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My idea for the perfect NES clone


Joe_Cracker

What makes the perfect NES clone?  

23 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you believe that a the original 6502 is better then some NOAC chip?

    • Yes, it means 100% of software is compatable
    • No, it can only be seen in original hardware
    • Yes, it means all accessories are compatable
    • Yes, Because an NOAC chip has limits.
    • No, because it will only support NTSC titles.
    • Yes, as long as both NTSC and PAL titles are supported.
  2. 2. Do you perfer original hardware or clones?

  3. 3. Would you buy a clone that has both NTSC and ATSC out?


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I have been doing research into why every single NES clone on the market cannot play all original software titles. It's simple, even unlicesed software titles can be played in original hardware plus there is a flash cart called the powerpak that is said to only work in original software and that one clone(Retro Duo 2.0) can play it. Because of clones, new software titles are being released on carts for the first time in over 10 years since Nintendo discontinued the NES. That is very rare, not even the Sega Master System or the Atari 7800 is seeing new titles.

 

One thing I've seen is this and that is simple. NOAC chips are limited to a select number of mappers that is programed into the NOAC, but there is a way around it. I am challenging anyone who can re-create the original NES's 6502 chip to make one chip, mass-produce it and sell it to everyone who makes NES clones and do it cheaper. The 6502 that was in the NES and the NES2 was known as the Ricoh 2A03 in NTSC regions and the Ricoh 2A07 in PAL regions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2A03

 

A poll question that I have that asks if you would buy a clone with ATSC out makes sense. The original NES model had both RCA out and an RF out. If you can make a motherboard that mimics the original motherboard, make a shell that is the same size, the RCA out will be for NTSC out and the RF out will be for ATSC out. The ATSC out, I would like to do a duel-mono, the NTSC out and this is well known that duel-mono can be done via an RCA splitter. This should also be done with PAL versions as well. This is plane and simple, in the original carts it's already a digital signal but it's not ATSC compatable, their is an analoging process that takes place in real time and if this can be done with ATSC then it would be great and give clones a longer shelf live.

 

There is also another problem, to find an original NES cleaning kit that has not been used is rare. Older boards inside the carts are heavily prown to dust and oxidation. The newer boards in these new cart releases are more immune. Someone will tell you that a motherboard made today is less prown to these problems then a motherboard made in the 1980's and 1970's.

Edited by Joe_Cracker
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NOAC chips are limited to a select number of mappers that is programed into the NOAC

This is not the reason. NOACs have no knowledge of mappers at all, much like the original hardware doesn't. The reason some games don't work is because some functions of certain complex mappers rely on specific orders of memory fetches (the order in which bytes are read from video memory), which is not followed by NOACs. NOACs don't replicate the workings of the video system down to every little detail, which means they might read the bytes in different order and a different number of times, and since accesses don't happen as mappers expect, they get lost and can't function properly.

 

Mappers are only emulated when ROM images are used instead of actual carts, as in certain DVD players or media players that load games from CD or memory cards. Those don't use NOACs, they simply use software emulators (that are usually not very good). When actual carts are used, there is no reason not to use the mapper that's in it. In fact, it would be impossible to read the entire ROMs without knowing what the mapper is.

 

I am challenging anyone who can re-create the original NES's 6502 chip to make one chip, mass-produce it and sell it to everyone who makes NES clones and do it cheaper.

If someone could do that they wouldn't just be waiting for your challenge, would they? Sorry, but that's not much of an incentive.

 

The 6502 that was in the NES and the NES2 was known as the Ricoh 2A03 in NTSC regions and the Ricoh 2A07 in PAL regions.

The 6502 part of this chip isn't the problem, as the 6502 is a very well know CPU and I believe it can be replicated exactly without problems. The thing is that this chip is also responsible for the audio, a department in which clones are known to fail hard. However, NES audio has been very well documented, and shouldn't be hard to replicate correctly. Plus, I don't think sound issues would cause compatibility problems, they'd just cause games to sound wrong.

 

I believe that the biggest problem is with the PPU, not the CPU. The NES PPU is a custom chip, so in order to figure out exactly how it works and what it does during every damn clock cycle, it would have to be reverse engineered very carefully. I believe most of it has been, and that the knowledge of the community is enough to make something much better than the common NOACs.

 

For some reason, no one feels like going through all of the trouble that is replicating an entire game console. There have been some attempts in the past, which as far as I know were better than the NOACs (look at this one for example: http://www.tripoint.org/kevtris/Projects/console/index.html). However, all projects I know of have been abandoned or never got off the ground. It does not surprise me, considering how complicated this is.

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new software titles are being released on carts for the first time in over 10 years since Nintendo discontinued the NES. That is very rare, not even the Sega Master System or the Atari 7800 is seeing new titles.

 

 

This is when I knew to stop giving a hoot. You obviously don't know much about the homebrew scene for the SMS or the 7800. Both systems have seen many more homebrew releases than the nes.

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new software titles are being released on carts for the first time in over 10 years since Nintendo discontinued the NES. That is very rare, not even the Sega Master System or the Atari 7800 is seeing new titles.

 

 

This is when I knew to stop giving a hoot. You obviously don't know much about the homebrew scene for the SMS or the 7800. Both systems have seen many more homebrew releases than the nes.

 

Is any of this homebrew being sold on carts for these systems? If not, the only way they can get real attention is if their ported to the NES, but just for fun name us a few homebrew SMS and 7800 titles so we'll know, but that doesn't change the fact that in it's run the NES held 92 to 95% of the gaming market, long before Nintendo would have strong compition like Sega and then later Sony and Microsoft in the console market. From what I hear there still making games for the Atari 2600.

 

The 6502 part of this chip isn't the problem, as the 6502 is a very well know CPU and I believe it can be replicated exactly without problems. The thing is that this chip is also responsible for the audio, a department in which clones are known to fail hard. However, NES audio has been very well documented, and shouldn't be hard to replicate correctly. Plus, I don't think sound issues would cause compatibility problems, they'd just cause games to sound wrong.

 

Well the NES naturally carries 5 levels of sound that create the NES mono track. Some clones use this at an attempt to create a sterio output. In some clones the sound will be off because some mappers actually create an aditional 6th or 7th level of sound.

Edited by Joe_Cracker
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Welcome to AtariAge.

 

I don't quite understand your poll, especially the first question. "Do you believe that a the original 6502 is better then some NOAC chip?" better for what? An NES clone? NOAC hands down, since the 6502 doesn't have any of the NES' video or sound hardware...

 

Is any of this homebrew being sold on carts for these systems? If not, the only way they can get real attention is if their ported to the NES, but just for fun name us a few homebrew SMS and 7800 titles so we'll know, but that doesn't change the fact that in it's run the NES held 92 to 95% of the gaming market, long before Nintendo would have strong compition like Sega and then later Sony and Microsoft in the console market. From what I hear there still making games for the Atari 2600.

 

I would say there are probably more 7800 homebrews released on cartridge than the NES. I don't follow or really care about the SMS 'scene', but I'm sure there are several homebrews released on cartridge. The 2600 has over 100.

 

I am challenging anyone who can re-create the original NES's 6502 chip to make one chip, mass-produce it and sell it to everyone who makes NES clones and do it cheaper.

 

It is obvious to me that you don't know much of what this involves. Perhaps you should do some research ;)

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Is any of this homebrew being sold on carts for these systems? If not, the only way they can get real attention is if their ported to the NES, but just for fun name us a few homebrew SMS and 7800 titles so we'll know, but that doesn't change the fact that in it's run the NES held 92 to 95% of the gaming market, long before Nintendo would have strong compition like Sega and then later Sony and Microsoft in the console market. From what I hear there still making games for the Atari 2600.

 

There were three Atari 7800 homebrew games announced on cartridge on the front page of this site just recently.

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In some clones the sound will be off because some mappers actually create an aditional 6th or 7th level of sound.

Yes, there are mappers that generate extra sound, but that's not the reason, NOACs actually do get the basic channels wrong, they do sound weird compared to a real NES. I'd have to agree that currently you don't really know much about this stuff, and should do a lot more research.

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In some clones the sound will be off because some mappers actually create an aditional 6th or 7th level of sound.

Yes, there are mappers that generate extra sound, but that's not the reason, NOACs actually do get the basic channels wrong, they do sound weird compared to a real NES. I'd have to agree that currently you don't really know much about this stuff, and should do a lot more research.

 

I know they may sound wrong because of the chips inside the clones that reproduce the Mono or the specialized sterio track won't sound like it would on original software. I can see from what your saying that once we have a prefert reproduced 6502, we also need to look into the video and audio output problems. My NES Rom Maker software project is designed to make the perfect clone but making it easier for people to make NES software. I need to have a perfect clone because retrozone's powerpak it the best method to test a game other then some PC, Mac or console based emulator.

 

There is also another problem, dusty and oxidydized cartitages can damage a clone. My Retro Duo has become a victum to such as said, so I can't test my powerpak on it because it's the only clone that has an NOAC that can play it. Would anyone of you know if the powerpak uses a mapper that didn't exist until 2006?

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Nowadays it's not so hard to find original NES consoles in good shape, I think you should think about buying one.

 

Would anyone of you know if the powerpak uses a mapper that didn't exist until 2006?

I'm not sure why the PowerPak doesn't work on clones, but I know it doesn't use a single mapper. It reconfigures itself to simulate different mappers as different games are loaded.

 

I have one, and it indeed doesn't work with any of my clones. It doesn't even get to the menu, it does absolutely nothing.

 

But it shouldn't matter when a mapper was created, just how much it relies on operations that are not performed by NOACs.

Edited by tokumaru
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Nowadays it's not so hard to find original NES consoles in good shape, I think you should think about buying one.

 

Would anyone of you know if the powerpak uses a mapper that didn't exist until 2006?

I'm not sure why the PowerPak doesn't work on clones, but I know it doesn't use a single mapper. It reconfigures itself to simulate different mappers as different games are loaded.

 

I have one, and it indeed doesn't work with any of my clones. It doesn't even get to the menu, it does absolutely nothing.

 

But it shouldn't matter when a mapper was created, just how much it relies on operations that are not performed by NOACs.

 

I have an original NES console, but it's 72pin connector has been replaced and it's board has been refurbished, I use an RCA splitter to get duel mono. If the powerpak only works on the original NES then that limits how many can be made. That's one of the mistakes that Atari made with the E.T. game back in the day, they made 3x more carts then their where 2600s in existance, but while the movie was a hit the game was a flop.

 

I came here because I wanted to check on the pole, I see that their is an even split for "Would you buy a clone that has both NTSC and ATSC out?" I done the research on the new broadcasting standard and this is what it's benefits would be for new NES clones.

 

ATSC takes the video signal and turns it to MPEG2(640x480 480i) video instead of the simple analog video it's really 320i for NTSC out but the TV reconizes it as a 480i(don't ask me why). For sound, the format is AC-3(Dolby Digital) in a sterio output but if put in the NES, it should be duel mono. There is also the option of the mp3 sound format that only needs a single mono track. The reason why I'm asking that future clones have this is because the newer televisons that are on the market all have ATSC input and there a few left coming out with NTSC input.

Edited by Joe_Cracker
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Nowadays it's not so hard to find original NES consoles in good shape, I think you should think about buying one.

 

Would anyone of you know if the powerpak uses a mapper that didn't exist until 2006?

I'm not sure why the PowerPak doesn't work on clones, but I know it doesn't use a single mapper. It reconfigures itself to simulate different mappers as different games are loaded.

 

I have one, and it indeed doesn't work with any of my clones. It doesn't even get to the menu, it does absolutely nothing.

 

But it shouldn't matter when a mapper was created, just how much it relies on operations that are not performed by NOACs.

 

I have an original NES console, but it's 72pin connector has been replaced and it's board has been refurbished, I use an RCA splitter to get duel mono. If the powerpak only works on the original NES then that limits how many can be made. That's one of the mistakes that Atari made with the E.T. game back in the day, they made 3x more carts then their where 2600s in existance, but while the movie was a hit the game was a flop.

 

I came here because I wanted to check on the pole, I see that their is an even split for "Would you buy a clone that has both NTSC and ATSC out?" I done the research on the new broadcasting standard and this is what it's benefits would be for new NES clones.

 

ATSC takes the video signal and turns it to MPEG2(640x480 480i) video instead of the simple analog video it's really 320i for NTSC out but the TV reconizes it as a 480i(don't ask me why). For sound, the format is AC-3(Dolby Digital) in a sterio output but if put in the NES, it should be duel mono. There is also the option of the mp3 sound format that only needs a single mono track. The reason why I'm asking that future clones have this is because the newer televisons that are on the market all have ATSC input and there a few left coming out with NTSC input, there also said to be a $50 dollar price tag per unit, not the console itself but if it has ATSC output there would be a $50 dollar licensing fee because unlike the NES, the patents for ATSC are still in good standing.

Edited by Joe_Cracker
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This post was not well thought out at all. NO research could have been done due the the wide (and wrong) assumptions. I received a homebrew 7800 cart in the mail just last week. Also, if we needed 6502s, there is no reason to "re-create" them as you can buy BRAND NEW ones right here: http://www.westerndesigncenter.com/wdc/w65c02s-chip.cfm

 

We have used these chips to repair broken consoles and computers with no issues.

 

Would I buy a 100% clone? yes. Just get someone with a grasp of the english language and capable of doing actual research to make it....

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  • 2 weeks later...

This post was not well thought out at all. NO research could have been done due the the wide (and wrong) assumptions. I received a homebrew 7800 cart in the mail just last week. Also, if we needed 6502s, there is no reason to "re-create" them as you can buy BRAND NEW ones right here: http://www.westerndesigncenter.com/wdc/w65c02s-chip.cfm

 

We have used these chips to repair broken consoles and computers with no issues.

 

Would I buy a 100% clone? yes. Just get someone with a grasp of the english language and capable of doing actual research to make it....

 

Nice so which one am I looking for? Which one is the right one for the NES?

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This post was not well thought out at all. NO research could have been done due the the wide (and wrong) assumptions. I received a homebrew 7800 cart in the mail just last week. Also, if we needed 6502s, there is no reason to "re-create" them as you can buy BRAND NEW ones right here: http://www.westerndesigncenter.com/wdc/w65c02s-chip.cfm

 

We have used these chips to repair broken consoles and computers with no issues.

 

Would I buy a 100% clone? yes. Just get someone with a grasp of the english language and capable of doing actual research to make it....

 

Nice so which one am I looking for? Which one is the right one for the NES?

 

None of them. The NES '6502' has built in sound hardware, so you can not replace it with a normal 6502.

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The Kevtendo is kind of a sad situation. The current Famichip is considered Good Enough by most people, and it's price can't ever be beaten, even though it's quality is subpar. Nobody will ever be able to front the money to replace it/fix it's bugs, at least not until the current supply runs out (which will probably be never).

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  • 2 weeks later...

This post was not well thought out at all. NO research could have been done due the the wide (and wrong) assumptions. I received a homebrew 7800 cart in the mail just last week. Also, if we needed 6502s, there is no reason to "re-create" them as you can buy BRAND NEW ones right here: http://www.westerndesigncenter.com/wdc/w65c02s-chip.cfm

 

We have used these chips to repair broken consoles and computers with no issues.

 

Would I buy a 100% clone? yes. Just get someone with a grasp of the english language and capable of doing actual research to make it....

 

Hey, I typed in "RP2A03" on google and this was the first thing that came up. http://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=RP2A03

 

Is this what I'm looking for?

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The way I see it is if you want the real thing get the real thing. The NES was sold by the millions and it's pretty reliable. I can go into my local surplus/used electronics depot and they have mountains of NES systems. They don't ask much for them either. Yes you may have to address the 72-pin connector by either cleaning it or replacing it but it's easy and cheap. It's not cost effective for someone to produce a new NES that isn't a NOAC design. Having all the hardware or equivalent hardware is too expensive. I think you could easily find a working NES, fix up the contacts and do that cheaper than anyone could produce a new console with full hardware compatibility.

Edited by MN12BIRD
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This post was not well thought out at all. NO research could have been done due the the wide (and wrong) assumptions. I received a homebrew 7800 cart in the mail just last week. Also, if we needed 6502s, there is no reason to "re-create" them as you can buy BRAND NEW ones right here: http://www.westerndesigncenter.com/wdc/w65c02s-chip.cfm

 

We have used these chips to repair broken consoles and computers with no issues.

 

Would I buy a 100% clone? yes. Just get someone with a grasp of the english language and capable of doing actual research to make it....

 

Hey, I typed in "RP2A03" on google and this was the first thing that came up. http://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=RP2A03

 

Is this what I'm looking for?

 

The NES uses a RP2A07A. They are no longer in production. Even if they were, there is more to the NES than just it's CPU.

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The NES uses a RP2A07A. They are no longer in production. Even if they were, there is more to the NES than just it's CPU.

 

Your talking about the PAL models that where sold in Europe. "They" used the RP2A07. The NTSC models in the US and Japan used the RP2A03. The website also states that the chip was also used in some arcade cabinents at the time. Not to go off-topic but believe it or not, they still make Vynel LPs. Last year, the soundtrack for "The Dark Knight" was released on Vynel. True story.

 

UPDATE:

Ok, I'll do you one better. I replaced the board in my original NES with one that was refurbished, now this is a picture of the original board from the NTSC model. Just take a look at the picture then download it and put in some circles and arrows telling us what everything is and what it does and how it works.

 

6374e454ae.jpg

Edited by Joe_Cracker
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Ok, I'll do you one better. I replaced the board in my original NES with one that was refurbished, now this is a picture of the original board from the NTSC model. Just take a look at the picture then download it and put in some circles and arrows telling us what everything is and what it does and how it works.

I'll just call out what I see...

 

Left side going down:

74LS139 - probably used for address decoding

RP2A03 - the CPU, and it has the sound hardware built in, right?

6116 - CPU RAM

 

Second column, below the expansion port:

RP2C02 - that's the VDP chip, right?

74LS373 - some sort of input buffer, maybe for talking to the VDP

MCM2018 - video RAM

 

Third column:

40H368 - for the controller port I/O

40H368 - for the controller port I/O

the resistor packs are also for the controller port I/O

74HC04 - it's just a bunch of inverter gates, could be used for anything

and then there's the lockout chip, with pin 4 ripped out

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Ok, I'll do you one better. I replaced the board in my original NES with one that was refurbished, now this is a picture of the original board from the NTSC model. Just take a look at the picture then download it and put in some circles and arrows telling us what everything is and what it does and how it works.

I'll just call out what I see...

 

Left side going down:

74LS139 - probably used for address decoding

RP2A03 - the CPU, and it has the sound hardware built in, right?

6116 - CPU RAM

 

Second column, below the expansion port:

RP2C02 - that's the VDP chip, right?

74LS373 - some sort of input buffer, maybe for talking to the VDP

MCM2018 - video RAM

 

Third column:

40H368 - for the controller port I/O

40H368 - for the controller port I/O

the resistor packs are also for the controller port I/O

74HC04 - it's just a bunch of inverter gates, could be used for anything

and then there's the lockout chip, with pin 4 ripped out

 

Ok, that sounds about right. I still want someone to point out everyting. Oh and Bruce, the name of the lockout chip is 10NES.

 

Also, when I said circles and arrows this is not what I meant but this is what I've been thinking of how you build a clone with ATSC output capabilites. It would still have NTSC but I'm going to use part of my picture of the original board as an example.

 

d59d4b3e4a.jpg

Edited by Joe_Cracker
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ATSC output

Ummmm, yeah. You do realize that it's not as simple as throwing a simple RF modulator circuit onto a video output, right? It requires a full MPEG-2 encoder at the very least. And as a result, you still end up with a picture that has less detail than if you hooked it up to component inputs. Also, the modulation is a lot more complicated than simple AM/FM.

 

You also induce lag (on the order of a whole second) because of the MPEG encoding and decoding, which would make gameplay rather difficult. I remember a few years ago I could tune in the analog and digital of a TV channel, and the digital channel noticeably lagged behind.

 

Oh, and have you actually gone looking for an "ATSC modulator" yet?

 

Trust me, baseband video inputs are NOT going away any time soon, even with HDMI infesting everything these days.

 

RF modulators existed in the first place ONLY because of the lack of baseband inputs in TV sets back in the '70s, since there wasn't anything to hook up other than an antenna. Once VCRs (and stereo TV) took off, they became standard.

Edited by Bruce Tomlin
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