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#11126 PeteD OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:51 PM

Jason, hurry up with yer forum! hehe All this is getting terribly off topic reaaaly. Talking about mode7 and stuff, we need somewhere else to go and waffle about it :)


Pete

#11127 PeteD OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:59 PM

Dang, I really don't have time to code this up this week.. :(


That's the problem with places like this thread or talking to other coders, constantly new things for us to be interested in doing and never enough time for them all. I'd love to have more of a play with code for it as well but every time I think about it I think of different possibilities and I've already got an artist waiting to murder me for not working fast enough coding things to drop his graphics into :(



Pete

Edited by PeteD, Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:00 PM.


#11128 Bryan OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:04 PM

Why can't we get Bill Gates interested in all this retro-coding? He could buy us an island to go work on!

#11129 PeteD OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:07 PM

ROFL

That does it, I'm applying to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation for a grant to help those with terminal retro-geekitis.


Pete

#11130 Rockford OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:12 PM

48 - INGRID'S BACK !

1.png
C64
2.gif
C64

The C64 version has colourful graphics. On ATARI there is only the text. We have seen something like this before. C64 is better again. :cool:

3.png
ATARI
4.png
ATARI

#11131 Bryan OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:12 PM

ROFL

That does it, I'm applying to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation for a grant to help those with terminal retro-geekitis.


Pete

While you're doing that, I'll go buy a lotto ticket. :)

I think I have another way to generate a floor that greatly reduces the amount of math... Argh!!!

#11132 TMR OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:18 PM

Jason, hurry up with yer forum! hehe All this is getting terribly off topic reaaaly. Talking about mode7 and stuff, we need somewhere else to go and waffle about it :)


Oy, you already know i'm ill! (Okay, it'll be a close to unpatched phpBB3 but give me some time...)

#11133 PeteD OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:29 PM


Jason, hurry up with yer forum! hehe All this is getting terribly off topic reaaaly. Talking about mode7 and stuff, we need somewhere else to go and waffle about it :)


Oy, you already know i'm ill! (Okay, it'll be a close to unpatched phpBB3 but give me some time...)


Ill? tsk, I hear it's girly sniffles ;)


Pete

#11134 wood_jl OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:20 PM

I'd like to see a Commodore 64 version of Star Raiders. Maybe one of you super-coders can do it, and jazz it up to surpass the A8 original with more color, etc. Could the C64 do a "color" version of Star Raiders?

#11135 TMR OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:23 PM



Jason, hurry up with yer forum! hehe All this is getting terribly off topic reaaaly. Talking about mode7 and stuff, we need somewhere else to go and waffle about it :)


Oy, you already know i'm ill! (Okay, it'll be a close to unpatched phpBB3 but give me some time...)


Ill? tsk, I hear it's girly sniffles ;)


Yeah yeah, whatever... [Sniffle] Okay, forum's up so go talk at each other for a bit whilst i recover or something! (i bloody know i'm going to regret this entire idea, but hey... if i didn't do everything i regretted i'd not have the mickey taken out of me when i'm ill!)

Edited by TMR, Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:24 PM.


#11136 andym00 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:43 PM

Yeah yeah, whatever... [Sniffle] Okay, forum's up so go talk at each other for a bit whilst i recover or something! (i bloody know i'm going to regret this entire idea, but hey... if i didn't do everything i regretted i'd not have the mickey taken out of me when i'm ill!)


Cool, let gentlemanly conduct begin :)

#11137 STE'86 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:14 PM

I'd like to see a Commodore 64 version of Star Raiders. Maybe one of you super-coders can do it, and jazz it up to surpass the A8 original with more color, etc. Could the C64 do a "color" version of Star Raiders?


i have to say that this one appeals to me :)

yes you could do Star Raiders in colour. the only potential stumbling block i can see is the use of "particle" graphics for explosions, which drags down the 1.8mhz atari chip so is certain to have a similar impact on the c64. however i would have thought that the use of c64 sprites to generate the rest of the graphics would compensate somewhat.

however the 64 already has a Star raiders clone called Sentinel
My link

it doesnt however have decent version of Star Raiders 2/last starfighter. Activision naused that one up completely.

anyway if Star Raiders floats your boat have a look at PSI 5 Trading co
My link

Steve

#11138 frogstar_robot OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:32 PM

yes you could do Star Raiders in colour. the only potential stumbling block i can see is the use of "particle" graphics for explosions, which drags down the 1.8mhz atari chip so is certain to have a similar impact on the c64. however i would have thought that the use of c64 sprites to generate the rest of the graphics would compensate somewhat.


There was a hack floating around this forum a year or two ago that cut the number of particles down to avoid the slowdown. I remember reading the posts and playing with the bin but I had no luck searching out. Perhaps someone with a better memory....

Star Raiders is also interesting in that it was the killer app for the 400/800 launch. That game running on store displays sold some A8s. It is also notable for packing a fair amount of depth into an 8K cart.

#11139 Goochman OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:21 PM

I'd like to see a Commodore 64 version of Star Raiders. Maybe one of you super-coders can do it, and jazz it up to surpass the A8 original with more color, etc. Could the C64 do a "color" version of Star Raiders?


It would have to fit in 8k - the 8bit can do a color version of Star Raiders!

#11140 popmilo OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:35 AM

...I think I have another way to generate a floor that greatly reduces the amount of math... Argh!!!

Early morning is good for getting new ideas :)
What about this:
Yoomp routine is simple precalculated kinda chunky to combined bits into bytes routine. LDA ORA ORA ORA STA in core. With indexes it can draw stuff from texture moved in one axis without additional cost. So, what if you have much more movement in one direction than rotations ? If you limit rotation steps to only 1 in N movements of "forward" movement, you can prepare texture buffer in that direction, every move forward you have to add only one line from floormap to texture, and while doing those N moves you build another texture buffer in different angle ? And after N steps you change buffer and continue in that direction.
Rendering routine takes alot of memory, but some ratio could be found... Yoomp plots over 6000 pixels in 2 frames (25fps), but uses mirror effect so rendering routine is only half of that size... and that half is around 12k :(

15 bytes are needed for 4 pixels, so something like quarter of narrow mode screen , 128x24=3072 pixels, would take 11.5 Kb. Double that and you get 23k for rendering code only... With all extra drawing second buffer you could maybe get away with maybe 3 or 4 frames total... That would be 16 or 12 fps...

Don't know if that is of any use, but I had to write it down :)

p.s. You could move this conversation into programming sub forum ....

#11141 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:40 AM


Yeah, it needs some faster way of drawing the closer repeated areas.

You're right about starting at the back, that's how it's usually done, each scanline gets a new calculation for that lines X and Y increments in the "map". Using tiles of course would mean also having the tile "number" held in a map somewhere but I was talking more simple Ballblazer on/off type thing and have it 2 colour checkerboard. You're going to really need at least an 8:8 calculation for everything else it's going to be a mess I should think. Each pixel (for a fully mapping one) then needs to add that to the source pointer, do a read, at least a write, a wrap check when the offset is added, etc. It really is kind of a nightmare cpu wise.

I think the simplest way is do a 3d grid rotation, doesn't need too many points so not "that" many matrix muls (in fact due to it being a grid there are probably lots of cheats), and then a quad fill routine (or a linedraw and Y bucket). Certainly faster than reading source data but means you're stuck back with the checkerboard again.


Yep. You have to see what operations can be eliminated by look-ups or pre-mangled data and what inaccuracies you can accept for speed. I had also thought of a tile-plotter that could draw at various rotations and sizes and filling in the floor that way. Tiles further away would not need the accuracy of close up tiles.

Dang, I really don't have time to code this up this week.. Posted Image


Have you ever taken a closer look at Rescue on Fractalus? Behind the scene?
Or just watch the videos on youtube again.

C64 is already doing all that stuff...
-No VBI fixed graphics
-Drawing closer ranges more often than distant ones.... and so on....

.... while the Atari is simply drawing frame per frame , beeing allmost 3x as fast ?

What will we see on the A8 after using all those speedup tricks?

I guess, Space Harrier is even using non of them. The only "speedup trick" is the lookup table for the "sprite faces"... but it draws every frame fully, being that fast already.

#11142 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:45 AM

I played around with the ideas of mode7 years ago when having my snes and doing all the chunky stuff on A8...

of course you can precalculate the texture mapper and you can make it little bit more flexible... but to have 50 fps it is impossible to have a flexible texture mapper where the angle is flexible... as LDA ORA STA is the fastest possible way... and remember that in mode7 we are not using a 80x60 display but a more flexible one with scanline resolution so first of all we would need to calculate how much plotted pixels we are talking about?

if we have this number we can caculate how much ram would the precalculated rendering routine would need. than we see how much cycles are left to implement a more flexible one than the mentioned fixed one. and we know how long these routine would be and then we can think about reusing the mapper for more than 1 angle for the turns...

and... if we are talking about using others than mode9/10 or 11... remember that code size doubles plus ram usage for the textures is 4x... (LDA ORA ORA ORA STA).

just my 2 cents.

#11143 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:46 AM



Yeah, it needs some faster way of drawing the closer repeated areas.

You're right about starting at the back, that's how it's usually done, each scanline gets a new calculation for that lines X and Y increments in the "map". Using tiles of course would mean also having the tile "number" held in a map somewhere but I was talking more simple Ballblazer on/off type thing and have it 2 colour checkerboard. You're going to really need at least an 8:8 calculation for everything else it's going to be a mess I should think. Each pixel (for a fully mapping one) then needs to add that to the source pointer, do a read, at least a write, a wrap check when the offset is added, etc. It really is kind of a nightmare cpu wise.

I think the simplest way is do a 3d grid rotation, doesn't need too many points so not "that" many matrix muls (in fact due to it being a grid there are probably lots of cheats), and then a quad fill routine (or a linedraw and Y bucket). Certainly faster than reading source data but means you're stuck back with the checkerboard again.


Yep. You have to see what operations can be eliminated by look-ups or pre-mangled data and what inaccuracies you can accept for speed. I had also thought of a tile-plotter that could draw at various rotations and sizes and filling in the floor that way. Tiles further away would not need the accuracy of close up tiles.

Dang, I really don't have time to code this up this week.. Posted Image


Have you ever taken a closer look at Rescue on Fractalus? Behind the scene?
Or just watch the videos on youtube again.

C64 is already doing all that stuff...
-No VBI fixed graphics
-Drawing closer ranges more often than distant ones.... and so on....

.... while the Atari is simply drawing frame per frame , beeing allmost 3x as fast ?

What will we see on the A8 after using all those speedup tricks?

I guess, Space Harrier is even using non of them. The only "speedup trick" is the lookup table for the "sprite faces"... but it draws every frame fully, being that fast already.


Sheddy will love to answer that... ;) and SH does how many turns left/right?

#11144 PeteD OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:56 AM

Come on Atari guys, don't be shy, come join TMR's forum Format War

So far its only C64 guys showing up, kind of pointless then.


Pete

#11145 PeteD OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:58 AM

ROFL

I honestly didn't go looking for that, someone just sent me the link. I was reasonably amused until the last half where I nearly died laughing :P

Pete

Edited by PeteD, Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:22 AM.


#11146 andym00 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:42 AM

i have to say that this one appeals to me :)

yes you could do Star Raiders in colour. the only potential stumbling block i can see is the use of "particle" graphics for explosions, which drags down the 1.8mhz atari chip so is certain to have a similar impact on the c64. however i would have thought that the use of c64 sprites to generate the rest of the graphics would compensate somewhat.


Do you mean the particle effects for explosions ? Like this around the 1 minute mark ? Is the the level of particles we're talking about, or is there something larger you're referring to ?

It doesn't look at all difficult for a 64 to do that, and the hardware sprites will more than make up for any CPU differences, and the fact (I think) it appears to be running in half-res mode..

But there was already Star Raiders II on the 64.. Don't know how close or true it is to the original SRII..
Looks a bit kack'ola if you ask me ;)
Posted Image

#11147 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:45 AM

Andy... he is talking about Star Raiders... you mentioned SR2... (and have a look on the A8 version which is good... ;) mode9 planetscape... f.e.)

http://atari.fandal....butt_details_x=

#11148 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:46 AM

o, did Rockford picked that port, too? I guess not...

#11149 TMR OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:48 AM

o, did Rockford picked that port, too? I guess not...


i thought it'd already been done by someone else...?

#11150 andym00 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:53 AM

I played around with the ideas of mode7 years ago when having my snes and doing all the chunky stuff on A8...

of course you can precalculate the texture mapper and you can make it little bit more flexible... but to have 50 fps it is impossible to have a flexible texture mapper where the angle is flexible... as LDA ORA STA is the fastest possible way... and remember that in mode7 we are not using a 80x60 display but a more flexible one with scanline resolution so first of all we would need to calculate how much plotted pixels we are talking about?

if we have this number we can caculate how much ram would the precalculated rendering routine would need. than we see how much cycles are left to implement a more flexible one than the mentioned fixed one. and we know how long these routine would be and then we can think about reusing the mapper for more than 1 angle for the turns...

and... if we are talking about using others than mode9/10 or 11... remember that code size doubles plus ram usage for the textures is 4x... (LDA ORA ORA ORA STA).

just my 2 cents.


Personally I don't think it's doable at an interactive frame-rate, if it was the demo guys would have got there already.. I mean that'd be a major flag waving ceremony for getting that one done, and at a fast enough rate, and it's not as if they're not versed in the art of writing compilers specifically for generating the code for these kinds of things.. It's simple on the surface.. It's just 'constant-Z texture mapping', but it'll be brutal in terms of code-size at any reasonable resolution, and horrendously slow..
But prove me wrong please ;)




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