TMR Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 As a matter of fact, I'd like to see more examples of Atari games that make good use of DLI colour splits. I don't mean just whacking a gradient in a sky (although that can look very nice) or just a somewhat distracting rainbow colourbar effect behind some background (Alternate Reality style), but actual clever use of colour splits. I remember the example reworking of Konami's Ping Pong that was floating around these forums some time ago (by Tezz, I think?). That was pretty damn cool. As was TMR's sneak preview of his Atari shmup. Really...?! i was just taking the piss with that to be honest, all the rubbish about more colours being more beautiful and so forth. There's a fully-functioning game there of course (because i'm nothing if not thorough) but i'm not going to release it in that form because the attack waves were okay but very inflexible; the far less colourful version i've been working on over the last few days still splits one of the playfield colours but sacrifices the rest for better sprite control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 personally, i just like the ATARI better.. It's true you can squeeze more tricks out of the commodore chipset.. But I like the atari better.. i liek it's OS.. I like it's hardware design.. Hell, i even like its characteristic limitations.. I have both systems.. Y'know, i was with you up until... On sits on a shelf collecting dust.. guess which one that is.. ..the dig. There wasn't any need really, was there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnacle boy Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) @TMR Well I wouldn't want that much colour at the expense of better sprite control, but still, it was weirdly appealing in a wild '70s colour kind of way. And who can resist smooth colour gradients? Not me. Plus the potential for more restrained shading was clearly there. It got me dreaming about how it would look with a consistent backlight/fill-light tone on the underside of the tubes. For example: picture a grey tube with a blue backlight giving it blue tones on the underside. Then elswhere on the screen, a reddish tube with purpleish shading on the underside - the purpleish colour being due to the effect of the blue backlight illuminating the reddish surface. I love stuff like that. And although I think the c64's palette is extremely well-chosen (I doubt I'd be able to pick a fixed 16 colour palette that is more widely usable than the c64's), there are still times when you just can't get the shade you want. Seeing some of those unattainable shades in action (particularly deep greens) does give me a bit of a thrill. Edited October 15, 2009 by Barnacle boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Well I wouldn't want that much colour at the expense of better sprite control, but still, it was weirdly appealing in a wild '70s colour kind of way. And who can resist smooth colour gradients? Not me. The colours basically resulted in the sprite movement being nailed down onto rails! Play Mirax Force and it's like that, just with the launching of attackers synchronised to the backgrounds. Plus the potential for more restrained shading was clearly there. It got me dreaming about how it would look with a consistent backlight/fill-light tone on the underside of the tubes. For example: picture a grey tube with a blue backlight giving it blue tones on the underside. Then elswhere on the screen, a reddish tube with purpleish shading on the underside - the purpleish colour being due to the effect of the blue backlight illuminating the reddish surface. That's pretty much what i'm aiming for on the revised version (anyone following my blog or on Facebook has now seen version 2, i'm up to version 3 here!) although as i said i've just got splits on one playfield colour so it uses dark and light grey for low and highlights and just splits the mid range; i also have the option (since it's in character mode) of using the extra playfield colour as well although that's hopefully going to be used to generate the mid range colour for the player's ship too and therefore has to remain fixed for the whole screen. But i'll just echo what andym00 and if memory serves Bryan said previously, there's a metric shedload of work involved just going over the same ground in different ways to see what'll actually fly - don't hold your breath, because if this buggers up and dies when the software sprites go in i might need to start sacrificing features to make everything work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+thegoldenband Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) I've been reading this thread off and on for a while now. I understand the concerns about Commodore users "stirring the pot" and such, and I understand that the OP was looking specifically for games that are better on the Atari 8-bit. That's fine. But I really, really hope that no one -- including the moderators -- think there should be one standard of behavior for Atari users in this thread, and another for C64 users, simply because this happens to be an Atari website. Treating each other with respect and civility is an obligation, and I think that everyone who slips in little "digs" and otherwise engages in trash-talking is bringing disrepute on the site, whether they're doing so in favor of Atari or of the C64. There's been some really nasty, disrespectful, and (above all) hypocritical stuff posted by certain people in the last 20-22 pages, and I'm kind of astonished they've gotten away with it. I don't even have a horse in this race -- I've never owned a working C64 or A8, and was mainly a Tandy and Apple user as a kid -- and some of the things that've been said have made my blood boil. I think words like "biased" and "hater" should be banned from this thread, because everyone who's using those words seems to be using them as a replacement for "Anything that suggests my machine is better is objectively true and a fact, but anything that suggests your machine is better is a dirty lie made up by haters and trolls." People who act in that manner should not be welcome here, period. We are not on opposing teams, or members of tribes, or armies at war. We are all equals -- or, at least, civility demands that we act that way -- and we all deserve the benefit of the doubt. Anyone who can't be civil shouldn't be posting. Also, for God's sake, will certain people start proofreading their posts? Show everyone some respect, and go to the effort to make your posts legible and properly formatted. If you're in such a hurry (or such a rage!) that you're leaving multiple broken tags in your post, then maybe you shouldn't be posting at all until things calm down. Edited October 15, 2009 by thegoldenband 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 personally, i just like the ATARI better.. It's true you can squeeze more tricks out of the commodore chipset.. But I like the atari better.. i liek it's OS.. I like it's hardware design.. Hell, i even like its characteristic limitations.. I have both systems.. On sits on a shelf collecting dust.. guess which one that is.. Blasphemy!! On another topic entirely......you should hire yourself out to do A8 mods....now and in the future. (just a thought and suggestion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) So, in your expert opinion would you care to enlighten me what was copied ? Regarding The Knight Orc Controversy (Coming soon, from Robert Ludlum), I wonder if the few posters here who are complaining that the comparison is somehow invalid would have objected if the situation were reversed. Imagine if the Atari version had graphics while c64 version was text only, and it had been posted earlier in the thread as an example of a game being better on Atari than on c64. Would the guys complaining now have piped up saying it didn't count? Or would they have accepted that, yes, the lack of graphics is a valid and significant negative point in the comparison. I agree that Rockford could be less inflammatory with his wording in his comparisons. But still, instead of beating around the bush with cries of 'TROLL!', or with talk about the original purpose of the thread (a few hundred pages after derailment), or with objecting to each and every comparison (doesn't count cos one doesn't have graphics! not golden age! lazy programmer! etc), why not just come out and say "I don't want to see any more examples where the c64 version of a game is better than the Atari version." And fair enough if you don't want to see any more. This is Atariage. You come here to soak up some Atari goodness. Maybe one day TMR will fire up his platform agnostic site for these discussions and everyone can go at it until the cows come home. But at the moment, it's looking like some of you have realised that Rockford probably has a list of fifty or more comparisons to get through, and you're looking for ways to shut him down without really acknowledging why you wish he'd just go away. Hardly,,, again for the slow... he is making selective choices NOT indicative of system capabilities. Just for those who pop up with nonsense. Also on TROll.. if the shoe fits,wear it! Edited October 15, 2009 by atarian63 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) personally, i just like the ATARI better.. It's true you can squeeze more tricks out of the commodore chipset.. But I like the atari better.. i liek it's OS.. I like it's hardware design.. Hell, i even like its characteristic limitations.. I have both systems.. Y'know, i was with you up until... On sits on a shelf collecting dust.. guess which one that is.. ..the dig. There wasn't any need really, was there? If I understand Metalguy (and perhaps I do not) he is a big-time Amiga guy and could probably out-Amiga all of you numbnuts put together. As for the fact that he likes the A8 also....well, you're just going to have to DEAL WITH THAT. So if you think the Amiga is so great (and you wouldn't be a true Commie-lover if you don't) don't discount this guy. Maybe **ALL** of Jay Miner's handiwork isn't so bad??? Sorry if it excludes your 64. Edited October 15, 2009 by wood_jl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 But i'll just echo what andym00 and if memory serves Bryan said previously, there's a metric shedload of work involved just going over the same ground in different ways to see what'll actually fly Ah yes, but that is the zen of coding- letting the hardware tell you if your idea was a good one. Leave the straightforward, bloated, foolproof (and profitable) routines to the Windows programmers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Fine C64 viewing from 1983,typical of what I recall. Looks like an Atari 2600 game (no insult to 2600) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) Atari A8 Frogger Vs C64 Frogger. The c64 version is all wrong, gameplay is way off and is graphically inferior. An example of where A8 is better. No to mention that angry bee godawful sound! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okm0VtF2gH8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okm0VtF2gH8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGInejZYO9ghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGInejZYO9g Edited October 15, 2009 by atarian63 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) personally, i just like the ATARI better.. It's true you can squeeze more tricks out of the commodore chipset.. But I like the atari better.. i liek it's OS.. I like it's hardware design.. Hell, i even like its characteristic limitations.. I hear you. I appreciate the total approach Atari had to the system. Atari was prevented from having externally accessible slots due to the TV interface (the FCC was very strict at the time) but they still managed to make the system easy to expand and wrote an OS with enough abstraction to allow existing software to access new devices as they became available. My feeling toward the 64 was that it was powerful, but with less overall attention to detail. Of course, games were driving the market so the 64 had it where it counts. I owned an 800 for almost two years before anyone even heard of a 64, and for that time it was certainly a step up from a VIC-20. Edited October 15, 2009 by Bryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) You want a game that looked alot better on the atari? How about Koronis Rift by Lucasfilm.. http://www.mobygames.com/game/c64/koronis-rift/screenshots http://www.atarimania.com/detail_soft.php?MENU=8&VERSION_ID=2836 Maybe its a matter of preference.. But I think the atari version looks alot kewler.. Edited October 15, 2009 by MEtalGuy66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Whooaahh.. Wait a minute.. Damn this is a fast moving thread.. First, I never said i didnt LIKe the C=64.. I just said I prefer the ATARI. And for most of what I do, that's true.. Every once in a blue moon, I dig out the C=64 and play the games I liked on it.. Theres quite a few that have no "equal version" on any platform.. Legacy of the Ancients is one that comes to mind... And I didn't mean anything derogatory by stating that it sits on a shelf collecting dust.. actually, Ive got it wrapped in plastic to keep the dust and UVs off of it.. I also have a Crapple IIc mothballed in similar fashion, and there's a few games I really like on that platform too (most notably the Wizardry series.) Yeah.. I'm an AMIGA "fanboy" (as it has been so politely put before).. In the 16-bit world, the AMIGA is clearly the vastly superior machine, regardless of it's origins or brand-name.. the ATARI ST is a steaming pile of dog crap by comparisson.. But theres plenty of people who can "out-AMIGA" me.. heh.. I sold all my "big box" AMIGAs a few years back, and all I have is an A500+ 030/50mhz now.. It does everything I like doing on that platform.. As far as hiring myself out to do mods... I AM FOR HIRE.. And i have been doing atari mods for decades.. And i do really nice work for CHEAP.. Try me.. i can give lots of references.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 You want a game that looked alot better on the atari? How about Koronis Rift by Lucasfilm.. http://www.mobygames...ift/screenshots http://www.atarimani...VERSION_ID=2836 Maybe its a matter of preference.. But I think the atari version looks alot kewler.. It's NOT a matter of preference... The Atari shows approx. 48 colours , has a depth layer more, and the hills got faded in and out softly (using the colour palette ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 As a matter of fact, I'd like to see more examples of Atari games that make good use of DLI colour splits. I don't mean just whacking a gradient in a sky (although that can look very nice) or just a somewhat distracting rainbow colourbar effect behind some background (Alternate Reality style), but actual clever use of colour splits. I remember the example reworking of Konami's Ping Pong that was floating around these forums some time ago (by Tezz, I think?). That was pretty damn cool. As was TMR's sneak preview of his Atari shmup. Really...?! i was just taking the piss with that to be honest, all the rubbish about more colours being more beautiful and so forth... Get over it. Regardless of what you think, the beast in the beauty and beast will never win over the beauties in a beauty pageant. Without purposely distorting colors (abusing them), more colors and shades make the world a more beautiful place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 ... Treating each other with respect and civility is an obligation, and I think that everyone who slips in little "digs" and otherwise engages in trash-talking is bringing disrepute on the site, whether they're doing so in favor of Atari or of the C64. There's been some really nasty, disrespectful, and (above all) hypocritical stuff posted by certain people in the last 20-22 pages, and I'm kind of astonished they've gotten away with it. ... You should go back and read some more and you'll find the mocking/harassment that's even worse. It's been pretty sane mostly in the recent few pages. I don't even have a horse in this race -- I've never owned a working C64 or A8, and was mainly a Tandy and Apple user as a kid -- and some of the things that've been said have made my blood boil. ... You mean things like Apple sucks worse the C64 and Atari 800. I think words like "biased" and "hater" should be banned from this thread, because everyone who's using those words seems to be using them as a replacement for "Anything that suggests my machine is better is objectively true and a fact, but anything that suggests your machine is better is a dirty lie made up by haters and trolls." ... Because you are inept to understand that THERE ACTUALLY are BIASED people in the world and THERE ACTUALLY IS HATRED in the world. Why don't you file some complaint to have them remove those words from the dictionary. It's natural for people to be biased toward the machine they love and grew up with and have some hatred for those that oppose their beloved machine. What's worse is those people whose instead of taking it calmly, it makes their blood boil. If I ask you to tell me which is the better house of worship to attend and you give me a list of scandals of one place and all good things about another place, you are BIASED (given scandals take place in both places and good things occur in both places). People who act in that manner should not be welcome here, period. We are not on opposing teams, or members of tribes, or armies at war. We are all equals -- or, at least, civility demands that we act that way -- and we all deserve the benefit of the doubt. Anyone who can't be civil shouldn't be posting. ... We are not all equal; Atari users have access to more colors and higher CPU speed. We can digitize imagery and automatically get nice pictures where C64 users have to rely on STE to generate good graphics. Also, for God's sake, will certain people start proofreading their posts? Show everyone some respect, and go to the effort to make your posts legible and properly formatted. If you're in such a hurry (or such a rage!) that you're leaving multiple broken tags in your post, then maybe you shouldn't be posting at all until things calm down. Like what I just did or do you mean those posts where every other word is some emotion icon. I think Woodji set the precedence of how to do that properly-- he used different emotions for every word. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I've been reading this thread off and on for a while now. I understand the concerns about Commodore users "stirring the pot" and such, and I understand that the OP was looking specifically for games that are better on the Atari 8-bit. That's fine. But I really, really hope that no one -- including the moderators -- think there should be one standard of behavior for Atari users in this thread, and another for C64 users, simply because this happens to be an Atari website. Treating each other with respect and civility is an obligation, and I think that everyone who slips in little "digs" and otherwise engages in trash-talking is bringing disrepute on the site, whether they're doing so in favor of Atari or of the C64. There's been some really nasty, disrespectful, and (above all) hypocritical stuff posted by certain people in the last 20-22 pages, and I'm kind of astonished they've gotten away with it. I don't even have a horse in this race -- I've never owned a working C64 or A8, and was mainly a Tandy and Apple user as a kid -- and some of the things that've been said have made my blood boil. I think words like "biased" and "hater" should be banned from this thread, because everyone who's using those words seems to be using them as a replacement for "Anything that suggests my machine is better is objectively true and a fact, but anything that suggests your machine is better is a dirty lie made up by haters and trolls." People who act in that manner should not be welcome here, period. We are not on opposing teams, or members of tribes, or armies at war. We are all equals -- or, at least, civility demands that we act that way -- and we all deserve the benefit of the doubt. Anyone who can't be civil shouldn't be posting. Also, for God's sake, will certain people start proofreading their posts? Show everyone some respect, and go to the effort to make your posts legible and properly formatted. If you're in such a hurry (or such a rage!) that you're leaving multiple broken tags in your post, then maybe you shouldn't be posting at all until things calm down. Couldn't say it better! Thank you for your words of wisdom... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 ... The world is more beautiful if the C64 didn't exist with it color-distorted pictures... I'm really sorry you think so... And funny how one peaceful post can sprout such a biased reaction: ...You mean things like Apple sucks worse the C64 and Atari 800... ...Because you are inept to understand that THERE ACTUALLY are BIASED people in the world and THERE ACTUALLY IS HATRED in the world... ...Why don't you file some complaint to have them remove those words from the dictionary... ...We are not all equal... Man, you are one of the more biased people around here... I value highly one's right to fight for what he believes in, but... Anger? Hatred? On retro forum ? There is a saying in my country that goes something like this: "Guard yourself from others. Guard others from yourself." You can choose not to be part of that hatred. Retro forums are ment to make communities and those don't work that well with hatred in them... I hope you won't experience what real hatred is in real life and not some words on your screen that come from other side of globe... Trust me you don't want that... I guess what I'm trying to say is, if someone is a jerk you don't have to be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 ... Couldn't say it better! Thank you for your words of wisdom... I can say it better and his words are not wisdom but JUST his opinions and speculative since he has not read the thread. He thinks using words biased and hatred although proveable is bad but all the cursing and other mockery that took place earlier he has no knowledge about. I have better words for him: "In order to post to this thread, you should have atleast one: a C64 or Atari." He has neither but wants people to accept him as an authority on how Atari vs. Commodore should be conducted. Assuming some authority while not deserving any. I took at as a joke and replied jokingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 ... The world is more beautiful if the C64 didn't exist with it color-distorted pictures... I'm really sorry you think so... ... Not really just thinking. It's true. You have to think about it. And funny how one peaceful post can sprout such a biased reaction: ... You just praised someone for not allowing words like "biased" and now you use them without any evidence. Self contradictory and hypocritical. ...You mean things like Apple sucks worse the C64 and Atari 800... ...Because you are inept to understand that THERE ACTUALLY are BIASED people in the world and THERE ACTUALLY IS HATRED in the world... ...Why don't you file some complaint to have them remove those words from the dictionary... ...We are not all equal... Man, you are one of the more biased people around here... I value highly one's right to fight for what he believes in, but... Anger? Hatred? On retro forum ? ... You are speculating. That was actually humerous reply. I have no hatred for anyone nor bias, but I can tell when someone else is biased and has hatred. There is a saying in my country that goes something like this: "Guard yourself from others. Guard others from yourself." It doesn't apply. So keep the analogy to yourself. You can choose not to be part of that hatred... You haven't shown where the hatred is. You became sentimentally attached to his message although all he's doing is picking on me mostly because I mainly use the word bias and recently hatred WHERE IT APPLIED perfectly. You don't see his bias/hatred since it's his blood that's boiling. He hasn't even read the thread and he decided to pick on those words. That's called BIASED analysis. And why would HE act in such a way-- HATRED toward my approach toward truthfulness. He needs to get a life rather than take these back stabs at people he does not understand. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Ah, I forgot about those puppies I'd still like to believe the story that it's just essentially an automatic thickening of the PETSCII font to fix the artifacting issues, but I'm not 100% convinced by that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) You want a game that looked alot better on the atari? How about Koronis Rift by Lucasfilm.. http://www.mobygames.com/game/c64/koronis-rift/screenshots http://www.atarimania.com/detail_soft.php?MENU=8&VERSION_ID=2836 Maybe its a matter of preference.. But I think the atari version looks alot kewler.. Totally agree the A8 version is better, as does any C64 fan or other machine fan in their right mind. The problem is it's one of THE better games (along with Fractalus, Ballblzaer etc) that gets mentioned right at the start of any thread like this and so has had 400+ pages of love already Pete Edited October 15, 2009 by PeteD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 o.k...b.u.t..l.e.t.s..d.o..it..s.l.o.w.l.y. Let's acknowlege that A8 came BEFORE everything but PET, which licked balls to the Nth degree that you still taste it (and somehow, I submit that you LIKE IT) Let's do it in order of chronology, to avoid confusion. How fast was Atari 400/800 processor? Vic 20 processor? 64 processor? Oh shit, no improvement there!! Ah! Move on! How many colors did Atari 400 have? Vic 20? Commodore 64? Oh shit, no improvement there!!! Ah! Move on! How was A8 sound? Vic-20 sound (oh shit, regression), then Commodore 64 sound? (minus the missing voice, C64 sound very good). How many sprites did A8 have? Vic-20 (GOOF!!!), then C64? Ok, 64 did well but it was about time. Brief enough? You claim to be the expert. Sorry; I work in health care, so while I can claim to saving a few livers, I can't claim to be the end-all computer man that you are. Since you are, tell me EXACTLY what software titles that you've coded, that uphold your ballsy claim to fame? Oh, I haven't heard of any? Oh, you're just a blowhard? Heh! I figured just as much. Carry on. (P.S. if you coded anything from Donkey Kong to the Paperclip word processor, I apologize in advance - hypothetically - but in reality I expect you to bite where the sun don't shine. Obviously not quite slowly enough for you since you still didn't get the point.. But no matter.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 If I understand Metalguy (and perhaps I do not) he is a big-time Amiga guy and could probably out-Amiga all of you numbnuts put together. As for the fact that he likes the A8 also....well, you're just going to have to DEAL WITH THAT. So if you think the Amiga is so great (and you wouldn't be a true Commie-lover if you don't) don't discount this guy. Maybe **ALL** of Jay Miner's handiwork isn't so bad??? Sorry if it excludes your 64. Actually I was thinking about this last night and if you think about it Miners weak point does indeed seem to have eternally been hardware moving objects.. Whilst the display hardware itself is pretty much always all well and good, the movable objects themselves, players, sprite, whatever have usually been the side that let the machine down.. Granted on the 2600 they were the absolute saviour for it, but they evolved very little from that point in, through to the 5200/A8 there's little in the way of 2 years of progress, and by the time the Amiga arrived, there's literally bugger all evolution in them from the A8, whilst the rest of the world had moved on to silly amounts of sprites, a theme that generally stayed for quite some time.. It's still odd that the Atari machines with the monster sprite-abilities (that Miner had nothing to do with) 7800/Lynx/Jaguar failed so catastrophically in their times.. Maybe there was something to that Miner magic after all.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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