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Atari v Commodore


stevelanc

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Yeah, it's all your fault GroovyBee!! =-)

 

My moneys on the 7800 wiping the completely floor with both the C64 and A8 ;)

 

@TMR: Mia culpa! :lol:

 

@andym00: You know it! Well... Er... If somebody helps me with the graphics.

 

That's ok, the "completely floor" is only one of them :P

 

 

Pete

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I guess it just needs the A8 crowd to surface since they really have gone quiet now, and I'm wondering if we've in fact jumped the gun a bit here, and I'm not entirely sure who's up for this anymore..

 

Well so far there's you, Heaven, Pete, me and maybe GroovyBee by the look of things...? That's not a bad start actually, but we should probably keep generally pontificating for a couple of days to see who else wants to step up, after all some of us are in different time zones.

 

(And yeah, the 7800 stands a good chance of winning hands down... but that's not the initial point of the exercise, it'll still give us a nice bit of C64/A8 comparison. =-)

 

Don't forget Ste, he's up for some gfx I think as long as it doesn't involve redrawing a whole games worth.

 

 

Pete

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One thing that hasn't been mentioned is judging. How are the different games to be judged and WHO will do the judging?

I think there needs to be a 1-10 scale for several different areas.

Playability

Sound effects

Music

Graphics

Animation

 

Some less tangible things that should be considered as a tie breaker. (yes, you should track this)

Time to develop

Number of developers that worked on the project

load time

RAM used

 

Then you need a set of criteria that the games have to meet to even qualify.

Requirements if you will.

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my rules would be stock machines vs stock machines...

 

Absolutely..

 

 

load "*",8,1 on commie.

 

So... Disk drives allowed.. 2nd processor then icon_wink.gif

 

stock machine... not machines... icon_wink.gif

 

C64 is allowed to use a floppy cpu? Then the A8 is allowed to use the "common" coprozessor ;)

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One thing that hasn't been mentioned is judging. How are the different games to be judged and WHO will do the judging?

 

[Other relevant stuff snipped for brevity, nothing more.]

 

[Nods] Yeah, all this needs thrashing out... again, we need a more dedicated home for this or it's going to generate even more traffic to upset people with!

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my rules would be stock machines vs stock machines...

 

Absolutely..

 

 

load "*",8,1 on commie.

 

So... Disk drives allowed.. 2nd processor then icon_wink.gif

 

stock machine... not machines... icon_wink.gif

 

C64 is allowed to use a floppy cpu? Then the A8 is allowed to use the "common" coprozessor ;)

 

Didn't you already claim the ANTIC was a co-processor?

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I'd say judges should be people who have shown an interest and seem to be fairly unbiased (considering it's an Atari forum) such as MetalGuy and Bryan.

 

If this stays on AA then sure, how about them, a couple of others like Jetboot Jack perhaps and the participants? If we go abroad, that opens up the judging to whoever'll hold still long enough!

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I'd say judges should be people who have shown an interest and seem to be fairly unbiased (considering it's an Atari forum) such as MetalGuy and Bryan.

 

 

Pete

Then I hereby cast my vote for the Atari version! (oh wait, you said unbiased!). :D

 

I think this is foolishness anyways. Unless the game plays to the Atari's strengths, it will probably look better on the 64.

Edited by Bryan
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but assets like gfx are delivered at first stage?

 

or how should we all start without the bunnies?

 

Depends what we need and the game chosen, that decision needs to be made after we work out what to do i think... i promise not to use the head start! =-)

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I think this is foolishness anyways. Unless the game plays to the Atari's strengths, it will probably look better on the 64.

 

Well yeah, it's foolish... but so is this entire thread, this at least will keep the coders happy and might result in some nice games. If it goes wrong we don't get anywhere, if it goes right it's win/win really.

 

Then after the first go, everybody has to change sides and write something for a machine they didn't compete with previously! (Just kidding... although i'd quite like that m'self.)

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I'd say judges should be people who have shown an interest and seem to be fairly unbiased (considering it's an Atari forum) such as MetalGuy and Bryan.

 

 

Pete

Then I hereby cast my vote for the Atari version! (oh wait, you said unbiased!). :D

 

shh, how does $50 sound? ;)

 

Just noticed your edit too. Agreed that it should play to strengths but on both sides. It is VERY difficult to come up with a game that's going to need some give and take on both machines to make any kind of sense, like is there more CPU grunt needed and if so is that outweighed by the number of objects on the screen BUT the whole point of this starting in the first place is the shouty folk who supposedly know everything about both machines continuing to say the A8 is superior no matter dates of manufacture etc so in some ways unless you pick something specifically for the A8, it's possibly kind of screwed.

 

 

 

Pete

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shh, how does $50 sound? ;)

sounds good. I would have settled for $20.

Just noticed your edit too. Agreed that it should play to strengths but on both sides. It is VERY difficult to come up with a game that's going to need some give and take on both machines to make any kind of sense, like is there more CPU grunt needed and if so is that outweighed by the number of objects on the screen BUT the whole point of this starting in the first place is the shouty folk who supposedly know everything about both machines continuing to say the A8 is superior no matter dates of manufacture etc so in some ways unless you pick something specifically for the A8, it's possibly kind of screwed.

I've always wanted to see how well a mode 7 floor could be done on the A8. I'd settle for 10-15 fps if it worked. I figure the 160x96 mode is best for that kind of thing (might come out well in GITA modes too).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T5u9nD_I0I

Edited by Bryan
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If you take a contest like this off of AA then you could open it up to all 8 bits.

Sort of like the mini-game competition but everyone writing the same game for their machine.

But that might be a bit much.

 

Well, that could be somewhere to aim for... i'd rather keep it simple to start with, make sure the whole idea holds water first.

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Just noticed your edit too. Agreed that it should play to strengths but on both sides. It is VERY difficult to come up with a game that's going to need some give and take on both machines to make any kind of sense, like is there more CPU grunt needed and if so is that outweighed by the number of objects on the screen BUT the whole point of this starting in the first place is the shouty folk who supposedly know everything about both machines continuing to say the A8 is superior no matter dates of manufacture etc so in some ways unless you pick something specifically for the A8, it's possibly kind of screwed.

What game is chosen will have as much to do with the winner as anything.

Advocates of one machine or the other will fight to pick a game that gives their machine an advantage.

Finding something that requires a mix of speed, colors, etc... without making the contest so difficult it will never happen will be a challenge.

I doubt either machine can win hands down for all games.

It almost makes more sense to make it an ongoing contest where a game is chosen once a year and the winner gets bragging rights for the year.

But that's just my opinion.

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Man, I wish I had the time and skill to participate in this!!

 

(I'm pulling for the 7800 too actually)

 

Will you participants have a place to "compete" in a way that can be seen? If it were me, and I realize it's not, I would ask Al for a subforum. Lock it down to those people actually getting after it, and fire off the threads for the teams to discuss, taunt, share assets, etc... That way, it can be viewed, other participants could join in, having seen what's going on, and...

 

Should this actually happen, there is considerable value in the development log / chatter / process as it runs the course. For me personally, it would be very illuminating to see work flows. There is the technical portion, understanding hardware, options, then there is building assets, structures and the engine. Watching the latter occur would be something I know I would benefit from. So, if nobody minds doing a little show and tell, there are those who would love to watch 'n learn a few things! (namely me, who is working at that level on Prop right now --so it's of immediate interest --I'm sure there are others)

 

Those things learned would tee up an interesting follow on compo, perhaps with the same title. I would love to put a 32K propeller in that mix, perhaps with SD card / eeprom asset / level file size limit, after having seen an idea of how to really put the whole show together.

 

Nobody likes kibitzing, so maybe Al would open view to those who can behave and either just watch, or participate, so it's an equitable experience for everybody. (I know being able to watch 'n learn is totally worth, not hosing it up. Not sure where others are on that, but I can hold that line.)

 

Might I suggest two layers of judging? There is overall presentation and game play comparison between all platforms. The title shown will influence a lot of that, so then...

 

Overall utilization of the machine as a second category?

 

That way, serious efforts can be recognized and rewarded too. If any of this goes down, it's enough work to warrant really thinking over the return.

 

On that note, the follow on discussion over how utilized the machine was will be as interesting as seen it done would be.

 

The combined result would be one hell of a write up for somebody too. Interview the teams and spark some serious retro lovin.

 

Just ideas folks. Take them or leave them.

Edited by potatohead
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The idea of a recurring event is a good one, and gives opportunity for others and their machines to jump in. Retro is pretty big right now. Capturing any and all takers with an event would be pretty good for communities all around.

 

My personal experience with the mini-game compo was a good one. Lots of fun. This could be the same, framed up right, so nobody gets hammered, losing face, etc...

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I've always wanted to see how well a mode 7 floor could be done on the A8. I'd settle for 10-15 fps if it worked. I figure the 160x96 mode is best for that kind of thing (might come out well in GITA modes too).

 

 

 

Yeah. For the main screen double scanline resolution and for the some enhancement, multiplexed PM graphics.

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I've always wanted to see how well a mode 7 floor could be done on the A8. I'd settle for 10-15 fps if it worked. I figure the 160x96 mode is best for that kind of thing (might come out well in GITA modes too).

 

 

 

I just started typing about this, and carried on and on typing, then read it back and realised it was probably really boring to read so I deleted it and will now post...

 

No way. :)

 

It's far too complex a thing even for something seemingly simple. You've got to calculate each pixel on the screen, mask it and OR it with the next one (at least 4* for each byte). I think the draw itself without the calculation would murder the CPU too badly, add the calculation and you've got an emkay interactive slideshow. Just imagine the fastest full 3D filled vector game you've seen on A8 or C64, then imagine that when they fill those vectors they're basically doing a flood fill. Now change that flood fill to a texture mapper which calculates the map on a per pixel basis and that's kind of similar to the CPU usage needed for a mode7 in one of the A8s screen modes.

 

 

 

Pete

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