



No its not even close and 'Blah, blah, blah' wont hide the facts.
Curt and Jason bought all the properties DIRECTLY from
Atari when they went belly up. It's theres to do as they see fit.

Sergi or most of you posting Jag ROM's you should'nt have no such rights as these two do.
Don't you realize Atari has to ask Curt NICELY if they want that stuff back? Curt can do as he wishes
and so can Jason....they paid for that right....Its not at all the same thing....like I said...not even close.



I'm not going to argue Zero 5 or Hyperforce. I was unaware those ROMs were posted.


How about a denouncing of the action? God forbid!


I agree with the guidelines that doctorclu posted.



Not suprising....someone who has no stake in any of these and therefore has no say.
:roll:

However, I can't let this go unaddressed...

What the hell does this have to do with old ROMs being posted?? Look, as I stated above, I don't agree with posting ROMs for Hyperforce or even Z5. However....what if someone were to post ROMs for T2k, AvP, Iron Soldier, Club Drive, etc. Are you going to raise the same shit storm over those as you're raising right now? I certainly understand sticking up for current publishers/devs and such, but it's more than just a little hypocritical to raise hell over those ROMs when someone else is PROFITING off of game data for many of these same games.



Hypocrisy would be if complained about the same thing on one side and not the other....not even remotely
the case here......just so it gets through this time......I repeat......


Curt and Jason bought all the properties( paid for with their OWN money and effort) DIRECTLY from
Atari when they went belly up. It's theres to do as they see fit. At this point Atari gave them the legal
right to spread the info if they so choose to.

What it has to do with it is the fact that some of you think you are 'owed' it and therefore make you own rules
ignoring what you KNOW is right(or maybe you are just that unable to see that it is wrong.)


T2k, AvP, Iron Soldier, Club Drive, .......do you or Sergi or any of your ROMz proponents
in the right to do so?

I did'nt think so.



What you guys are doing is this....since you obviously missed it....

JagMod wrote:

How about I siphon a gallon of gas out of your car every night.
Its got to be ok since you never said I couldn't.
I'll stop only if/when you ask me to.



#32 Gorf OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:46 AM

If any of you had even the foggiest clue the trouble it takes to write a Jag game,
A game WORTHY of the Jaguar, then you might understand why we are so very
serious about this issue.


Gorf, glad you, as a developer, are here in this thread. I do appreciate what you've done, and the work you've put into making games for the Jaguar. You've explained the processes, and the discoveries that you had to do to make your games possible, and to hear that has been inspiring.

Because of this, I would love it if Surrounded could be part of the Jaguar download library here should that get started. You posted that publically, but I would like that to be more part of the cannon of Jaguar games, and more easily findable in the future.

Gorf is a great piece of work, and the greatest shame is that your battles with Midway do not make it possible for more to see the fine work you put into that. Nevertheless, if AtariAge does decided to move forward with download support for the Jaguar, I will be one of the people that will respect and shoot down any attempt to publically post that game or a link to that game to be downloaded publically over the internet.

You see, if download support were made possible and Sergi posted the message that he posted today, with the rules we're putting forward I would say "Very cool, need to remove the links to Zero5 and Hyperforce however". And I would do the same for any works you've done that you had not released publically.



Now all I ever asked is to extend that courtesy to developers and rights owners, even if they had NOT
made their opinions known?

#33 doctorclu ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:01 AM

Now all I ever asked is to extend that courtesy to developers and rights owners, even if they had NOT
made their opinions known?


Extending that to the post prime era developers like you, Songbird, Telegames, and so forth is easy. For the most part we have you guys still active and posting in the forums, we know where to ask you, and again, your bread and butter is being paid by us the fans and hobbyists. Not a problem whatsoever. (yep for those just tuning in, we actually got visited by Telegames once here on AtariAge. The representative from Telegames must have been new to their company, wanted to know how to better make products and sell their Atari material. He was unnervingly nice compared to our other dealings with Telegames...)

Prime era developers who were under the Atari payroll, if I/we could contact each and every one of them, I/we would. They are fascinating to talk to. And one by one we are finding them (or they are finding us). You know what we are finding as we do find them? They are glad that people so much as remember what they made.

They were paid by Atari (or on other systems Atari or some other third party company), and they come across this place and just love how we feature their game. They play in the high score clubs with us, and share whatever else they have. Usually the prime era developers do not have this as their bread and butter anymore like the post prime developers do.


Speaking of "prime era games" you'll love this one... Bubsy... I went round and round for over a year trying to get the attorneys at Atari Inc. (Infogramms) to even REMEMBER if they had the rights to Bubsy/Bubsy Bobcat (they should have since they aquired Accolade, and heck because they had Bubsy made for the Atari Jaguar, you'd think they would at least have the rights to that right?). I was trying to make sure a lot of things... one, if I could get permission to do something with the character (feature in a game, sell Bubsy related material for the Jaguar, etc), two, to even establish if they had any archives of Bubsy source code, and really, they are a black hole. The attorneys were really nice, but in the end of asking, them looking, me asking some more, them looking some more and this rinse cycle repeating several more times they eventually threw up their hands after over a year and said "We can't really find anything maybe you can check this copyright site?" And gave me a site with a copyright search engine that when I tried to plug in Bubsy nothing came up.

This is why I say that for about 99.8% of the time, posting the prime era roms and binaries for the Atari game systems will not run into any problems. We post them here out of respect, to build a love for the Atari platforms, for people to take them apart, modify them, or just study them, and in the process get a better understanding for what the developers went through to make the games. The old developers show up, and we ask them questions about what we learned about the program from the above mentioned tinkering before they arrived here on AtariAge. And most developers are flattered to know that people not ONLY remembered their game, but looked under the hood and saw their handiwork and toil behind the pretty pictures and graphics. And at that point we get to talk shop with the developers. :D

The .2% is when old companies (like Activision) comes along saying they are selling archives of their past games and to remove the game from the download areas, which is done promptly.

And when have we really ever heard from current Atari? If someone tries to use a name copyrighted by Atari for a current product (as we saw with Combat 2 and Adventure 2), or if someone tries to sell a product with the Atari logo. Then Atari comes knocking.

Until then, we never hear anything. And AtariAge has had rom images easily accessable here on the other Atari platforms here for years. I'm sure Atari knows.

So to summarize:

Post Prime era material... not a problem, we can easily find you and ask you if we have or don't have your permission to post binaries.
Prime era material ... we WANT to find the developers and companies, glad to see them when we CAN find them, would take the binaries down in a heartbeat if asked to.

Edited by doctorclu, Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:13 AM.


#34 Curt Vendel OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:26 AM

Hi Steve,

Lets make sure you and everyone clearly understand - what was sent to Jason to compile into his CD's was data that I salvaged off of HD's, Syqeusts, diskettes and backup tapes that were recovered out of the trash from behind 1196 Borregas when the building was closing. There was a massive dumpster in the back, the whole top was covered with trash bins, boxes and junk, but an hour of digging got me down to the middle and bottom where the treasure trove of materials was found.

I didn't buy anything from Atari, they through it all out into the trash and closed up the building, I recovered the physical materials, recovered them and made them PC readable. Jason bought his materials from a former Atari employee - but not directly from Atari, JTS, etc...



To everyone else,


I don't call what Jason has done with his Jag Extreme collection wrong - I support it, hence why I gave him all of the materials to put onto it. I personally logged in hundreds of hours recovering those materials - Jason put in a substantial amount of time compiling it and creating the CD's - getting paid for the work of presenting those materials for people to access I think was very reasonable.

If you're complaining about what Jason does - don't. Instead - make your own product, put in your own time and put it out yourself. I left the Jag community a few years back because - to be honest - everyone was acting like whiny little babies. I came back, spent time to support it and would still like to contiinue to support it, but if you guys can't manage to spend your time doing positive things like developing code - sharing code, maybe working on some hw projects... but you'd rather piss away each week arguing with each other, then throw your Jag's out and find a new hobby because this is becoming a waste of friggin time.


Curt

Just curious, but do you have the same issue with Jay Smith profiting off the "Extremist" packs that he openly sells on JSII?


Everything on those disc were given to him by Curt who out right bought all of it from Atari. Legally
it may be Atari's IP but Curt now has the right to do as he wishes with all those hard drives full of info
he has.

I also don't see commercials roms of every Jaguar game, nor do I see games that someone is presently
selling.

Not even close my friend.

Again, you people wonder why us Jaguar developers have issues releasing Please enlighten us as to what exactly is WORTHY of being on the Jaguar. Honestly, I didn't see what ROMs are posted, but if there's some imaginary marker of quality for games that are WORTHY of being on the Jaguar, odds are that none of the ROMs posted really fit that description.



Zero5, as much as I do not really like the game is clearly a lot of hard work. Hyperforce probably was not done in an afternoon.

The trouble here is some of you are so used to getting things for free game wise like old betas and such that you think everyone
else owes it to some of you...or at least that is how it comes across.

Free or not....how about being happy you are getting anything from Jason at all?

I like free stuff, but I certainly appreciate those that work hard on this stuf and I
show that buy buying the game. Im not asking for handouts. A person is worthy
of what little he may get back for his time and effort. That goes for homebrewers
or the guys that wrote these games for Atari and already got screwed from
that whole deal.

Standing back a little to see the entire picture is helpful. You are being very one-
sided on this toward the ROMer's.

It just come across like we have nothing better to do than to spend our spare time
writing games for your pleasure. God forbid we dare ask for reasonable compensation
for our time an effort. Concept: How about asking permission of Carl or Telegames
before going ahead and just posting ROMs?

Is that really asking too much?


Edited by Curt Vendel, Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:35 AM.


#35 doctorclu ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:32 AM

I don't call what Jason has done with his Jag Extreme collection wrong - I support it, hence why I gave him all of the materials to put onto it. I personally logged in hundreds of hours recovering those materials - Jason put in a substantial amount of time compiling it and creating the CD's - getting paid for the work of presenting those materials for people to access I think was very reasonable.

If you're complaining about what Jason does - don't. Instead - make your own product, put in your own time and put it out yourself. I left the Jag community a few years back because - to be honest - everyone was acting like whiny little babies. I came back, spent time to support it and would still like to contiinue to support it, but if you guys can't manage to spend your time doing positive things like developing code - sharing code, maybe working on some hw projects... but you'd rather piss away each week arguing with each other, then throw your Jag's out and find a new hobby because this is becoming a waste of friggin time.

Curt


I like this line best...

I came back, spent time to support it and would still like to contiinue to support it, but if you guys can't manage to spend your time doing positive things like developing code - sharing code, maybe working on some hw projects...

Curt, thank you for chiming in, I was really hoping to get around to talking to you on that. Thank you.

Really I think this thread is dealing with a pivital issue in the Jaguar realm that many have been asking under their breaths for years. I really hope that when the smoke clears we will finally have an understanding of what's what.

Curt's input gives a clearer understanding for me of what we're dealing with. The Atari information was found in a dumpster. And that was all that was left of that encarnation of Atari, a dumpster and a pile of garbage.

Now I have to say THANK YOU FOR SAVING ALL THAT YOU HAVE. Wow.

Now I have mentioned before the way we can approach prime era and post prime era binaries. Prime era were made by programmers paid by Atari, that Atari is gone... long live Atari, we post them here. The post prime era, and here is the kicker, was usually brought to us via the TIME of hobbyists since.

So what does it come down to ladies and gents? Respect for the TIME those post Prime Era hobbyists and developers put into making those bits of information available to us.

So the question you'll need to ask is "Jason, mind if I post the source code off your Source code collection to this message thread?" for example. Or Curt 's ongoing beef "Hey Curt, can I use that picture of the Cosmos game system that you took time to take?" :P (People keep ripping off that and other pictures of hardware protos he's taken.)

Respect my friends. Respect to ask people before we post things on here that they put time into for the post prime era Jaguar stuff.

Respect to take down binaries should we ever get approached to take any prime era material down.

As Curt pointed out, he saved that stuff from the trash so it would get used and to support the Jaguar realm. He obviously wants it used. So all you have to do is approach the people that have put time into the recovery efforts and see what avenue they will let you use and or distribute that information.

I think these rules of respect should be easy enough for AtariAge to follow. What do you guys think?

Edited by doctorclu, Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:35 AM.


#36 Gorf OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:29 AM

Hi Steve,


Hi Curt,

Lets make sure you and everyone clearly understand - what was sent to Jason to compile into his CD's was data that I salvaged off of HD's, Syqeusts, diskettes and backup tapes that were recovered out of the trash from behind 1196 Borregas when the building was closing. There was a massive dumpster in the back, the whole top was covered with trash bins, boxes and junk, but an hour of digging got me down to the middle and bottom where the treasure trove of materials was found.
I didn't buy anything from Atari, they through it all out into the trash and closed up the building, I recovered the physical materials, recovered them and made them PC readable. Jason bought his materials from a former Atari employee - but not directly from Atari, JTS, etc...


Ok either way, it is all material Atari abandoned and is rightfully yours to do as you and (therfore) Jason see fit.

I don't call what Jason has done with his Jag Extreme collection wrong - I support it, hence why I gave him all of the materials to put onto it. I personally logged in hundreds of hours recovering those materials - Jason put in a substantial amount of time compiling it and creating the CD's - getting paid for the work of presenting those materials for people to access I think was very reasonable.


So, what's different about what I said?


If you're complaining about what Jason does - don't. Instead - make your own product, put in your own time and put it out yourself.


I think you got me confused with someone else bud.......It's Sauron making such complaints.
Im defending you AND Jason.

....and.....I am making products...I sent you one that you have yet to acknowledge you recieved.
;)

There are tools on the way that will finally allow me to finish the dozen of so titles Iv'e already worked quite hard on
and my only complaint is seeing clowns post games Like Hyperforce......Im sure Carl is not happy, or at least
he should not be.

I left the Jag community a few years back because - to be honest - everyone was acting like whiny little babies.


Well, I've always felt this to be a whinny stance whenever I hear it. Stay and make it better. I have
even with all the BS. Using your logic I should have left in '96.


I came back, spent time to support it and would still like to contiinue to support it, but if you guys can't manage to spend your time doing positive things like developing code - sharing code, maybe working on some hw projects... but you'd rather piss away each week arguing with each other, then throw your Jag's out and find a new hobby because this is becoming a waste of friggin time.



The agrument is about people taking hard work from people and posting it as if they have some right to.

Im not wasting anytime. I spent more than my fair share behind an alpine Curt, and you yourself have
some fruits of that which is under way. They will be finished when I have the needed tools to finish them in
much less stressful manner. Main code development is a complete nightmare. The assembler in the works
is actually assembling old hand coded MAIN code and RUNNING! There are still other bugs to clean yet.

I think you missed the point I made with all of this quite honestly. It sucks seeing people post roms from
active developers and if we are going to bother, we are going to complain when we see it. Where is this
unreasonable? We should not say something? I wont stand by silent and niether should you.

#37 Curt Vendel OFFLINE  

Curt Vendel

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:33 AM

I personally feel that way as well... look the older non-production games on the 2600, 5200, 7800, Lynx and 8bits are all out there.

There is and very well should be the respect for current authors of games - that those games should be offlimits to post or distribute, that should be directly up to the author to release or permit their game to become PD.

Now, going back to the Jag Extremist paks, they are now out there and Jason has done his run, a small portion of what is on the last one I've posted up onto PD, in here and on JSII as a matter of fact. Anything else is pretty much up for grabs now that its out there and Jason and I discussed this prior to the last Extremist Pak coming out that I would eventually be posting more of the materials up onto Atarimuseum because I did my work, Jason did his - we sold the CD's and that project is done, now the code is out there for all.

If you want to put this all to bed - really simple - if you are planning or want to plan to release Jag Bin's that are quite recent, then contact the coder or the person who is selling cart versions of the games still and get their permission first and show some common, moral and professional respect for others... its that simple, no flame wars, fights, spitting, etc... just ask first, check first, then post. Simple.




Curt

#38 Gorf OFFLINE  

Gorf

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:42 AM

I personally feel that way as well... look the older non-production games on the 2600, 5200, 7800, Lynx and 8bits are all out there.

There is and very well should be the respect for current authors of games - that those games should be offlimits to post or distribute, that should be directly up to the author to release or permit their game to become PD.

Now, going back to the Jag Extremist paks, they are now out there and Jason has done his run, a small portion of what is on the last one I've posted up onto PD, in here and on JSII as a matter of fact. Anything else is pretty much up for grabs now that its out there and Jason and I discussed this prior to the last Extremist Pak coming out that I would eventually be posting more of the materials up onto Atarimuseum because I did my work, Jason did his - we sold the CD's and that project is done, now the code is out there for all.

If you want to put this all to bed - really simple - if you are planning or want to plan to release Jag Bin's that are quite recent, then contact the coder or the person who is selling cart versions of the games still and get their permission first and show some common, moral and professional respect for others... its that simple, no flame wars, fights, spitting, etc... just ask first, check first, then post. Simple.




Curt


That is all Im saying. The rest is coming down from those that feel they have a right otherwise.
I get bludgeoned because I dare point it out. Me and Carl are hardly what anyone who knows our
past, friendly but I feel he deserves the same respect as any one else working on software.

I'd like to think Im doing a service by telling these 'fans' that they are not encouraging anyone
to spend tons of time and effort on a Jag game, when folks are just going to blatantly post
the products they pumped a lot of effort into all over the forums.

P.S. I think this thread has run its course quite frankly.

#39 doctorclu ONLINE  

doctorclu

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:51 AM

I personally feel that way as well... look the older non-production games on the 2600, 5200, 7800, Lynx and 8bits are all out there.


The work of a lot of generous people who found prototypes along the way.

Now, going back to the Jag Extremist paks, they are now out there and Jason has done his run, a small portion of what is on the last one I've posted up onto PD, in here and on JSII as a matter of fact. Anything else is pretty much up for grabs now that its out there and Jason and I discussed this prior to the last Extremist Pak coming out that I would eventually be posting more of the materials up onto Atarimuseum because I did my work, Jason did his - we sold the CD's and that project is done, now the code is out there for all.


AWESOME!! :D (And I look forward to seeing his source code collection soon...)

If you want to put this all to bed - really simple - if you are planning or want to plan to release Jag Bin's that are quite recent, then contact the coder or the person who is selling cart versions of the games still and get their permission first and show some common, moral and professional respect for others... its that simple, no flame wars, fights, spitting, etc... just ask first, check first, then post. Simple.


Yep yep... just wrote Songbird, plan to write Telegames soon. Figure we'll find out what they want to do either way, but I am asking.

I expect them to say no posting of their binaries, and when that happens, I'll report it back as official, end of story, no posting theit games.

As I said before, this thread is about establishing what's what, so if you know someone out there that you would like to have them display their work, or material here on Atariage, do ask. We can note in the archives here who has been asked. Obviously if they say yes the material will be there. If they say no, we can get Al to post a flag "Developer asked and retained the rights to not have their binaries displayed online."

Just a flag to say once and for all "We've asked, don't bug em further". ;)

Hell, might just use THAT as the flag. :D

And we'll leave instructions to the developers/hobbyists, should they change their mind THEY can contact AtariAge about it (and who to talk to.)

#40 Gorf OFFLINE  

Gorf

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:56 AM

Excellent Clue!

Also, @ Curt......My appologies for getting the info wrong on how that Atari materials
were attained. By bad.

:)

#41 Alison DeMeyer OFFLINE  

Alison DeMeyer

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:52 PM

How about I siphon a gallon of gas out of your car every night.
Its got to be ok since you never said I couldn't.
I'll stop only if/when you ask me to.


Not quite the same comparison, as a copy leaves the original intact, siphon of does not. You can, of course, copy some petrol out of my petrol tank. Now, Sergi has the original, and offers downloads, I presume?

Edited by Alison DeMeyer, Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:54 PM.


#42 Sauron OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:58 PM

Ok either way, it is all material Atari abandoned and is rightfully yours to do as you and (therfore) Jason see fit.


It's no more or less their right to release this material as it is for others to post ROMs of the same game.

I think you got me confused with someone else bud.......It's Sauron making such complaints.
Im defending you AND Jason.


My only complaint about what Jason is doing has more to do with how the horde mentality of many Jag fans (such as yourself) have no problem with what he's doing but throw a shit-fit about ROMs of the same games being posted. I have no problem whatsoever with this material being distributed to the Jag community. What I do have a problem with is the hypocrisy which I've already pointed out.

The agrument is about people taking hard work from people and posting it as if they have some right to.


You keep missing the point, and in the process keep inaccurately labeling these people as thinking they have a "right" to post anything. They have as much of a right to post ROMs for older games and Jason or Curt or anyone else has of releasing/selling development assets of these same games.

I think you missed the point I made with all of this quite honestly. It sucks seeing people post roms from
active developers and if we are going to bother, we are going to complain when we see it. Where is this
unreasonable? We should not say something? I wont stand by silent and niether should you.


I won't argue this at all, and will agree 100%. Yet you still keep trying to twist the release of ANY ROMs as stealing food from someone's table.

#43 remowilliams OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:15 PM

Thanks doctorclu for attempting to bring a reasonable discussion to bear in this area (for a change). And thanks to the other rational participants in the thread. ;)

#44 JagMod OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:26 PM

How about I siphon a gallon of gas out of your car every night.
Its got to be ok since you never said I couldn't.
I'll stop only if/when you ask me to.


Not quite the same comparison, as a copy leaves the original intact, siphon of does not. You can, of course, copy some petrol out of my petrol tank. Now, Sergi has the original, and offers downloads, I presume?

Ok, just so I'm following you, Its ok to steal, sometimes?

#45 Alison DeMeyer OFFLINE  

Alison DeMeyer

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:58 PM

Who's stealing when offered? All I was saying that his comparison is not quite right. I guess you don't follow?

Edited by Alison DeMeyer, Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:59 PM.


#46 doctorclu ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:28 PM

Thanks doctorclu for attempting to bring a reasonable discussion to bear in this area (for a change). And thanks to the other rational participants in the thread. ;)


:) Pretty much Sauron & Gorf and Allison & JagMod talking past each other on comments while a parade of people swing by saying "Glad we are getting this discussion out of the way, been a long time coming."

And in the meantime I'm been talking to developers. Already figured out what Gorf wants to do (Surrounded is released as a BJL file and ok in that form to be in the new Jaguar file archive.) Question sent to Songbird, and try to get a message out to Telegames tonight. All this to establish what the developers want to do and honor those decisions. Will probably ask Scatoloigc just for completeness in asking.

Meantime some are working to test the prime era roms and find a good set in case Al decides to post the prime era roms on Atariage. (Again the Prime era are the commercial games from the start of the Jaguar clear up to Fight for Life and up to the merger or Atari with JTS.

#47 Gorf OFFLINE  

Gorf

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Posted Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:21 PM

It's no more or less their right to release this material as it is for others to post ROMs of the same game.


It's not even close. This stuff was thrown out apparently. It's quite obvious Atari did not care
about these.

My only complaint about what Jason is doing has more to do with how the horde mentality of many Jag fans (such as yourself)
have no problem with what he's doing but throw a shit-fit about ROMs of the same games being posted. I have no problem
whatsoever with this material being distributed to the Jag community. What I do have a problem with is the hypocrisy which
I've already pointed out.



There you go again (my Ronaldus Magnus impression) with that overstatement 'horde'. Again, it comes across as
you having a right to EVERY app out there. Its seeing viable games from exsisting developers/producers of Jaguar
games such as HyperForce and Zero5 being nonchalantly posted about. I find this a blatant disrespect of others
property. The fact is turning a blind eye to the DL'ing of the 'old washed up tiltes' being downloaded will lead to
abuse....give an inch take a mile theory.

HORDE is a better term served for the likes of those that HORDE every ROm they can find, even when they have no
right to. Hypocrisy does not apply here. My shitfit was aimed at the viable titles. It is you throwing the shit fit my friend.



You keep missing the point, and in the process keep inaccurately labeling these people as thinking they have a "right" to post anything.


If they dont 'think' the have a right then why do they act as if they do?

They have as much of a right to post ROMs for older games and Jason or Curt or anyone else has of releasing/selling development assets of these same games.


I see apples and oranges here, sorry.

I won't argue this at all, and will agree 100%.
Yet you still keep trying to twist the release of ANY ROMs as stealing food from someone's table.


Im not twisting anything. I dont think you should DL anything you dont own. I still think
people should try to get permission. Im willing to bet it would be quite easy to convince
Atari to allow public domain release of the old Jag games. The real problem I have is
no one that does this downloading ever makes such an attempt, yet they have all the
tiem in the world to post the ROMS....post a few e-mails to the proper people instead.

There are a few systems out there where all the roms have been released so with those
I have no issue with.

#48 Albert ONLINE  

Albert

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Posted Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:49 AM

It's no more or less their right to release this material as it is for others to post ROMs of the same game.


It's not even close. This stuff was thrown out apparently. It's quite obvious Atari did not care
about these.

I do not agree with you on this, but will discuss it with you privately as I'd like to keep this thread on track.

So, please, let's keep the tack following DoctorClu's lead, as I think he's done a great job of putting together some guidelines on material that most people would not object to being posted and what we should clearly steer clear of.

Thanks!

..Al

#49 Gorf OFFLINE  

Gorf

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Posted Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:35 PM

It's no more or less their right to release this material as it is for others to post ROMs of the same game.


It's not even close. This stuff was thrown out apparently. It's quite obvious Atari did not care
about these.

I do not agree with you on this, but will discuss it with you privately as I'd like to keep this thread on track.

So, please, let's keep the tack following DoctorClu's lead, as I think he's done a great job of putting together some guidelines on material that most people would not object to being posted and what we should clearly steer clear of.

Thanks!

..Al



I agree and I think all who distribute anything in question, no matter who it is should at least
make an attempt. I had my aggravation with Gorf.....Im just talking from experience. I should
have dug deeper into the matter. I m thankful Midway was amazingly pleasant about the whole
ordeal.

Im telling you, if I ever come in to some real money, I'll license Gorf for all classic plats! Until
then, I have to respect their wishes.... :(

#50 Songbird OFFLINE  

Songbird

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Posted Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:56 PM

This has been a good discussion on this topic, and I appreciate the respect shown by Steve (gorf) and Greg (dclu) and Albert and other fans towards licensed properties published or owned by Songbird. Right now, I do not have time to think about or discuss this in great detail, so please do not post or distribute any Songbird properties (e.g. ROMs).

I would also like to point out that Phase Zero is a property licensed by Songbird for the Jaguar from the original developers. It was a bit of an oddball situation, because the ROM was made available publicly prior to Songbird acquiring the license, but it is not public domain.




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