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Atari v Commodore


stevelanc

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aehm...

 

my rules would be stock machines vs stock machines...

 

so... 800 xl, pal, 64k machine, single load, single pokey vs stock c64... ATR on A8, load "*",8,1 on commie.

 

otherwise we run into a 16k compo thing... ;)

 

Yeah, stock machine produced in 8-bit Era (before STs, Amigas). Allowing a null-modem cable or simple cable for a big game like King's Quest or Fairy Tale Adventure/Myst so data is stored on a standard PC can be allowed so digitized music/graphics are easy and virtual memory is no problem. Don't know what you mean by 16K compo.

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Slow the emulator down and you can see the refresh happening without tearing, so it's synchronised to the vertical blank; there's some moments where only bits move but that's not the game avoiding those updates, it clears the entire bitmap out each refresh and chunks the data back in and those "static" areas are redrawn. Interestingly, if you "break" the colour map for one of the buffers and slow the emulator down a bit, you can even count the frame refreshes off and see that turning is at the same speed as going straight in fact.

 

The emulator shows "crap" after changing the speed. This means that not all drawn parts get shown if one frame is missing. This means that NOT all parts of the screen get actualized every "shown frame". If the frames get updated fully, the frame got corrected after the next redraw.

 

The game doesn't show tearing because the field gets filled with chars and the real memory fill is "outside" the shown range. It's some kind of double buffer. Since it's a VIC feature , I doubt that any emulator shows this correct.

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aehm...

 

my rules would be stock machines vs stock machines...

 

so... 800 xl, pal, 64k machine, single load, single pokey vs stock c64... ATR on A8, load "*",8,1 on commie.

 

otherwise we run into a 16k compo thing... ;)

 

Yeah, stock machine produced in 8-bit Era (before STs, Amigas). Allowing a null-modem cable or simple cable for a big game like King's Quest or Fairy Tale Adventure/Myst so data is stored on a standard PC can be allowed so digitized music/graphics are easy and virtual memory is no problem. Don't know what you mean by 16K compo.

 

I mean if we are reducing the memory for the "challenge" it would go into the demo scene compos like 1k games, 4k intros etc...

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aehm...

 

my rules would be stock machines vs stock machines...

 

so... 800 xl, pal, 64k machine, single load, single pokey vs stock c64... ATR on A8, load "*",8,1 on commie.

 

otherwise we run into a 16k compo thing... ;)

 

Yeah, stock machine produced in 8-bit Era (before STs, Amigas). Allowing a null-modem cable or simple cable for a big game like King's Quest or Fairy Tale Adventure/Myst so data is stored on a standard PC can be allowed so digitized music/graphics are easy and virtual memory is no problem. Don't know what you mean by 16K compo.

 

Repeating what someone said earlier, stock MACHINE not machineS, ie no drives (apart from presuming the file has been loaded from one), ram expansions, cpu expansions, PCs etc.

 

 

 

Pete

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This "memory size" thing is odd.

I have seen people writing 4K games on Windows PCs....

The only fact is that the package has 4K. But after doing some calculations, Megabytes were used, fonts from windows, and so on.

 

How about a one byte combo?

 

Just activate sideborders.

 

What machine would win?

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The emulator shows "crap" after changing the speed. This means that not all drawn parts get shown if one frame is missing. This means that NOT all parts of the screen get actualized every "shown frame". If the frames get updated fully, the frame got corrected after the next redraw.

 

The game doesn't show tearing because the field gets filled with chars and the real memory fill is "outside" the shown range. It's some kind of double buffer. Since it's a VIC feature , I doubt that any emulator shows this correct.

You are wrong, RoF draws the entire frame. If some things don't move it's because of integer coordinates for the lines. You know, subpixel accuracy only got common in the mid 90's and I definitely never have seen it on 8 bit 3D games.

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This "memory size" thing is odd.

I have seen people writing 4K games on Windows PCs....

The only fact is that the package has 4K. But after doing some calculations, Megabytes were used, fonts from windows, and so on.

 

How about a one byte combo?

 

Just activate sideborders.

 

What machine would win?

 

But hard disk drives and floppy disk drives of various types have been available for both machines so having that 2ndary storage (and up to what size) is one aspect to consider.

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Sorry about the 'Donkey Kong' comment. I mixed something up. My fault (it wasn't on the list anyway).

 

BTW:

 

BTW, try to count colours in these pictures, you know, just for kicks. :D These are from the game, right.. ? Oh boy... ROTFL :D

 

Where is your apology for your ignorant 'Wayout' comment?

Still ROTFL?

 

Now to 'Spy Hunter':

 

Is that ALL You've Got ? It's even more comical than "right tone colour" :D

 

Check this out:

 

post-24409-125578386659_thumb.gif

C64

post-24409-125578388083_thumb.gif

ATARI

 

If I were you I would write. Look how bad the water looks on Atari. The C64 version is simply better. PURE RUBBISH. :D

I still think the A8 version is better. It also has slightly richer sound FX (bumps & crashes - seems to utilize two channels for them), plays faster (more like the arcade) and while test playing on the C64 I didn't discovered a single puddle on the road (like on A8 & the arcade). Taking you comparison standard into account (you know, the game with the green clouds) Spy Hunter is much better on the A8. And yes, additionally the colouring for the seasons in the game is better too!

 

But if you are not able to admit that at least 'Blue Max' & 'River Raid' are better on the A8, further discussion with you makes no sense for me (I've attached a last hint for you below).

 

If you are able to overcome your bias, I'm maybe willing to explain why games on the list like 'Pitfall II' are clearly better on the A8:

 

(examine 0:55 and/or inspect this)

 

Remember?

It should be cut to about half its length: Archon, Blue Max, M.U.L.E, Pitfal II, River Raid, Seven Cities of Gold, Stealth, Road Race, Zenji, O'Riley's Mine, Mr.Robot, Oils Well, Spy Hunter (this one is especially comical), Crystal Castles, Rally Speedway (another comical), Star wars (which one exactly ?), Pastfinder, Donkey Kong - all these games are practically identical on C64...

 

Don't you feel a little bit silly now?

 

BTW: The correct form if you don't know what about the adults here are talking could have been:

Could please someone explain why Archon, Blue Max, M.U.L.E, Pitfal II, River Raid, Seven Cities of Gold, Stealth, Road Race, Zenji, O'Riley's Mine, Mr.Robot, Oils Well, Spy Hunter, Crystal Castles, Rally Speedway, Star wars , Pastfinder and Donkey Kong should be better on A8?

 

:roll: :roll: :roll:

post-7778-125598170145_thumb.png

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...Now to 'Spy Hunter':

 

...

I still think the A8 version is better. It also has slightly richer sound FX (bumps & crashes - seems to utilize two channels for them), plays faster (more like the arcade) and while test playing on the C64 I didn't discovered a single puddle on the road (like on A8 & the arcade). Taking you comparison standard into account (you know, the game with the green clouds) Spy Hunter is much better on the A8. And yes, additionally the colouring for the seasons in the game is better too!

...

I remembered that I read in recent RetroGamer detailed review of Spy Hunter and in comparison of different versions on 10 home computers (including PC :) ) it says this:

"Commodore 64 owners can sit smug in knowledge that their home conversion is easily the best of the home computers" and so on....

 

I agree with whoever wrote that review...

 

But I will also quote what they said about A8 version which is also excellent:

"While the roads in the game feel quieter and the graphics notably darker, this version matches the Commodore port in almost every other department..."

 

So basically first two places are ours :)

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Sorry about the 'Donkey Kong' comment. I mixed something up. My fault (it wasn't on the list anyway).

 

BTW:

 

BTW, try to count colours in these pictures, you know, just for kicks. :D These are from the game, right.. ? Oh boy... ROTFL :D

 

Where is your apology for your ignorant 'Wayout' comment?

Still ROTFL?

 

Now to 'Spy Hunter':

 

Is that ALL You've Got ? It's even more comical than "right tone colour" :D

 

Check this out:

 

post-24409-125578386659_thumb.gif

C64

post-24409-125578388083_thumb.gif

ATARI

 

If I were you I would write. Look how bad the water looks on Atari. The C64 version is simply better. PURE RUBBISH. :D

I still think the A8 version is better. It also has slightly richer sound FX (bumps & crashes - seems to utilize two channels for them), plays faster (more like the arcade) and while test playing on the C64 I didn't discovered a single puddle on the road (like on A8 & the arcade). Taking you comparison standard into account (you know, the game with the green clouds) Spy Hunter is much better on the A8. And yes, additionally the colouring for the seasons in the game is better too!

 

But if you are not able to admit that at least 'Blue Max' & 'River Raid' are better on the A8, further discussion with you makes no sense for me (I've attached a last hint for you below).

 

If you are able to overcome your bias, I'm maybe willing to explain why games on the list like 'Pitfall II' are clearly better on the A8:

 

(examine 0:55 and/or inspect this)

 

Remember?

It should be cut to about half its length: Archon, Blue Max, M.U.L.E, Pitfal II, River Raid, Seven Cities of Gold, Stealth, Road Race, Zenji, O'Riley's Mine, Mr.Robot, Oils Well, Spy Hunter (this one is especially comical), Crystal Castles, Rally Speedway (another comical), Star wars (which one exactly ?), Pastfinder, Donkey Kong - all these games are practically identical on C64...

 

Don't you feel a little bit silly now?

 

BTW: The correct form if you don't know what about the adults here are talking could have been:

Could please someone explain why Archon, Blue Max, M.U.L.E, Pitfal II, River Raid, Seven Cities of Gold, Stealth, Road Race, Zenji, O'Riley's Mine, Mr.Robot, Oils Well, Spy Hunter, Crystal Castles, Rally Speedway, Star wars , Pastfinder and Donkey Kong should be better on A8?

 

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Well, I see you trying to prove that you are a comic genius. It's okay with me, but if you think that I'm going to philosophize which "colour tone is right" or count pixels in each of your comical comparisons, you must be out of your tree ! I know it's an utter waste of time, but I'll try again (I hope the last time). Could you please stop talking nonsense and finally do as you promised: "For every title you can find, there is an other C64 title with a higher 'Lemon-rating' where the Atari version is even better." I encourage you as much as I can to MAKE THESE FANCY PERCENTAGE COMPARISONS. It's your idea, remember ? Or maybe you just have relised that it's impossible because your list is too short, hence we can see your comical comparisons like Blue Max etc.

COMPARE THESE LEMON PERCENTAGES, AS YOU BRAGGED ABOUT. COULD YOU DO THIS OR NOT ? IF NOT, GO DREAM SOMEWHERE ELSE AND STOP BOTHER ME, PLEASE.

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Sorry lads, today no C64/A8 comparisons, because my main source (Atarimania) of A8 pictures is down (I don't know what happened). I'll be back tomorrow. ;)

 

It's not down, simply been redesigned. just go to the main www.atarimania.com url and you can get back to the games pages from there. Wouldn't want to deny everyone their daily comparisons. ;)

 

 

Pete

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You are wrong, RoF draws the entire frame. If some things don't move it's because of integer coordinates for the lines. You know, subpixel accuracy only got common in the mid 90's and I definitely never have seen it on 8 bit 3D games.

 

 

Come on. The whole C64 gamescreen is a "trick". Please examine the hills in the A8 version and the weird black-bars that seem to look like.

The C64 version uses a fully different logic for building the scene.

Even IF C64 draws all content, it doesn't calculate all the needed stuff.

And, well, you call it "Subpixel accuracy" what's missing in the C64 version, why doesn't this "move only 20% on the screen" happen in the A8 version?

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Hey Rockford, while you're on hold, I'd like to let you know that every time you use Atarimania screenshots to support an argument of wrongly chosen colours (mind you I'm not talking about less on-screen colours), you are essentially defeating yourself. Screenshots at Atarimania simply have wrong colours; that's because they used an Atari800Win emulator which emulates colours improperly. To add more to confusion, NTSC and PAL Ataris actually produce different sets of colours, and that emulator does not support this feature at all!

 

So if you want your claims of wrongly chosen colours to have any value whatsoever, you would want to make the screenshots yourself. It is possible for the emulator to produce correct colours only by means of loading an external palette. The most accurate palettes available right now are Oliviern.act for American games, and laoo.act for European ones.

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Please examine the hills in the A8 version and the weird black-bars that seem to look like.

Could you point me to a specific screenshot? I'm not sure what black bars you are mentioning.

 

And, well, you call it "Subpixel accuracy" what's missing in the C64 version, why doesn't this "move only 20% on the screen" happen in the A8 version?

Oh yes it does happen. Look at the video you've yourself posted earlier.

, you can clearly see a few frames where only the closest mountains move, and those on the horizon remain perfectly stationary. Edited by Kr0tki
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... or count pixels in each of your comical comparisons, you must be out of your tree !

You even don't know the difference between a histogram and a single pixel? Many graphic programs can count different colours...

 

...MAKE THESE FANCY PERCENTAGE COMPARISONS

 

Still NO percentages. Percentages are irrelevant. Maybe the post #9048 from popmilo helps you.

You are not able to accept that "Blue Max" and "River Raid" are better on the A8 - this means for me EOD and trying to enlighten you is simple a waste of time.

Edited by Irgendwer
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If you like to see one of the most beautiful examples for PM-graphics, you will find it here at 1:04:

 

Good use of a single player in an impressive height and the usual 'single' colour... ;)

 

How come the Commodore didn't have the extra level? Surely it is only an 8K cartridge game and the 64 should be able to handle it? They were complaing that the Commodore had the extra International Karate 'London' stage and the ATARI 800 does not, but basically it was the same way the other way around. ATARI 800 has the extra Pitfall 2 level, while 64 does not.

Maybe the 64 couldn't handle it!?

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Oh yes it does happen. Look at the video you've yourself posted earlier.
, you can clearly see a few frames where only the closest mountains move, and those on the horizon remain perfectly stationary.

 

 

Well, you found at least one. But, have a closer look at the viewing distance(depth) and that the C64 version is full of this "front moving" "back does not".

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Oh yes it does happen. Look at the video you've yourself posted earlier.
, you can clearly see a few frames where only the closest mountains move, and those on the horizon remain perfectly stationary.

 

Well, you found at least one. But, have a closer look at the viewing distance(depth) and that the C64 version is full of this "front moving" "back does not".

 

Since it all has to refresh when the player starts turning, it's obviously being redrawn and you're wrong.

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Well, you found at least one. But, have a closer look at the viewing distance(depth) and that the C64 version is full of this "front moving" "back does not".

If you flied in the Atari version straight without turning, with speed set to 1/8 (this C64 film is full of such flying), you'd notice the same feature. Only it would be less noticeable due to higher framerate.

 

Next time try actually running the game before you start bragging about it.

Edited by Kr0tki
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are we not speculating about ROFL? I personally doubt that they splittet the drawing into layers... this does not make sense from programming point of view...

 

look... if we are saying we are drawing only the front mountains when necessary and save the cycles... how would you do that?

 

I mean you definitly need to redraw the whole screen... we do not have a z-buffer or a blitter where we can see if we need to draw (so to say delta-updating)

 

we draw from back to front otherwise we run in clipping issues... so... the background needs to be drawn anyway? you can not leave it there for the next frame and draw on top? why? how would you erase the moving front mountains and restore the background?

 

no.no...i don't believe this "optimisation" in the c64 version...

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