Mclaneinc Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Jon, you ever thought of using a CPU accelerator? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 You seem unable to decide whether you think it'll run well or not on a stock machine? I expected a couple of digs from the sponsors, but let's assume Ataris run at 1.79MHz for the moment, eh? Haha not unable... but I know myself... once that masterpiece is under my fingertips, I'm pretty sure I want to increase the speed of my atari 8bit -> and then I break with my 'only original atari 8bit rule'... but anyway, let's get back ontopic. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 Jon, you ever thought of using a CPU accelerator? I have not. Tell me: are such things available, and where might I purchase one? I'm thinking of rewriting the GUI in C using CC65. 20MHz should mean the code won't need to be optimised too much. What I'd really like to see is support for Intel Core processors in the A8. I think we could do something really useful and practical then. Sigh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Re: schedule, CPU lacking juice, and usability... While it is true there isn't enough to execute all tasks at speed, having them execute at all brings the user the ability to manage what is possible and be productive. It is a huge deal just to be able to have things running, whatever context and state being maintained, etc... Watching a video is a high demand activity for both the computer and user. Seeing GoL update slowly isn't a big deal as the user attention isn't really there either, but the overall context is. Compare that to a freeze, or having to run one app, then the other, and so forth. It is a huge gain. @Podatron: Cool beans, thanks. Re: Faster CPU I love how it isn't being done. That decision has impacted this project in a few ways, all good. It is lean, mean, and more capable, give what we see now, than I know I expected. It pays off to maximize the stock CPU and RAM, as much as is possible for the latter. Expanded / upgraded systems will be that much better for it all in the end, which just adds to the sweetness of it all. I don't know about you guys, but I have learned som interesting things following this project. In particular, I see how assembly can work and the mapping of higher level tasks can be really simple when things are thought through. IMHO, that is one of the more impressive goings on here. By simple, I really mean lean in terms of number of instructions and data required. Re: Democracy Al, I have been consistently impressed over the years. This crowd has a lot of texture, just in where people come from, culture, socio-economic status, education, interests. Frankly, it is amazing to me it all runs as well as it does. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariGeezer Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Jon, when you make the next demo available, any chance you could include a version that can flash into U1MB or Incognito's GUI slot? I think it would be really cool if people could show-it-off at user group meetings and alike shows... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 Oh yeah... the demo I promised a month or more back. It's no problem at all to make a build for Ultimate or Incognito. The only reason I held off doing so is that the GUI slot needs to (ideally) act like a bootable cart. I know Candle's got that on his to-do list (along with many other more important real-life things which have nothing to do with this project, no doubt), but in the meantime I guess we can fudge something so we reboot the machine from the SDX prompt with the desired boot bank switched in. I doubt many people would want to flash the SDX slot with the GUI (which would then boot), although those 32 8KB banks sure look enticing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodatron Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 The fact that the second thread of the game with a lower priority basically stops when a video is playing shows that the CPU does not have enough juice to keep the task running. And that is the whole point of my argument here, sure in theory multitasking is possible but the question is whether it will be usable. If you were using a modern multitasking system would you accept the total halt of the lower priority thread, I am sure sure you would have said "it's time to upgrade", so i still think the Rapidus upgrade will do wonders for the GUI. Erm... no absolutely not. Do you remember converting CDs/WAVs to MP3 files or Seti@Home tasks in the late 90ies on a 32bit PC? It took hours, but the cool thing was, that you could give such tasks a low priority, and your system was still fully available always - no delays anyway, which is really cool and which is the base of the A8-MT-OS as well, as Jon described and demonstrated. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kskunk Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 FJC - Just wanted to say this thread has been a steady source of inspiration for me, since the first time I saw your GUI demo running live in front of an audience at Atari Party in California in 2013. It was a big crowd pleaser! As a programmer who cut my teeth on an Atari 800, I spent the whole drive home thinking about how to apply modern techniques to such limited hardware. I'm in awe. Anyway, I'm very grateful for your dedication. I know it's just a hobby, but you're making the 8-bit fandom a better place. Thank you and keep up the good work! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEditor Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) No offense to FJC but could the two of you take the pissing match private. I come here to see updates about the GUI not people acting like children. I am sure I am not the only one thinking it. The project is amazing in that it is being written on technology from 30 years ago so give it it's due. If you don't like it, great that is your right. If you think you can do better do it. Put up or shut up as they say. I personally can't wait for the release as it is amazing what is being squeezed out of the technology. Flame responses to this post will be ignored, so don't bother. /steps off soapbox Edited October 29, 2014 by TheEditor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I personally don't believe that FJC is involved in a "pissing contest". He is being harassed by a malicious person who has an obvious mental problem, and is simply defending himself from these unwarranted attacks. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) The Editor must not read much... FlashJazzCat is not only the person who started the thread but is also the developer of the GUI itself, he can't be in a pissing match because it is all his and the presence of a trolling twit is not acceptable...... ALL of the posts NOT dealing with the GUI project and it's updates should be in the completely seperated thread listed here! http://atariage.com/forums/topic/231208-gui-philosophies/ please take all of the theory and if you want to call it 'pissing matches' to the theory thread and allow the NEW GUI for the 8 bit thread to be used for the news and discussion of the new gui. Take all the theory and nonsense to the above link! Edited October 29, 2014 by _The Doctor__ 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoSch Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 If you were using a modern multitasking system would you accept the total halt of the lower priority thread, I am sure sure you would have said "it's time to upgrade", so i still think the Rapidus upgrade will do wonders for the GUI. Yes, I would. That's the whole point of the lower priority setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 Kyle and the The Doc said everything that needs saying. I think the situation's pretty obvious. Can we move on now? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 MADS has suddenly started being extremely taciturn: This turned out to be a missing label error. Not sure if the compiler's becoming overwhelmed, but it's making debugging a pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodatron Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Is this your biggest source code ever? (larger than Last Word?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 Is this your biggest source code ever? (larger than Last Word?) I think so. TLW must have been around 12-15,000 lines. This is now about 23,000 lines long. I guess there's another c. 20,000 to come. It may not be sheer code size upsetting the compiler, but the various banking regions, local ranges, and macros requiring several passes. I'd better check I'm using the very latest version of MADS. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Z Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 That's a good thing... most studies on usability show that users perceive speed more from the UI than the app. As long as the part that interacts with the user is fast, they'll feel it's faster than the same app running twice as fast, but with a slower interface. That's particularly true with menus... I myself cuss at menus that take 10 to 20 secs to render on Windows or linux on my 3.5GHz AMD64 while nodding in satisfaction at the menu popping up almost instantly on my 266MHz Celeron running AROS. It just FEELS faster, so it must BE faster... at least, that's how it makes you feel. well, I would take this in a bit of a different direction. I think in many cases, we don't perceive faster UI to be faster, it IS faster. My reasoning behind this is that often the application is stuck waiting for user input anyway, and in these cases slow UI extend the wait time. So much of the time it takes an application to run is wasted waiting for the user and slow UI increases the waiting for the user. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Willy Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I have not. Tell me: are such things available, and where might I purchase one? I'm thinking of rewriting the GUI in C using CC65. 20MHz should mean the code won't need to be optimised too much. What I'd really like to see is support for Intel Core processors in the A8. I think we could do something really useful and practical then. Sigh... Might I suggest an AMD A8 APU? A cpu and gpu all in one... perfect for accelerating both the processing and graphics of your A8! At least you're keeping a sense of humor about the whole issue. Just keep on as you are... you're doing great! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 Might I suggest an AMD A8 APU? A cpu and gpu all in one... perfect for accelerating both the processing and graphics of your A8! And ironically, that's the very AMD chip powering my desktop PC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Willy Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 And ironically, that's the very AMD chip powering my desktop PC. Funny. I'm using an A6. They're cheap as hell. The main thing these APUs need is both ram sockets filled to allows for dual fetch. Otherwise the graphics bog the CPU down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 Yeah, I'm running a discreet card now anyway for OS X, but those A series APUs offer great bang for buck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jk40001 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Spend more time and read through before You post anything. Besides, You expressed interest in my Incognito card some time ago, then You did not even bother to reply. So You obviously need Some behavior classes too..instead of lecturing anyone here. No offense to FJC but could the two of you take the pissing match private. I come here to see updates about the GUI not people acting like children. I am sure I am not the only one thinking it. The project is amazing in that it is being written on technology from 30 years ago so give it it's due. If you don't like it, great that is your right. If you think you can do better do it. Put up or shut up as they say. I personally can't wait for the release as it is amazing what is being squeezed out of the technology. Flame responses to this post will be ignored, so don't bother. /steps off soapbox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) It may not be sheer code size upsetting the compiler, but the various banking regions, local ranges, and macros requiring several passes. I'd better check I'm using the very latest version of MADS. Nice. Every missing label now results in "The compiler process ended with return code 2" and no indication of what or where the error is other than some console output which is chopped off half way through the line. Back to Windows to see if the problem's the same there... Edited October 31, 2014 by flashjazzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted November 1, 2014 Author Share Posted November 1, 2014 Problem doesn't appear to exist in the Windows version and seems related to Free Pascal Compiler code optimisation when MADS is compiled for OS X. Looks like compiling MADS without -v fixed it. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Willy Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 @flashjazzcat: Have you seen this? https://plus.google.com/+AlanCoxLinux/posts/a2jAP7Pz1gj It's a post on Fuzix by Alan Cox, a kind of unix for 8-bit systems that runs in as little as 32K ram/32K rom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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