Which consoles lose the most through emulation?

[+thegoldenband]

Many of us have limited space and budgets, and need to be choosy about which consoles we seek out. Obviously, the best ones to collect are the ones we enjoy the most. But it seems to me that another good benchmark when considering a purchase is: how much does this console lose through emulation?

 

For example:

 

The NES seems to me to lose very, very little via emulation. Faithful, full-speed emulation is a present-day reality on most machines. The NES library has been more or less completely dumped, and the homebrew scene is small, so there's very little if anything that's only available on cart. The console itself is notoriously flaky, 72-pin connector replacement notwithstanding, but shows up everywhere. The games are actively sought by collectors, and it's almost impossible to get a complete collection, especially if you're interested in foreign games. And the standard controllers are very easy to imitate, while the nonstandard ones (Zapper, Power Pad, etc.) are only used in a handful of games.

 

The 2600 is, to my mind, a borderline case. The emulators are great, of course, especially Stella. The game library has been dumped and is easily available, but there are a lot of excellent homebrews only available on cart. The console is robust and widely available, and most of the better games are relatively common, though the rarest games are impossible to find. The joysticks are easy to emulate, but the paddles (and driving controllers) are extremely distinctive, and I haven't found a good substitute, though I know there's a USB adaptor out there.

 

The Intellivision is also very well-emulated (by jzintv), but it's not easy to do the controllers justice. The game library has been dumped and most of it is legally available via various collections, but the majority of Intellivision games are available relatively cheaply, even CIB, though the later ones are fairly expensive. The console seems reasonably robust, though the controllers sometimes give out, and you don't see a lot of them in the wild. The homebrew scene is admirable, but quite small. The controllers are quirky and difficult to reproduce in an intuitive way. For some games, the control you get via emulation may be preferable, but for others you really miss out on the complete experience if you don't have the original controllers with overlays.

 

So if I were making recommendations to a friend, I'd say "Skip the NES, keep an eye out for a cheap VCS, buy the INTV on Ebay with a good lot of games."

 

(Which, as it happens, is exactly what I did myself.)

 

What about you? Which ones are "close enough", and which ones aren't? For the ones where you insist on the real thing, is it the controllers, the quality of emulation (or lack thereof), the packaging and extras, or some indefinable something else that makes you say "Real hardware or bust!"

[+thegoldenband]

I'm especially curious about older systems like the Odyssey2, the Fairchild, and the Astrocade, none of which I've ever had the chance to play. The latter two have unusual controllers that I've read are difficult to duplicate via emulator, while the O2 has a bunch of "extras" like overlays and board games that, so I'm told, help to give the system its distinctive flavor. Reading Chronogamer's blog has reinforced the impression that emulators like MESS just can't do these systems complete justice.

 

Another point in favor of real hardware is when the system has a great flash- or multi-cart available, so feel free to factor that in as well.

Edited August 31, 2009 by thegoldenband

[MagitekAngel]

ZSNES has never quite cut it for me. Every version on every computer I have ever tried with every controller has an unacceptable input lag. Also, the sound is just a tad too "metallic", if that makes any sense at all.

[Reaperman]

I don't really know which loses the most, but neo geo emulation always seemed the most obviously 'off' to me. There are so many twitch and timing based games/moves on that system that it really shows off lag in the control emulation.

 

Neo geo emulation has been 'pretty darn good' for well over a decade now, but it still feels like taking a shower with a raincoat on.

 

also, I've noticed differences in how NES Super C feels on my modded xbox vs. real/clone hardware. I just die a lot less. maybe it's that xbox controller, but it feels like more.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Reaperman

[MagitekAngel]

Neo geo emulation has been 'pretty darn good' for well over a decade now, but it still feels like taking a shower with a raincoat on.

 

Ah hah.. hah.... dirty jokes

[S1500]

One emulation annoyance factor has been the ROMs. I have this Atari 2600 ROM collection, problem is, it has EVERY variation of every game ever known. I don't need 8 copies of 3-D Tic Tac Toe, 4 of them being PAL variants. Someday I gotta trim down to just 1 copy/game.

 

I just like downloading 1 zip file with all the ROMs. Most of the time, you only find those zippies on P2p exchange networks, not on websites.

[Tom-Lynx]

The Nintendo DS and Nintendo Virtual Boy for obvious reasons.

[desiv]

I'd say pretty obviously, the Vectrex pales...

Not that the emulators aren't good. They are great.

But you can't simulate Vector screens. Not really....

 

And the controls lose something, not being analog and self centering (unless you have one of those on your PC and the emulator supports it, I didn't).

 

I'd also say arcade emulators for Vertical games (unless you flip your monitor on it's side).

That being said, I run Vantage in a cab with an arcade monitor vertically mounted, and I can't tell the difference...

(I know you said consoles... )

 

desiv

Edited August 31, 2009 by desiv

[Lord Helmet]

The Atari Jaguar.

[STICH666]

ZSNES has never quite cut it for me. Every version on every computer I have ever tried with every controller has an unacceptable input lag. Also, the sound is just a tad too "metallic", if that makes any sense at all.

SNES9x Works pretty well for me. Try that one. It's been around forever. PS1 emulators are now doing 100% emulation with only minor glitches like FMV skipping and sound popping. Sauturn emulators are almost there. They just need to work out some speed issues. N64 Emulators are dead on perfect and they increase the resolution to make the games look even better.

[VectorGamer]

The 5200 - although you gain better controls you lose the frustration of dealing with those analog controllers.

[+thegoldenband]

ZSNES has never quite cut it for me. Every version on every computer I have ever tried with every controller has an unacceptable input lag. Also, the sound is just a tad too "metallic", if that makes any sense at all.

I've never tried ZSNES, but I've never noticed any input lag with SNES9X. I wonder if the "metallic" quality you're hearing is aliasing? Maybe the SNES hardware itself has a better anti-aliasing filter.

 

I don't really know which loses the most, but neo geo emulation always seemed the most obviously 'off' to me. There are so many twitch and timing based games/moves on that system that it really shows off lag in the control emulation.

Interesting. The Neo Geo is definitely an example of a system I'm unlikely to collect, between the high cost and the focus on certain genres of games -- though I love those comically gargantuan cartridges! I haven't tried it via emulation yet, but I'll keep your comments in mind.

 

The Nintendo DS and Nintendo Virtual Boy for obvious reasons.

Yes, my experiences emulating the Virtual Boy have been pretty dismal -- without the 3-D, it's basically pointless. Sooner or later we'll get another stereoscopic console. (I wonder if my sister still has her VB?)

 

I'd say pretty obviously, the Vectrex pales...Not that the emulators aren't good. They are great. But you can't simulate Vector screens. Not really....

That was the big revelation for me when I last visited Funspot, seeing how wonderful Asteroids looked with those little pinpoints of light. I have a friend with a Vectrex, but we've never gotten together to give it a spin.

 

The Atari Jaguar.

Indeed, that was the main 1990s console that crossed my mind. Are there any significant emulators out there for the Jaguar? I'm an OS X user, and I get the impression that there's basically nothing -- and also that the Jaguar community is somewhat hostile to emulation (is that correct?). I have yet to see one in the wild, and can't really see myself collecting for the system, but I would like to try it someday.

 

PS1 emulators are now doing 100% emulation with only minor glitches like FMV skipping and sound popping. Sauturn emulators are almost there. They just need to work out some speed issues. N64 Emulators are dead on perfect and they increase the resolution to make the games look even better.

I'll have to check out the latest generations of all three. I can get full-speed N64 emulation on my PowerBook, but I don't have an appropriate controller (though I do own a N64). I've tried Yabause, but it's quite slow on my machine. Wasn't there a decent commercial PS1 emulator some years back? I assume the current emulators are more accurate, and consequently slower.

 

The 5200 - although you gain better controls you lose the frustration of dealing with those analog controllers.

We used a 2600 controller adapter back in the day! I'm trying to remember which games really needed the 5200 controllers -- it's only a bare handful, no? Maybe I could figure out a hack to use my CoCo joysticks to get that non-centering goodness.

[Video]

For me, the controller is the important thing for classic gaming. I can use third party sticks sure, but I don't really care to use a keyboard for a replacement for a joystick.

 

That being said 8 and 16 bit are almost perfectly emulated, heck, even 32, if it's followed enough is pretty much perfect (gameby and PSX work perfectly) And I don't mind playing those with a X-box pad, it works for them.

 

One thing that really gets up my ass on emulators though, is angles. Why in the hell, does say (well, every 16 bit emulator I've come across actually) have such a problem with angles? I mean, they go out of their way to make them emulate any button you could want, but with diagonal your stuck. Look, it's Up down, left and right. If I want an angle, it's going to be a combination of those....yet every emulator wants a new button for the angles, can't do diagonal. To bad to, SNES IRL is one of my favorite consoles....yet in the emulator world, it's one of my least favorites...just because of a controller issue which makes some of my favorite games literally unplayable.

[VectorGamer]

MAME - Pac-Man et al using a Gravis Gamepad sux...

[STICH666]

For PS1 use the emulator called PSXfin. It goes for accuracy over graphical quality. Oh and now there's a near 100% perfect Dreamcast emulator called Chankast.

Edited August 31, 2009 by STICH666

[SnapCraft]

I'd say pretty obviously, the Vectrex pales...

Not that the emulators aren't good. They are great.

But you can't simulate Vector screens. Not really....

 

And the controls lose something, not being analog and self centering (unless you have one of those on your PC and the emulator supports it, I didn't).

 

Second that. And 1up it. "Not really..."? How about not at all. Like fatherhood, the Vectrex is something to be experienced first-hand. You can talk about it all you want. You can play your little emulator in the dark and try to duplicate the effect, but nothing can emulate a Vectrex. The buzz, the trail effect, the overlays. The Vectrex is a true experience. And still some people don't know about it (not here, of course). If it weren't for the damn Crash it might have more than its 20 something games.

 

And I haven't even gotten the 3-D goggles yet!

[Mazerati]

the Intellivision by FAR

i find it unplayable without the controllers

[Reaperman]

the Intellivision by FAR

i find it unplayable without the controllers

so hard to resist the obvious intellivision controller joke setup

Edited September 1, 2009 by Reaperman

[Pixelboy]

Aside from BlueMSX and Meka, I haven't really experimented with emulators in quite a while. Has N64 emulation improved these last few years? That's one console that lost a lot in emulation, in terms of on-screen rendering and joypad support. At least it did in the "pioneering" early days...

[Jess Ragan]

I'd have to say that the Atari 5200 doesn't work so well in emulation. You'd think that it would be fantastic to be forever freed of those terrible controllers, but the keypad doesn't map well to a keyboard and most of the emulators I've tried have come up short. Old-school computers lose something when run on an emulator too, usually because the emulators in question are anything but user-friendly, but also because those old machines use weird non-standardized keyboard layouts. The VIC-20 is especially awful about this because it has a set of cryptic commands that can only be accessed within quotation marks. They were tough to use before and even more frustrating when you have to hunt around for the quotes on your keyboard because the key that's supposed to work no longer does.

[STICH666]

Aside from BlueMSX and Meka, I haven't really experimented with emulators in quite a while. Has N64 emulation improved these last few years? That's one console that lost a lot in emulation, in terms of on-screen rendering and joypad support. At least it did in the "pioneering" early days...

N64 emulation is amazing. I can get Project64 to render all games in 1440x900 without any lag at all. Joypad support is great now too. I just use a 360 controller.

[Seob]

Only 4 games use an overlay on the O2, 3 of them are board games, one a music game. The O2 joystick can be adjusted to work with the stella joystick adapter.

[Asaki]

I would never, ever replace a console with emulation. I only use emulation for games I don't have, or cannot have, if I don't have a flash cart, or just for general convenience (running emus on GBA/DS on the go, multiplayer emu on the Wii, etc.).

 

I do like a lot of the Wii emus, though. Running in their native resolution on an analogue TV is pretty nice, though being limited to only two or three different kinds of controllers isn't so nice.

[Asaki]

One thing that really gets up my ass on emulators though, is angles. Why in the hell, does say (well, every 16 bit emulator I've come across actually) have such a problem with angles? I mean, they go out of their way to make them emulate any button you could want, but with diagonal your stuck. Look, it's Up down, left and right.

 

I had that problem with SNES9x, so I decided to just stick with ZSNES, which works fine.

[Lendorien]

I would never, ever replace a console with emulation. I only use emulation for games I don't have, or cannot have, if I don't have a flash cart, or just for general convenience (running emus on GBA/DS on the go, multiplayer emu on the Wii, etc.).

 

I do like a lot of the Wii emus, though. Running in their native resolution on an analogue TV is pretty nice, though being limited to only two or three different kinds of controllers isn't so nice.

 

Hmmm. I sort of have the same sort of thought on emulation, though I'll be honest, once PS2 emulation gets its feet under it properly, I'll probably switch to that entirely with the games I own. The PS2 has some beautiful games that look even more amazing with proper anti aliasing. I tried out ff10 with full antialiasing and texture smoothing and it was almost a completely different game. Plus, finding USB controllers in the style of the PS2 is no problem at all. Course, it has a long way to go yet before the PS2 hits a solid emulation level.

 

But the PS2 is a different beast than the classic gaming platforms of yore.