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800XL Motherboards variants "NTSC PAL SECAM" for dummies


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#1 Marsupilami OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:07 PM

Hello all,

i just did this, i think it was missing.

Posted Image

Feel free to tell me if i did any mistakes or if i it needs any updates.

For detailled pictures:

- The SECAM
- The NTSC
- The PAL

And B.T.W. i think there are mistakes in the "Atari 8-Bit Computers:FAQ":

1ST:

ANTIC -- 400/800/1200XL,NTSC:CO12296 400/800,PAL:CO14887
===== 600XL/800XL/XE,NTSC:CO21697 XL/XE,PAL:CO21698

should be :

ANTIC -- 400/800/1200XL,NTSC:CO12296 400/800,PAL:CO14887
===== 600XL/800XL/XE,NTSC:CO21697 XL/XE,PAL,SECAM:CO21698

Because all my SECAM have the CO21698 (and this one only).

2ND:

Subject: 1.6) What is the Atari 800XL?

SECAM (France) version, produced fall 1984 by Atari Corp.
- "SECAM ROSE" motherboard
- FREDDIE memory management chip
- FGTIA; PAL ANTIC
- Monitor port has unique pinout, 6 pins instead of 5;
includes composite video but not chrominance nor luminance signals
- No TV jack
- No TV channel switch
- Internal color/monochrome switch
labeled for some reason as "50Hz / 60 Hz" here:
http://arklif.free.f...n-Compresse.jpg

- This latest picture is usefull but...wrong (that's why i just did the whole thing from scratch): Basic/bios inverted, Freddie/ANTIC inverted.
- There is no 50/60 Hz switch, it's just a color/B&W switch

And finally, i don't know if they are different but on the secam i have 2 differents pokeys: CO12294 and CO12294B (so can we think we have a rev A and rev B ?).

#2 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:21 PM

Difference in Pokey? No idea... AFAIK, all Pokeys were the same regardless of PAL/NTSC or even arcade.

GTIA for Secam, of course, was significantly different... to free up pins they used a serial input scheme so all the Trigs could share the one pin.

They use a 74LS165 to shift the data for presentation to FGTIA... I don't know what it uses as a clocking source... it presents all 4 bits in under a scanline.

It might be possible that a modified Pokey supplies something like a stepped down clock... but I kinda doubt it, we would have known about it by now.

#3 kheller2 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:01 PM

Does anybody have a hi-res shot of the 128K 800XL that best electronics has in their REV10 catalog?

#4 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:14 AM

PIA should be 6520a not 6502a in you 800xl ntsc...

#5 Marius OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:06 AM

Nice idea,

but don't forget there are many other variants / revisions of motherboards (especially 800XL's!)

I only have PAL machines, and I have 4 or 5 different mainboards. The variant with freddie is the biggest 'change'.

Greetz
M.

#6 Marius OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:11 AM

You call the monitor port a TV port. I think most people use that Monitor port as a TV port indeed (like you write: to scart) but it is a wrong label.

As written: PIA is 6520 not 6502

it is not an AC power port, but a DC power port!

And I think your OS label "Revision B" is making things unclear too. I know there is OS-B for atari 800....

and that variable resistor on the left is not for changing frequency, but for changing COLOR.

greetz.
M.

Edited by Marius1976, Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:13 AM.


#7 mimo OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:38 PM

Yes, don't forget the XL-F board

#8 Marsupilami OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 2, 2009 5:08 AM

First of all, thanks a lot for your interesting answers.

PIA should be 6520a not 6502a in you 800xl ntsc...

As written: PIA is 6520 not 6502

You are absolutely right , my fingers slipped :)

but don't forget there are many other variants / revisions of motherboards (especially 800XL's!)
I only have PAL machines, and I have 4 or 5 different mainboards. The variant with freddie is the biggest 'change'.

I know, i also have a lot of SECAM mainboards, all different. But the components are in the same place.
Are you telling me that you have a PAL 800XL with a freddie ?

You call the monitor port a TV port. I think most people use that Monitor port as a TV port indeed (like you write: to scart) but it is a wrong label.
it is not an AC power port, but a DC power port!
And I think your OS label "Revision B" is making things unclear too. I know there is OS-B for atari 800....
and that variable resistor on the left is not for changing frequency, but for changing COLOR.

Ok, thanks.

Yes, don't forget the XL-F board

Well, tell me if i'm wrong but all secam are XL-F.

I'll update my work soon and keep you informed :)

#9 Marsupilami OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 2, 2009 7:29 AM

Hello again,

The update is done.

Since i can't modify my first post (don't know why), here are the new links :
NTSC Motherboard
PAL Motherboard
SECAM Motherboard

And the little gif as been updated too :)

Posted Image

Edited by Marsupilami, Mon Mar 2, 2009 7:39 AM.


#10 Marius OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 2, 2009 8:29 AM

Yes I have two freddie PAL xl's

and I still read something about frequency there on the bottom left. As far as I know that variable resistor is for color, not for frequency.

#11 Marsupilami OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 2, 2009 9:19 AM

Oops, i've missed this one ! Thanks Marius !
If you can send me a hi-res shot of your freddie PAL xl's, i'll be glad to add them :)

Latest update :

NTSC
PAL
SECAM

#12 kheller2 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 3, 2009 10:18 PM

I still want to see a 800XLF 128K board. :_(

#13 Marius OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 4, 2009 1:48 AM

I still want to see a 800XLF 128K board. :_(


Is there a 128KB 800XLF board?

I have 800XL's with Freddie, but eh... I have over 30 atari's, all closed with 6 screws... and I do not know which one or two do have the freddie :S :S :S :S :S :S

So I can not promise I'll make that picture soon.......

#14 Marsupilami OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 4, 2009 4:22 AM

Yes, don't forget the XL-F board

Well, tell me if i'm wrong but all secam are XL-F.

Well, after a new reading of the A8B Faq, i have to admit i was mistaken: XLF are not SECAM.
PAL (Europe) version, produced fall 1984 by Atari Corp.
	 - "800XLF" motherboard
	 - FREDDIE memory management chip
So i still miss a good picture of an XLF...And an XLF :cool:

I still want to see a 800XLF 128K board. :_(

Mee too :)

Is there a 128KB 800XLF board?

I don't know, but according to the FAQ:
Rare variations of the 800XL:
  o  Some late-distribution 800XLs were sold with 128K RAM.
But that's all i've found about it. It's does not say if they are NTCS/PAL and/or SECAM...

I have 800XL's with Freddie, but eh... I have over 30 atari's, all closed with 6 screws... and I do not know which one or two do have the freddie :S :S :S :S :S :S

I understand :) Maybe some GURU here have a basic trick to detect a Freddie ?

Edited by Marsupilami, Wed Mar 4, 2009 4:23 AM.


#15 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 4, 2009 5:26 AM

Given that "Some late-distribution 800XLs were sold with 128K RAM."

I suppose that would that have been a 2x8 RAM chip solution as per earlier 130XEs.

Or could it have used 4x 4164 as per later 130XEs and the XEGS?

#16 Defender II OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 4, 2009 4:41 PM

Given that "Some late-distribution 800XLs were sold with 128K RAM."

I suppose that would that have been a 2x8 RAM chip solution as per earlier 130XEs.

Or could it have used 4x 4164 as per later 130XEs and the XEGS?


Great question!!!
Maybe if Curt is feeling better he can find out for us unless someone else knows??
I'd like to get an XLF and some PAL & SECAM systems too.

Edited by Defender II, Wed Mar 4, 2009 5:06 PM.


#17 kheller2 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 4, 2009 6:21 PM

Best Electronics Rev 10 catalog page 92: "Picture of a very rare Prototype Atari 800XL style 800XE mother board. This Prototype 800XE Mother board has the same chip set as an Atari 130XE including the extra 64K memory Bank and Freddie chip! Never Released"

I hope Best doesn't mind, if they do I'm sure we can delete the picture.
xlf.png

#18 Marsupilami OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 5, 2009 7:03 AM

Best Electronics Rev 10 catalog page 92: "Picture of a very rare Prototype Atari 800XL style 800XE mother board. This Prototype 800XE Mother board has the same chip set as an Atari 130XE including the extra 64K memory Bank and Freddie chip! Never Released"

I hope Best doesn't mind, if they do I'm sure we can delete the picture.
xlf.png

Hum..But has you said it's still a prototype, it's not a proof they've been sold...

#19 hunmanik OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 5, 2009 10:59 AM

Is there a 128KB 800XLF board?

I don't know, but according to the FAQ:
Rare variations of the 800XL:
	    o  Some late-distribution 800XLs were sold with 128K RAM.
But that's all i've found about it. It's does not say if they are NTCS/PAL and/or SECAM...


I tried to find where that reference came from, but I could not.  I was sure I added it at someone's request, long ago.

I think kheller's guess that it was originally based on the proto 800XL style 800XE pictured by Best is a pretty good guess.

In any event, I will remove that reference to a rare 128K 800XL because I agree, it's highly questionable.  thanks.

#20 hunmanik OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 5, 2009 11:11 AM

And B.T.W. i think there are mistakes in the "Atari 8-Bit Computers:FAQ":

1ST:

ANTIC -- 400/800/1200XL,NTSC:CO12296 400/800,PAL:CO14887
===== 600XL/800XL/XE,NTSC:CO21697 XL/XE,PAL:CO21698

should be :

ANTIC -- 400/800/1200XL,NTSC:CO12296 400/800,PAL:CO14887
===== 600XL/800XL/XE,NTSC:CO21697 XL/XE,PAL,SECAM:CO21698

Because all my SECAM have the CO21698 (and this one only).


I think it's just a semantic issue.  SECAM computers used the PAL ANTIC.  But I'll add a note there to make that clear, thanks.


2ND:

Subject: 1.6) What is the Atari 800XL?

SECAM (France) version, produced fall 1984 by Atari Corp.
- Internal color/monochrome switch
labeled for some reason as "50Hz / 60 Hz" here:
http://arklif.free.f...n-Compresse.jpg

- This latest picture is usefull but...wrong (that's why i just did the whole thing from scratch): Basic/bios inverted, Freddie/ANTIC inverted.
- There is no 50/60 Hz switch, it's just a color/B&W switch



Yes, that's become clear now.  And I agree that the free.fr picture creates more confusion than it's worth, so I've removed that link.  Thanks.

#21 Marsupilami OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 5, 2009 11:28 AM

Yes, that's become clear now.  And I agree that the free.fr picture creates more confusion than it's worth, so I've removed that link.  Thanks.

You're welcome, and B.T.W, thanks a lot for your work on the FAQ, it's a very usefull source of information ;)

#22 kheller2 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 5, 2009 6:24 PM

I'm pretty certain some 800XLs (non NTSC) units did have 128K. In fact I vaguely remember seeing pictures of the box that said something like "now with 128K". I could have dreamt it. Not to be confused with the 800XE branded 65XE on a 900XLF board nor the 800XL-F Rose.

You know, it would be interesting to find out what happened to all the non-US Atari documents, headquarters etc stuff went.

I would like to just take a 800XL-F and make it NTSC for fun.

#23 hunmanik OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:09 AM

I'm pretty certain some 800XLs (non NTSC) units did have 128K. In fact I vaguely remember seeing pictures of the box that said something like "now with 128K". I could have dreamt it.


Well, if anything more concrete ever turns up, be sure to let me know!

#24 Philsan OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 6, 2011 1:16 PM

Here
http://www.multiupload.com/2UUGHVTLXR
you can find four 800XL PAL motherboards pictures (Rev.A, Rev.D PBT 374, Rev.D PBT 414, Rev.D PBT 504), different from the three Marsupilami's published ones. What does "PBT" means?
A life span of two years, at least 8 PAL MBs revisions (I have to take a picture of my Rev.D PBT 364) and 5 PAL/NTSC keyboards revisions!
(Marsupilami, if you want you can insert them in your website).


BTW, reading this thread I've discovered that hunmanik is Michael Current.
Thank you very much for your FAQs Michael!

EDIT
All my MB, apart the first, are Rev.D (not Rev.B as previously written).

Edited by Philsan, Fri May 6, 2011 4:33 PM.


#25 kheller2 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:25 AM

Philsan could you upload those again. The file share has expired.




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