Atari v Commodore

[atarian63]

Please.. the Vic was an utter failure in the US. The main market at the time.

Yeps a real failure on the main market. With 18 million sold units... And with C128 selling another 4 million. May I mention that the entire A8 line sold just about 4 million too?

Vic 20 a mostly non starter, Not C64, what can I say, the public often is not too bright.

Sorry I don't know commonsore terminology. To me a vic means vic20.

 

Your original statement was that the VIC was an utter market failure in the US. Sorry, but you got that wrong. VIC20 was the first computer to ever sell 1 million units. It was absolutely not a technical breakthrough, but more people could afford it than Ataris. If I remember right from the C= Book "on the Edge" VIC20 was originally a few weeks own hobby project of Bob Yannes ( SID designer). He just wanted to build a computer around the already existing but unused VIC-I gfx chip for fun. But when he showed it to one of his bosses, the machine got eventually made it to be seen by Jack Tramiel who instantly ordered it to be manufactured

Sorry, you are wrong, it never got market penetration and most who bought it found they could not do anything much with it and there was little to no software and what little there was was very hard to find as nobody carried it. With Atari you could go lots of places like Sears,Service Merchandise, Burdines,Lazarus and most major retailers. Also I still hate SID sounds, really grates on my nerves.

 

Sorry, you are wrong. The first computer to ever sell 1 million units had market penetration, and is/was a market success.

Total flop and wholly unsupported at the consumer level unlike Atari. I know a few people back in the day that bought one as it was cheap. They however did nothing with it and could not find software for it. Yeah.. that a real success

 

VIC20 was the first computer to ever sell 1 million units. It was a huge market success.

Say it all you like. Still wrong. Here in the US. (main computer market) it was a flop. Success generally means that people dev for it and it's available easily to the public. It was not. Kind like the Virtual Boy, sold a bunch, no software, flop. Actually I think Virtual boy did better

Most of those machine sold here were never used. It was a novelty based on price.It was the cheapest machine around and people bought it. People wanted to be part of the emerging "computer age". Not understanding anything about machines they chose the cheapest one.

Besides the machine sucked. Give me an Atari 400/800 anyday.Heck at that time a 2600 was a much better choice. Consumers at the time were buying machine for games mostly. Commodore had no great license games and really nothing to offer even if you could find software for it.

It's only thing was that it was cheap. Made a great doorstop,closet liner, landfill filler, take your pick.

We had neighbors who had one setup on the coffee table. They showed it off. When asked what it did they turned it on and we all looked at it. I asked what they could do with it and the answer was that they had no idea. They never did.

 

You are wrong. The original claim was that it was a market huge market success. the first computer ever selling over 1 million unit is a huge market success. Market success is to be measured in sales numbers.

Keep trying. Still wrong. Again market success or failure is obvious when nearly nobody writes software for your system. As in programmers are trying to make money. As is obvious VIC20 failed.Not mainstream. Atari,Apple, Heck Tandy and TI(not a bad system) had more available and Atari and Apple had 1st tier titles as well. Vic failed. I can't even believe we are having this conversation about such a joke of a system. Were you even alive at the time?

 

Stop redefining the meaning of market success. VIC20 was a HUGE market success. whatever you say. Its not like I dont agree with most of you're seeing. But its all offtopic, changing subject. One thing you can never take away from the VIC20: first ever computer to ever sell 1 million units. and that means a huge market success.

 

edit: interesting note from spiceware. VIC20 sold 2.5 millon. more than half of ALL a8 models put together.

It's a fact. You just don't like hearing it. They sold a million pos doorstops with no 1st tier software and no availability of software. You'll just have to deal with it. Maybe Lemon64 would fit your few. I imagine there are many there with the same lame excuse. I lived during that period. Did you?

 

wow man, face it: already even 2 of the atari guys have corrected you, one of them even said it had software, pheripherals, etc etc etc. VIC20 was a huge market success. you just cant face the reality.

You still don't seem to get it, face reality son, you keep avoiding the obvious, peripherals that noboday could find or use and home grow software are far from success. Floppity flop flop/ Face it, You also avoided my question. Were you even alive back then? How would you know how things were without actually being there? Just a foolish fanboy. Why any love for that flop box is beyond me.

[atarian63]

VIC-20 really was the worst computer of the 80s (or at least a tie with the Timex Sincalir 1000.)

That's either funny or willfully ignorant.

 

I was one of the 2.5 million who bought it ($40 at Toys 'r' Us in late '83) and I felt like I'd been ripped off.

It was a poor choice in late 83, I know I wouldn't have purchased one then. It was, however, a fine choice 2 years prior.

 

There are a lot of people out there who will tell you that the handheld LCD Sonic Tennis game was a big hit becuse so many were sold. It sold as well as the Nintendo DS! The problem with that logic is, the Sonic LCD game came free with a MacDonalds happy meal, but somebody paid real money for the Nintendo DS. Within a day that Sonic LCD game is forotten between the seat cushions of mom's minivan, but th DS still gets played.

The VIC-20 was free MacDOnalds happy meal toy of the home computer era.

way to miss the point.

Actually he is right on target, in 81 it was a pos that unknowlegable people bough and never used. Little to nothing available for it.

His analogy is quite correct.

[atarian63]

The Commodore lovers must be trying to get this thread to 200 pages so they can win a free Atari...

 

Don't wish to have an Atari, other than my VCS that is. I just find it interesting that so many of those that are "upset with those biased Commodore owners" are in fact so biased themselves that they refuse to see any value in other systems as shown by their views on the VIC 20. Nowhere has anyone said the VIC said to be best technology, but to call it insignificant is misguided at best. Hell, even Linus Torvalds got his start on a Vic 20.

From a consumer point it was a total waste and caused lots of people to think even having a computer was a waste of time after being ripped of. No top tier titles, availability of software. Just awful. Significant only in that it shows people did not know what they were buy and so bought the cheapest model.

There is ATARIAGE as I recall so you might think people here think that the ATARI is the best. If those who are Commiedore supporters are unhappy that their views are no adaopted here.. well duh, It's ATARIAGE. Go play a lemon64 or somewhere else. Tough!

[atarian63]

VIC-20 really was the worst computer of the 80s (or at least a tie with the Timex Sincalir 1000.)

I was one of the 2.5 million who bought it ($40 at Toys 'r' Us in late '83) and I felt like I'd been ripped off.

The VIC-20 had a average median price of under $100 for all of 1983 - and like the Timex a bit later, this was not in the same price realm as the real home computers. For me (and I suspect many others) the VIC was a brief mistake before going out and buying a viable home computer.

 

the VIC 20 the worst computer of the 80s????

 

hum... just have a look to these demos , done on a UNEXPANDED vic 20 ...(it means 3.5k of ram) .. seing the production on Atari 800...to do the same thing (suposing it is possible) you would surely need 320k extension... but as stated previously... 320k is the standard on A800...

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6tWm3kwE7E

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocQIA3zKqXs

 

 

 

 

And don't forget to wath with the sound!!

Yawn... zzzz. Yep, it was really one of the worst and a very short life. Have you tried Lemon64, they might be more accepting there?

Edited April 14, 2009 by atarian63

[+SpiceWare]

Actually he is right on target, in 81 it was a pos that unknowlegable people bough and never used. Little to nothing available for it.

His analogy is quite correct.

you're quite like the Commodore people you so distain - blinded in your bias.

[atarian63]

VIC-20 really was the worst computer of the 80s (or at least a tie with the Timex Sincalir 1000.)

I was one of the 2.5 million who bought it ($40 at Toys 'r' Us in late '83) and I felt like I'd been ripped off.

The VIC-20 had a average median price of under $100 for all of 1983 - and like the Timex a bit later, this was not in the same price realm as the real home computers. For me (and I suspect many others) the VIC was a brief mistake before going out and buying a viable home computer.

 

the VIC 20 the worst computer of the 80s????

 

hum... just have a look to these demos , done on a UNEXPANDED vic 20 ...(it means 3.5k of ram) .. seing the production on Atari 800...to do the same thing (suposing it is possible) you would surely need 320k extension... but as stated previously... 320k is the standard on A800...

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6tWm3kwE7E

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocQIA3zKqXs

 

 

 

 

And don't forget to wath with the sound!!

 

Jesus...we could start again...

 

for games... I was esp. disappointed when playing on A8 compared to the vic-versions:

 

- Thorn Emi:Submarine (forget the crappy A8 version...)

- Choplifter (the 800 version...not the XE one)

- all Tom Griner games (he kicked ass!)

- Protector

- AE

- Shamus

 

etc...

How about an actual arcade title..That was what people in the day wanted. Not some unknown stuff that nobody ever heard of. Those titles are nice but not what people were looking for in 81-82

Edited April 14, 2009 by atarian63

[atarian63]

You think the 3-voice C64 is viable for making commercial music outside of "chip tunes" in 2009? Gimme a hit of that shit, then let's get some Sound Blaster Audigy (or whatever the hell they're up to now) cards for our PC. Or are you still consumed with the fantasy that you Commie's 3-voice FM schlock is world class? What year is it? I don't know emkay, but you bode well for his sanity if he disagrees. Maybe your philosophy will prevail, and they'll re-release "Van Halen 1984" and the synth tunes will sound as revolutionary as they did then... Better yet, they should re-dub the album with a Commie64 sounds and set the music industry on its ear, and then it'd really rock! BWAH HA HA HA HA!

 

wow, you have no idea what you are making fun of.

 

there are quite a few commercial hits which are based on the 3 voice c64 sound. one case is even on court as timbaland stole a whole SID music and put it in the background in one of his hits songs (he also stole another one and sold it as a ringtone). there's a dutch composer who used a famous c64 composer's drum sound in his hit song, and after things were straightened he had to pay royalties for using it (!). So here's your hit of that shit:

 

 

c64 music is played today by orchestras:

 

 

and c64 music fan bands:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LK-52QzEDA

 

and classic c64 game music idols does play/mix sid music on parties:

 

jeroen tel:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UccfIsAj0uA

 

reyn ouwehand the one man band:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er3aQAafH2U

 

c64 music has its OWN remix scene:

 

http://remix.kwed.org/

http://www.remix64.com/

 

c64 music has its internet radio podcast sites:

 

http://www.slayradio.org/home.php

 

SID used as a music device on its own:

 

(this one is a MUST to watch and hear, pure SID chip sound of 8 SID chips!!! SID here sounds better than in your worst nightmares )

 

 

 

 

the SID chip alone of the c64 has given birth to various fan communities, its HUGE.

The sid has some of the most grating sound I have ever heard. God Awful really! I used to make the employees turn that crap down at my retail store. Yep a deluded bunch you show here. What not use an actual programmable keyboard.

Your sales job would work better on lemon64 or other. It's not flying here.

Mostly pretty snoozy..zzzz.

[atarian63]

Actually he is right on target, in 81 it was a pos that unknowlegable people bough and never used. Little to nothing available for it.

His analogy is quite correct.

you're quite like the Commodore people you so distain - blinded in your bias.

This is ATARIAGE. Doh! Not lets all love the competitions crap age. I worked in the industry during the day, sold,repaired etc, I can tell you that yes, I really dislike Commodore for many reasons. We occasionally do some asset recovery work now and see a few Commodore items. Straight to the shredder.

[+SpiceWare]

This is ATARIAGE. Doh! Not lets all love the competitions crap age.

What's this I see here, Classic Gaming General, oh, a forum here that's not Atari specific. What's - this, more - non-Atari - forums? Seems the moderators don't agree with you.

 

It's fine that you don't like Commodore computers - but to pretend the VIC had "Little to nothing available for it" when a quick trip down to KMart yielded numerous hardware and software options is, well, pathetic. It certainly lowers the credibility of your opinions.

[FastRobPlus]

This is ATARIAGE. Doh! Not lets all love the competitions crap age.

What's this I see here, Classic Gaming General, oh, a forum here that's not Atari specific. What's - this, more - non-Atari - forums? Seems the moderators don't agree with you.

 

It's fine that you don't like Commodore computers - but to pretend the VIC had "Little to nothing available for it" when a quick trip down to KMart yielded numerous hardware and software options is, well, pathetic. It certainly lowers the credibility of your opinions.

 

Hmm... Never heard "Classic Gaming" and VIC-20 associated together before. Unless it's to talk about escape from Mt Drash.

 

The build quality of Commodores has been done to death in this thread. The conclusion: Move in with Fhron if you don't want your C64 to die (though I suspect in the night he swaps the mobo with a 64C board.)

 

I don't agree with shredding Commdores, but I do think I've developed a bias against them after participating in this thread. I used to have roughly the same opinion of the C64 and Atari systems but just liked the Atari better pesonally. Now thanks to this thread I lean toward the A8 as being the overall better system rather than just an equal.

[Wolfram]

Please.. the Vic was an utter failure in the US. The main market at the time.

Yeps a real failure on the main market. With 18 million sold units... And with C128 selling another 4 million. May I mention that the entire A8 line sold just about 4 million too?

Vic 20 a mostly non starter, Not C64, what can I say, the public often is not too bright.

Sorry I don't know commonsore terminology. To me a vic means vic20.

 

Your original statement was that the VIC was an utter market failure in the US. Sorry, but you got that wrong. VIC20 was the first computer to ever sell 1 million units. It was absolutely not a technical breakthrough, but more people could afford it than Ataris. If I remember right from the C= Book "on the Edge" VIC20 was originally a few weeks own hobby project of Bob Yannes ( SID designer). He just wanted to build a computer around the already existing but unused VIC-I gfx chip for fun. But when he showed it to one of his bosses, the machine got eventually made it to be seen by Jack Tramiel who instantly ordered it to be manufactured

Sorry, you are wrong, it never got market penetration and most who bought it found they could not do anything much with it and there was little to no software and what little there was was very hard to find as nobody carried it. With Atari you could go lots of places like Sears,Service Merchandise, Burdines,Lazarus and most major retailers. Also I still hate SID sounds, really grates on my nerves.

 

Sorry, you are wrong. The first computer to ever sell 1 million units had market penetration, and is/was a market success.

Total flop and wholly unsupported at the consumer level unlike Atari. I know a few people back in the day that bought one as it was cheap. They however did nothing with it and could not find software for it. Yeah.. that a real success

 

VIC20 was the first computer to ever sell 1 million units. It was a huge market success.

Say it all you like. Still wrong. Here in the US. (main computer market) it was a flop. Success generally means that people dev for it and it's available easily to the public. It was not. Kind like the Virtual Boy, sold a bunch, no software, flop. Actually I think Virtual boy did better

Most of those machine sold here were never used. It was a novelty based on price.It was the cheapest machine around and people bought it. People wanted to be part of the emerging "computer age". Not understanding anything about machines they chose the cheapest one.

Besides the machine sucked. Give me an Atari 400/800 anyday.Heck at that time a 2600 was a much better choice. Consumers at the time were buying machine for games mostly. Commodore had no great license games and really nothing to offer even if you could find software for it.

It's only thing was that it was cheap. Made a great doorstop,closet liner, landfill filler, take your pick.

We had neighbors who had one setup on the coffee table. They showed it off. When asked what it did they turned it on and we all looked at it. I asked what they could do with it and the answer was that they had no idea. They never did.

 

You are wrong. The original claim was that it was a market huge market success. the first computer ever selling over 1 million unit is a huge market success. Market success is to be measured in sales numbers.

Keep trying. Still wrong. Again market success or failure is obvious when nearly nobody writes software for your system. As in programmers are trying to make money. As is obvious VIC20 failed.Not mainstream. Atari,Apple, Heck Tandy and TI(not a bad system) had more available and Atari and Apple had 1st tier titles as well. Vic failed. I can't even believe we are having this conversation about such a joke of a system. Were you even alive at the time?

 

Stop redefining the meaning of market success. VIC20 was a HUGE market success. whatever you say. Its not like I dont agree with most of you're seeing. But its all offtopic, changing subject. One thing you can never take away from the VIC20: first ever computer to ever sell 1 million units. and that means a huge market success.

 

edit: interesting note from spiceware. VIC20 sold 2.5 millon. more than half of ALL a8 models put together.

It's a fact. You just don't like hearing it. They sold a million pos doorstops with no 1st tier software and no availability of software. You'll just have to deal with it. Maybe Lemon64 would fit your few. I imagine there are many there with the same lame excuse. I lived during that period. Did you?

 

wow man, face it: already even 2 of the atari guys have corrected you, one of them even said it had software, pheripherals, etc etc etc. VIC20 was a huge market success. you just cant face the reality.

You still don't seem to get it, face reality son, you keep avoiding the obvious, peripherals that noboday could find or use and home grow software are far from success. Floppity flop flop/ Face it, You also avoided my question. Were you even alive back then? How would you know how things were without actually being there? Just a foolish fanboy. Why any love for that flop box is beyond me.

 

VIC20 had both Commodore and third party peripherals, software was even made by atari for it, game carts alone counts 300. sold ALONE more than half of ALL a8 models together.

 

VIC20 was a huge market succes, first computer to ever sell a million, its sales numbers dwarfes any 8bit atari computer model's.

 

we can deeper and deeper in the numbers, and thing is it goes like this: as we go on you have to step back always from more and more of your claims. it had pheripherals, it had games, it had userbase. it had everything. You cant accept the bare facts.

 

You also avoided my question. Were you even alive back then? How would you know how things were without actually being there? Just a foolish fanboy. Why any love for that flop box is beyond me.

 

wow how stupid can this get. were you alive in the 1st world war? how do you know what happened then? stop trolling sir. play it fair. accept the facts.

[Barnacle boy]

I can't even believe we are having this conversation about such a joke of a system. Were you even alive at the time?

Because your own experiences must surely be universal? You are the archetypal everyman?

 

This is ATARIAGE. Doh! Not lets all love the competitions crap age. I worked in the industry during the day, sold,repaired etc, I can tell you that yes, I really dislike Commodore for many reasons. We occasionally do some asset recovery work now and see a few Commodore items. Straight to the shredder.

The funny thing is that you've already made a big thing about you being old(about 46, right?), and yet you behave like this.

 

Whenever Atari coders make something good or better than what was available on the c=64 the statement is ... you can't compare what people code today vs what they coded then.... I submit you can since it is still the same hardware. It is simply being used more to it's potential. If a person can not handle that then it is their character flaw or failing.

So I suppose if I show comparisons between games like Nebulus or Blinky's Scary School or Green Beret or Rampage etc etc, I won't hear a peep out of you. You won't pipe up trying explain the context in which these games were made (particularly as these are games made in the same period, and under commercial constraints on both sides). Yep, you'd be as quiet as a mouse, I'm sure.

 

 

I recently dug out my old commodore equipment to view some of the cited posting on real equipment on both machines. Guess which machines are back in boxes? In fact I kinda am glad for one thing. My son and daughter BOTH are now using the old 8-bit Atari machines.

I guess the apples don't fall too far from the tree. Maybe they sensed that you would kick them out of home if they showed any preference for the c64.

[Wolfram]

How about an actual arcade title..That was what people in the day wanted. Not some unknown stuff that nobody ever heard of. Those titles are nice but not what people were looking for in 81-82

 

how about accepting facts...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Commodore_VIC-20_games

 

there are many arcade games amongst the hundreds.

[Bryan]

This is ATARIAGE. Doh! Not lets all love the competitions crap age.

What's this I see here, Classic Gaming General, oh, a forum here that's not Atari specific. What's - this, more - non-Atari - forums? Seems the moderators don't agree with you.

 

It's fine that you don't like Commodore computers - but to pretend the VIC had "Little to nothing available for it" when a quick trip down to KMart yielded numerous hardware and software options is, well, pathetic. It certainly lowers the credibility of your opinions.

 

Hey Darrell, how did you get sucked into this thread?

 

I remember asking my dad for a VIC-20 after I saw someone playing games on one. He did some additional research and got me an Atari 800 (I was bummed for maybe 30 seconds). Anyway, the VIC-20 was about as good as anyone could do for $300 in 1980.

 

-Bry

[Barnacle boy]

-snip- Stuff about c64 expandability/modern uses -/snip-

So now a C64 can be used as a web server, 32-bit computer, professional synth, and composer's tool - all in 2009. Who'd have known there was no need to ever manufacture anything newer? What on Earth were they thinking when the ceased production? Why did they even contrive the C128 (or Amiga)? And all this time, I thought it was just being compared to A8. What I want to know, is how I can get a 427 side-oiler or maybe Hemi in there. Or maybe there's a Prius mod so it's eco-friendly.

I think your sarcasm is misplaced. You should bear in mind that oky2000 was addressing the suggestion that the c64 doesn't have much to offer in terms of expandability.

 

As for the c64 webserver, it might not be particularly useful, but it's kind of cute. Check it out here. (Sometimes the site gets slashdotted or swamped by Digg traffic, so the owner added a non-c64 hosted gateway).

[frogstar_robot]

I really dislike Commodore for many reasons. We occasionally do some asset recovery work now and see a few Commodore items. Straight to the shredder.

 

Ya know, speaking as someone who grew up loving and still loves things Atari I find that uncool .

 

Many of us here may dislike old Commodore gear or at least love it less than our Atari gear but it isn't wrong for others to love it as much we like our stuff. Aside from imperfect FPGA reproductions and emulation, all of the computers we grew up with are becoming increasingly rare birds. Though I don't have enough space to indulge myself in many such things; I still smile to come across a TI, a C-64, or yes even a Vic-20 in a thrift and hope they find good homes.

 

It wouldn't kill you to just give the stuff to some Commodore guy though much of it seems to command perfectly unreasonable prices on E-Bay and you could get some jollies overcharging there if the thought of putting a smile on a Commodore fan is too much.

Edited April 15, 2009 by frogstar_robot

[FastRobPlus]

I really dislike Commodore for many reasons. We occasionally do some asset recovery work now and see a few Commodore items. Straight to the shredder.

 

Ya know, speaking as someone who grew up loving and still loves things Atari I find that uncool .

 

Many of us here may dislike old Commodore gear or at least love it less than our Atari gear but it isn't wrong for others to love it as much we like our stuff. Aside from imperfect FPGA reproductions and emulation, all of the computers we grew up with are becoming increasingly rare birds. Though I don't have enough space to indulge myself in many such things; I still smile to come across a TI, a C-64, or yes even a Vic-20 in a thrift and hope they find good homes.

 

It wouldn't kill you to just give the stuff to some Commodore guy though much of it seems to command perfectly unreasonable prices on E-Bay and you could get some jollies overcharging there if the thought of putting a smile on a Commodore fan is too much.

 

I sort of agree with you here but looking at some of the comments I'm not sure if disposal isn't the best thing. I think some folks have been licking the cadmium and lead from the ports on the back for some time now.

Edited April 15, 2009 by FastRobPlus

[+wood_jl]

Ok, I'll admit, I've been razzing you Commodore guys. It's just entertainment, as are 8-bit computers.

 

I think it's cool you're still interested in your machines, just as I am impressed with the vociferous nature of Atari 800/XL/XE fans, of which I am definitely one. I can appreciate 8-bit enthusiasm, regardless of brand (welll, I like the C64 more than the Apple).

 

I think the SID sound is excellent, and I don't need to be convinced that it's a serious force in music in the year 2009 to think so. It's in an 8-bit microcomputer from 1982, and a cheap one at that. Actually, my hat is off to it for being cheap. We're not all wealthy, so cheap is good! But seriously, I think it is ridiculous to pretend that it's 3-voice FM synthesis hasn't been surpassed after TWENTY SEVEN YEARS. Yes, it's cool if *some* people still choose to use it. That is testiment as to its virtue. So-called "chip tunes" indeed have a novelty following, and the SID is likely amongst the best of the genre. However - we're adults here - and I think we're capable of framing the 8-bit sound experience where it belongs today - a novelty. A very cool novelty that I (and many others) can appreciate, but indeed a novelty. It is not modern sound hardware and the contemporary music industry does not hinge upon the beloved SID chip. If it did, there'd be B-artists shunning modern production equipment for a POKEY chip. HA HA HA! Even the rudimentary (by today's standards) original Sound Blaster had 11 voices and was quite revolutionary for 1989 (or whenever) standards. So to maintain a charade that the SID chip is superior to - even that - is not necesary to acknowledge that it is indeed quite good considering its era and competition at the time. The mere suggestion that it continues to be a driving force in modern music is not only laughably ridiculous, but unnecessary to establish its merit. I still like it. Lots of people do, I imagine.

 

That having been said on the sound issue, I think it both ridiculous and unnecessary to purport the C64 as a web server, 32-bit computer, or 512Mb of RAM container - in order to extol its virtues. What I like about the C64 is that it's the most "Atari-like" of the alternatives in 8-bit computers. Perhaps an insult to some, perhaps praise to others, but it's all up to history, personal choice, and preferences. It's meant as a compliment. I have no doubt I'd have one if I hadn't already had an Atari 400 and then 800 when it came out.

 

I actually owned one in the mid-80s for a short time. I was at a garage sale and they had a C64, 1541, and 1701 (or 1702?) monitor. I just wanted the monitor for my Atari 800, but they wouldn't part it out. I bought the whole thing for $150. It came with a 1200 baud modem that plugged in the back. It was my first 1200 baud modem, and I thought that was extremely cool, as the A8 had no cheap little modem like that. It also included an Epyx Fast Load cartridge. I seem to recall someone had installed a little red button on the Fast Load cartridge, but I can't remember what it was for, and my memory is foggy. It came with almost no software. I got online with it at 1200, which was very cool. I had no money to buy software; I was working part time at McDonald's and couldn't even buy all the Atari crap I wanted. I was in high school at the time. Everyone was trading "warez." When I approached guys who had a C64 in school, they were stingy with their "warez" and wanted "a game for a game" in order to give me "warez." Somebody expressed interest, and I sold it for nearly what I paid, but kept the monitor (wish I still had it). Overall, I'd rate it as "similar" to the A8, and I think most people in the current era would. Wish I'd have had some badass games, though.

 

I should think - in the modern era - what matters more than debating issues of alleged machine superiority (vs. Atari8) is convenience of use. What **really** got me back "into" Atari 8-bit computers again is the SIO2PC device. I don't have - and have no intentions of fooling with - unreliable antique floppy drives. Since I haven't had a computer with even an RS-232 serial port for several years, the USB version of SIO2PC (from Atarimax) got me off the emulators and back to a real machine. I couldn't be happier!!!!

 

I think the debate should focus on such devices that make it convenient to use 8-bit machines. The Atarimax website links to a site for "64HDD" which is, as I understand, a similar concept. Unfortunately, this appears to be a parallel port device, and my newer PCs (all laptops nowdays) don't have one. Even my 9-year old model (now exclusively an Atari peripheral) doesn't have a serial port! I sometimes think about getting a C64 to play "Hyper Sports" as I remember it was excellent and C64 exclusive. I don't want any peripherals, just the computer. So can that be accomplished today? If not, then I'd say the Atari has a real practical advantage.

 

Is the 64HDD also a floppy emulator? If you can't run "boot disc" images off your PC's hard drive then you'd be missing out a whole lot. Easily done on A8.

 

Is software readily available on the web for C64? Every game I've ever heard of (and then some) are on the web for A8.

 

Can you make your own multi-game cartridge for the C64? The Atarimax 8-Megabit carts are the coolest thing I've ever seen on the A8. You program them right in the Atari itself.

 

These are more practical considerations - rather than arguing over specs - as to owning these machines in the modern era. Also, curious as to why C64 guys don't seem to embrace the C128.

[+SpiceWare]

Hey Darrell, how did you get sucked into this thread?

Just tried to correct a few mistakes certain AtariAge members keep repeated about the VIC. Their rabid hatred of all things Commodore means it's not possible to discuss things with them, so I've decided they're not worth anymore of my time.

 

I remember asking my dad for a VIC-20 after I saw someone playing games on one. He did some additional research and got me an Atari 800 (I was bummed for maybe 30 seconds). Anyway, the VIC-20 was about as good as anyone could do for $300 in 1980.

Yeah, the 800 would have been nice, but was well out of my price range. As it was, I was very surprised my folks were able to go halves on the VIC20 and Datasette. I spent a lot of time coding on it, as well as gaming, and it ran a BBS for a number of years before I retired it after I rewrote my BBS software for the 64. It was surprising how many people would not believe that the VIC could run a BBS.

[atarian63]

This is ATARIAGE. Doh! Not lets all love the competitions crap age.

What's this I see here, Classic Gaming General, oh, a forum here that's not Atari specific. What's - this, more - non-Atari - forums? Seems the moderators don't agree with you.

 

It's fine that you don't like Commodore computers - but to pretend the VIC had "Little to nothing available for it" when a quick trip down to KMart yielded numerous hardware and software options is, well, pathetic. It certainly lowers the credibility of your opinions.

Just your minority opinion. Yeah, tons of great title like "gortek and the Microchips" What a pac man beater!!

[Bryan]

Just tried to correct a few mistakes certain AtariAge members keep repeated about the VIC. Their rabid hatred of all things Commodore means it's not possible to discuss things with them, so I've decided they're not worth anymore of my time.

Yeah, and ya know it's all obsolete junk today- not something to get too excited about. Back in the day I was heavily invested in my particular platform, but today I'm able to look at them objectively. Some platforms genuinely sucked, but I wouldn't put Atari or Commodore in that category.

 

Yeah, the 800 would have been nice, but was well out of my price range. As it was, I was very surprised my folks were able to go halves on the VIC20 and Datasette. I spent a lot of time coding on it, as well as gaming, and it ran a BBS for a number of years before I retired it after I rewrote my BBS software for the 64. It was surprising how many people would not believe that the VIC could run a BBS.

And the important thing was you got an early start with computers as did I. It's hard to overestimate the impact that had on my life.

 

-Bry

[atarian63]

I really dislike Commodore for many reasons. We occasionally do some asset recovery work now and see a few Commodore items. Straight to the shredder.

 

Ya know, speaking as someone who grew up loving and still loves things Atari I find that uncool .

 

Many of us here may dislike old Commodore gear or at least love it less than our Atari gear but it isn't wrong for others to love it as much we like our stuff. Aside from imperfect FPGA reproductions and emulation, all of the computers we grew up with are becoming increasingly rare birds. Though I don't have enough space to indulge myself in many such things; I still smile to come across a TI, a C-64, or yes even a Vic-20 in a thrift and hope they find good homes.

 

It wouldn't kill you to just give the stuff to some Commodore guy though much of it seems to command perfectly unreasonable prices on E-Bay and you could get some jollies overcharging there if the thought of putting a smile on a Commodore fan is too much.

I actually have given away a few commodore items to members here. There is a thrill in killing them off though. They are so common they mostly have no worthwhile resale value. Maybe a little for a 1571 drive but not really worth the trouble. I will say that the 1702 monitor is one commodore item I like though probably not made by them. The tube quality is very nice for a small display and they seem to mostly work after all these years.

There. One nice commodore comment

[atarian63]

How about an actual arcade title..That was what people in the day wanted. Not some unknown stuff that nobody ever heard of. Those titles are nice but not what people were looking for in 81-82

 

how about accepting facts...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Commodore_VIC-20_games

 

there are many arcade games amongst the hundreds.

Available nearly no place during the time. That is a fact. How old are you? or is wiki your substitute for experience.I also notice no sales numbers. Probably as there arent many. Also many of those title seem to have been done much later. Long after the systems 2 year lifespan.

[atarian63]

I can't even believe we are having this conversation about such a joke of a system. Were you even alive at the time?

Because your own experiences must surely be universal? You are the archetypal everyman?

 

This is ATARIAGE. Doh! Not lets all love the competitions crap age. I worked in the industry during the day, sold,repaired etc, I can tell you that yes, I really dislike Commodore for many reasons. We occasionally do some asset recovery work now and see a few Commodore items. Straight to the shredder.

The funny thing is that you've already made a big thing about you being old(about 46, right?), and yet you behave like this.

 

Whenever Atari coders make something good or better than what was available on the c=64 the statement is ... you can't compare what people code today vs what they coded then.... I submit you can since it is still the same hardware. It is simply being used more to it's potential. If a person can not handle that then it is their character flaw or failing.

So I suppose if I show comparisons between games like Nebulus or Blinky's Scary School or Green Beret or Rampage etc etc, I won't hear a peep out of you. You won't pipe up trying explain the context in which these games were made (particularly as these are games made in the same period, and under commercial constraints on both sides). Yep, you'd be as quiet as a mouse, I'm sure.

 

 

I recently dug out my old commodore equipment to view some of the cited posting on real equipment on both machines. Guess which machines are back in boxes? In fact I kinda am glad for one thing. My son and daughter BOTH are now using the old 8-bit Atari machines.

I guess the apples don't fall too far from the tree. Maybe they sensed that you would kick them out of home if they showed any preference for the c64.

Wow insults from a Noob. Your opinion and comments seem to show that you were not there at the time either. Also your examples are of titles released long after the death of the system. Doesn't help your case. Were you and Atari and Commodore dealer? I was. So I would say I probably have a lot more insight that most.

[+SpiceWare]

It also included an Epyx Fast Load cartridge. I seem to recall someone had installed a little red button on the Fast Load cartridge, but I can't remember what it was for, and my memory is foggy.

Most likely a reset button so you wouldn't have to power cycle the machine.

 

What **really** got me back "into" Atari 8-bit computers again is the SIO2PC device.

I'm not that up on what's been done lately for the Commodore. I have an MMC64 in my C=128. It lets me load software off an SD card, but it only works in 64 mode. This is similar but will work with any Commodore with the serial connection.

 

Is software readily available on the web for C64?

Yeah, though it's been a while since I've downloaded any. Typically if you google on gamename D64 you'll find it. D64 is the extension used for 1541 disk images. Can also use T64 which means tape image.

 

Can you make your own multi-game cartridge for the C64?

Don't know, but I am on the waiting list for a Vic Mega Cart

 

Also, curious as to why C64 guys don't seem to embrace the C128.

There wasn't that much software written specifically for the 128 - one of the downfalls of it being 99.9% compatible with the 64. Here's an

. I also wrote a Space Invaders clone back in the day for the 80 column display