The Jag Community is Pathfinding

[doctorclu]

Curt,

 

I loved your message. You know, I felt a lot of what you said, and you of all people have a right to be angry. You've given much to Atari development only to see it piddled away. Just wanted to let you know that your message hit home in many ways. I especially liked the part of your message...

 

"4. You are actually concerned with PIRACY!!?!?! YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Notice how nearly every 2600, 5200, 7800, 800 homebrew is freely postedup for everyone to download. Yet when someone makes carts - peoplestill want to buy the physical carts."

 

So true. Something that has been said many times, and honestly, I wonder when the Jaguar scene can see the openness and creativity that other Atari scenes enjoy. Some could say the Jaguar seen is younger than the other Atari scenes, but by now, not by much.

 

I just wanted to say a few positive things about the Jaguar community for a moment.

 

First off, yes there is a lot of strife, but speaking of people I like and people I don't like currently in it, I have actually see people in all factions instruct, give, and teach. The Removers have given, Jagware has given, Gorf and the 3D Stooges have given. And of the Scatologic crew, they have given developed, and I think we owe a lot to the public domain status of the platform to them.

 

There are flame wars going on, but that is one small percentage vocal faction. Most developers are not in the flame wars, and really there are connections between all factions behind the scenes.

 

For example, currently on FreeJag, there is a project to disassemble my beloved favorite game, Bubsy. As you know I have asked you, Jay, and the lawyers at Atari for the source for that game, but I fear it is lost. But thanks to many, we have been able to take that game apart and take a good look at it. Been a lot of fun, enlightening, and a bit educational.

 

http://freejag.atari.org/forum/index.php?topic=40.0

 

We have made a lot of progress in this indepth look into a classic Jaguar game, and people from the Removers, Jagware, and JS2 have been a part of this project. We even have people who originally produced and wrote elements of that game chiming in.

 

Trevor Raynsford: Music engine writer for Bubsy

http://freejag.atari.org/forum/index.php?topic=51.0

 

Producer for Bubsy

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/85838-bubsy-your-opinions/page__view__findpost__p__1829209

 

Curt overall, just wanted to say, definately hear and completely feel what you are saying. The Jaguar community has been frustrating. If not for Bubsy, probably would have sold off my Jaguar collection years ago. But just wanted to let you know in the background of all these dramatic flame wars, there are still some people having fun on the Jaguar.

 

========================================

 

For those of you on the frontlines of the flame wars, I understand your passion. Do yourself a favor though. The other side will never listen to you, give up, let the other side enjoy their Jaguar gaming, and go about your own Jaguar gaming. Turn the other check, and leave those people in your dust.

 

You see, the internet is large, and it is just granted we are not all going to get along. So my challenge to you developers who are in the flame wars... show who's best by developing the better games! Go to your corners, have fun with your other Jaguar friends, enjoy your Jaguar games, and get away from the flame threads. Waste of time.

 

People say the strife in the Jaguar community is like nothing anyone has ever seen on any Atari platform. I disagree. The Atari 8 Bit computer platform in the heyday was about this bad at times. People hated other people in the user groups I was a part of. But one great thing out of all that hatred... COMPETITION. People worked to out program each other.

 

Not the healthiest solution, but a solution for now.

[+remowilliams]

I very much agree with Curt, and I think this was a nice follow on doctorclu. I figured I'd take the opportunity to say so now, before this gets locked as well.

[Atari_Owl]

1. No one works openly and constructively,

7. Learn to WORK with one another, TALK with one another, SHARE idea's and such with one another - hey here's an idea

 

To be fair some working together DOES happen.

 

For just one example the Main Code thing:

a. Several people helped with SMAC/ALN - something which gets very little mention

b. THe GPU in Main work around was included in SMAC to ease its use and then made fully public when people didn't notice/use that.

 

Ok i'll even say now as well that Starcat is helping me with 3D modelling, and i've supplied him and others with code in the past.

I'm also assisting another UK person on their project - although i've been shamefully negligent of my responsiblities and i need to do more for him.

 

I'm SURE i'm not alone in this - i just keep my head down usually, i believe others are the same.

 

I guess i'm just saying that some discussion does go on, just not always obviously and admittedly as Curt said, not openly.

 

 

 

@Remo - i think there's no reason why this thread shouldn't go on, provided people keep their heads

There plainly are some problems within the Jag community I've always believed this (although a lot of the recent ones started from outside it) and they do need to be addressed - i don't think that can be denied.

Actually the DC dev scene is sometimes just as unpleasant. I've seen some horrendous faction wars and forum splits going on there.

 

Editted to correct spelling of Curt's name, sorry Curt.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Atari_Owl

[PeterG]

I don't know why the other thread was closed but I just wanted to say that I can understand how someone can get frustrated over all the stuff going on in this community, especially if he has contributed as much as Curt and seeing only very little happening in return. So even if I can't make any use of the released sources and such I am very grateful that you released all those things to the community Curt. The thing is that my outlook on the community isn't that bleak as yours. I had the feeling that stuff finally started to get better with the release of the skunkboard and the new devtools and all kinds of software popping up here and there. Only recently did it get worse again but it does not have to stay that way.

As with everyone who is angry and frustrated right now I would hope that you calm down and reconsider and then maybe one day see that not everything is as bad.

Best wishes.

Peter

[frenchman]

This made me laugh, there's a guy actually worried about the ten Jaguar users in the whole of Europe

 

 

All games from 3DSSS/Force design are now subject to the following policy. NO MORE OVER SEAS SALES! PERIOD! Most of the trouble we are dealing with is coming from there. Sorry folks.....I can no longer trust these getting out. All games will be hard serialized...not necessarily for skunk(though it will apply to those as well) but also our carts. We reserve the right to withhold sales of our games from anyone we deem a potential problem to the development and distribution of any games. After Mighty Frog™ there will be no more unserialized releases from us. There will be only one place to order from. Here as a registered 100 post user of JSII. This will be done for ease of tracking purposes and I appologize to anyone else on the other site forums that will suffer as a result. Any release after Might Frog will be subject to rigorous anti-pirate testes before it gets released. Mighty Frog™ WILL be the last CD release due to the easily copyable nature of that medium. No more Jag carts as you know them either. The case will be the same and only the case. The cost will no doubt rise as a result due to the new needed anti-theft hardware. Sorry folks, I hate to inconvienience those that do not deserve to be treated like irresponsible creeps because some OTHER people actually are but I can't see any more games being copied weeks after its released either. There are going to be EXTREMELY rare exceptions to these rules based on MY judgement and my discretion. I will not weigh these decisions lighty either. Mad Bodies™ is now discontinued as well due to the unfortunate use of an unauthorized mod. I do not wish to further damage Mr. Gillet or use his property for any other purposes, unauthorized or otherwise. Also no more multiple copies. Gorf @ 3DSSS, LLC

[Fadest]

This made me laugh, there's a guy actually worried about the ten Jaguar users in the whole of Europe

I'm not sure this is really pertinent or related to this topic.

This is Gorf's own opinion at the instant he wrote this, and only a part of an hypothetical problem, not the whole.

 

In fact, I fully agree with AtariOwl approach. In my opinion, there is a kind of war only if you want to see one.

If you have a look under the radar, you may find nice guys working silently, and often helping each other.

We cannot resume the Jaguar community to 2 or 3 guys louder than other. There is no problem with them, they are certainly nice guys, but if everyone concentrate only on them, there is a distortion where the whole part of the community, probably as interesting or maybe more that this small fraction, remains hidden.

[SubQMod]

I hope Curt does not leave the source code to bitrot as he says. I for one have appreciated the releases that Curt has made and have made as best use of them as I can.

 

Regarding Curt's comments regarding openess and working together. As Owl has already mentioned,

a lot of people helped me to get SMAC/SLN into a state for release and as I promised at that release point I also released the source. I'm working on other projects for the Jaguar now and these will be released also. Some of the people I have worked with are classed as Pariah's in the community, others sit quitely in the background only posting occassionaly in community forums - my view of these people is as friends and for the most part genuine fans of the Jaguar system. I may not always agree with their politics or how they approach issues but I will support them if required.

 

I'm rambling and not really sure what I am trying to say - Basically, there are a core of genuine fans and developers out there trying to push the system and keep its profile high by good promotion (although recent events have damaged this). This for me is a fantastic hobby providing hours of enjoyment. I just hope it continues in the community and we do not lose Curt's support.....

[frenchman]

This made me laugh, there's a guy actually worried about the ten Jaguar users in the whole of Europe

I'm not sure this is really pertinent or related to this topic.

This is Gorf's own opinion at the instant he wrote this, and only a part of an hypothetical problem, not the whole.

 

In fact, I fully agree with AtariOwl approach. In my opinion, there is a kind of war only if you want to see one.

If you have a look under the radar, you may find nice guys working silently, and often helping each other.

We cannot resume the Jaguar community to 2 or 3 guys louder than other. There is no problem with them, they are certainly nice guys, but if everyone concentrate only on them, there is a distortion where the whole part of the community, probably as interesting or maybe more that this small fraction, remains hidden.

 

I know, but the funny thing is.....next to China and SA, USA are the highest on the list when pirating .....eg film, software, video games

[Pocket]

I have to agree with everything of what Curt said. I have always hoped that concerned people would grow up, but more than ten years have passed and sadly, nothing changed.

 

Luckily, we still have the Jag events (Jagfests, Atari Connexion, etc.) to remind us the community is full of cool people who are willing to work with each others. On Internet, we have a few crybabies, they are only a few of them, but they cry so loud they damage everything.

[MCHufnagel]

I still have a Jag, so I still visit this forum from time to time. And Curt is absolutely right in everything he said. I find it highly amusing that some people who are developing games (or say they are ) for the Jag feel so smugly superior to us mere humans who don't know how to code. I would like to see some of these guys (the smug ones) come out of hiding and answer Curt on his charges.

 

I'll be honest, I don't see the point in buying new games for the Jag @ $60+ that aren't any better (and often times worse) then what people are giving away for the pc. Why give financial support to such a dysfunctional community?

[Chickybaby]

No this is not JS2 nor is this thread related to piracy or name calling.

People's opinions also should be respected and can be discussed in a constructive adult manner when people take the time to think and preview their posts.

 

It has been spoken many times to please be careful in the last couple days especially and you can thank those individuals for this thread being locked (before it turns into yet another brawl). I am also sorry to those who are respectful because are suffering due to a small minority. This is also a public warning to anyone who wants to go off topic in the Jaguar Forum especially now. It is not recommended.

 

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