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New GUI for the Atari 8-bit


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#3726 flashjazzcat ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:35 AM

Is there any developer documentation available for GOS? I would like to create a subset of ResEdit as an Eclipse extension.(see https://developer.ap...tReference.pdf)
 
I need to know if GOS has a resource system with identifiers, and data structures/binary format for include files.


The resource format is very similar to that of SymbOS (deliberately so), so in the absence of formal documentation while I work on this thing in fits and starts, you might check out Prodatron's project.
 

Any plans for NewGUI-VBXE??? With colors and hires?


Last year I converted the display code into modular drivers running in RAM, so yes: it's possible to write a VBXE driver which will completely replace the ANTIC driver. Colour registers have sufficient bit width to handle 256 colours.

Edited by flashjazzcat, Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:35 AM.


#3727 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:21 AM

As coding lately my VBXE (shame it was in my house for more than 7 years) I would appreciate a VBXE edition. :)

#3728 flashjazzcat ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:28 AM

As coding lately my VBXE (shame it was in my house for more than 7 years) I would appreciate a VBXE edition. :)


Perhaps by then you will write the driver. :)

#3729 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:44 AM

me? only with embedded rotozooming voxel flight 3d engine...



#3730 Matej OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:27 AM

Heaven than include PS VR googles driver too!



#3731 Joey Z OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:54 PM

Perhaps by then you will write the driver. :)

I already have dibs on that ;)



#3732 flashjazzcat ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:20 PM

I already have dibs on that ;)


Of course... My apologies. :)

#3733 576XE OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:35 AM

Don't be a perfect perfectionalists. FRIENDS!

Do you are really think that Bill Gates ever thinked about you are really thinking?

ez



#3734 vidak OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:47 AM

Definitely don't be a perfectionist. It's the same with doing a PhD, like mine. There will always always be room for improvement. It's my belief that nothing is ever perfect enough. I always say, "near enough is good enough".

#3735 MrFish OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:53 AM

Don't be a perfect perfectionalists. FRIENDS!

Do you are really think that Bill Gates ever thinked about you are really thinking?

 

Bill Gates had two key elements that don't exist here: large sums of money (to fund development teams), and the promise of larger sums of money once the product was finished.

 

Those two key elements are what rapid development of large, complex projects is about.

 

I'll add to that a third (an obsticle he didn't have): Windows was never coded in pure machine language (AFAIK). It's a very significant factor when you consider the size of the project.

Ask Jon how many lines of code he's at now. And when you're done with that, ask him how many lines he's thrown away...

 

[Edit:] I guess I'll add a fourth: Windows was only a graphical shell running on top of DOS, up until Windows '95. With the initial release of Windows being in 1985, that's 10 years of thinking (not counting Windows 1.0 development time, which supposedly started in '82) before producing a real OS (if it even was at that point).


Edited by MrFish, Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:38 AM.


#3736 vidak OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:57 AM

Also Bill Gates was a crook who screwed people

#3737 576XE OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:59 AM

As I can remember there was Seattle Computer Products - investigation company which worked on 16 bit processor cards and never sold computers.

For testing it urgently needed software for 8086 and have some consultations with Digital Research about porting good old CP/? OS to 16 bit.

At a time there was only 2 working exemplairs of the cards. and Seattle Computer Products could not give even ONE of them to well known DR.

Bad luck!

 

Also Seattle Computer Products has a very talented programmer Tim Patersson who wrote QDOS (Quick and Dirty OS. It's his naming!) because of only 2 weeks of code writing and after some improvements 86DOS.

 

Kill Gates knew that real money lays in IBM and about rumors concerning IBM's wish to made 16 bit Personal Computer!

 

As I can remember IBM has PC-DOS at a time but could not force it to work.

There was a simple solution to contact IBM and offer them Ready to work OS ;)

 

Thus he made 2 things consequently:

1. He bought from Seattle Computer Products ONE Legal Plain Client license for 86DOS. (Remember this DOS was only testing environment!)

2. He bought from Seattle Computer Products a programmer for polishing soft but now for IBM PC.

This programmer was obviously Tim Patersson.

 

Tim rewrite code for PC even improved buffering and MS-DOS was born!

From this time we all know what means License Fee!

 

ez



#3738 flashjazzcat ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:20 AM

Speaking of licenses, I'm still tempted to go for long FAT filename support but will likely end up following the Linux approach and not maintaining the 8.3 alias since it was that aspect which infringed Microsoft's patent. But when does that patent expire?

#3739 576XE OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:59 AM

Hi there, Dear FJC.

Glad to CU again. :)

 

Do you really think that long filenames is really needed?

 

I mean that the only need for this is to add to filename an info-metadata which can be placed in only one file on disk (I mean DIR-file). No more.

Noone want to type long text to call file on execution.

 

If you add only one global kbd shortcut to your env. everyone can read full info from meta!

I can not remember this from Norton Commander may be Ctrl+L

 

Another aspect is in the fact that 8.3 schema is too weak to complain even everyday purposes.

May be it's enough to use not 16 bytes for 8.3 record but 24 or 36 bytes to make record slightly more informative :)

 

Equivalently I hate as (very-informative-LISP-style-of -naming-program-variables) and ATARI-like naming of CIO EQUATES.

What's the hell is ICPTL (minus 1). No info for reading at all !

 

Please remember your programming experience and think that your personal naming is enough for ALL and it's enough for naming files too. :)

 

If you decide to use some another length then used in M$ I think it's enough to step away from their patent.

If you can explain the differences in ideas of course! You CAN!

 

Anyway I think that noone from M$ can say the data of license expiring IMHO.  :mad:

They want to sit on your neck FOREVER!

 

I can understand License Fee for Authors But NEVER for Dealers! May be just a little part of it.

 

But BG is only manager while TP is Creator!

Too bad too sad...

 

ALL THE BEST!



#3740 flashjazzcat ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:50 AM

Not necessarily "needed", but given all the code I've already written which handles long filenames, I thought it might be a nice feature. I could easily have a kill switch in the source code to disable LFNs in case of trouble. ;) Proportional or even fixed width (console) fonts make long filenames a little easier to cope with; perhaps it will be sufficient to make file selectors, etc, flexible enough to handle LFNs and worry about them later. I know from bitter experience with this project that throwing out an idea and designing code to omit a particular solution can be disastrous when one wishes to back-track later on. :)

#3741 576XE OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:26 AM

GOD!

I'm not a programmer at all ! Sorry !

 

You know better!!!

 

May be it's my English?

No mean!

 

As far as it's concern licenses it's a very deep swamp! You know this...

 

You are THE BEST!

And the first reason is that you are programming not for yourself but for croud.

 

I see it.

It is not given to all of programmers. Even at all !

 

I've seen one russian prog. They did ALL THE BEST but saying what to do...

No one could even imagine that

1 means working with Star Printers

2 means working with ...

And NO PROMPTS at all !

 

When users bought the program they was killed by death.

 

Who is the ONLY ONE reading mans?

Users?

 

No!

 

By the way I've worked with OS/2 and PC/2 mc'hines.

I can remember something...



#3742 Faicuai OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:36 AM

(...)

 

Kill Gates knew that real money lays in IBM and about rumors concerning IBM's wish to made 16 bit Personal Computer!

 

As I can remember IBM has PC-DOS at a time but could not force it to work.

There was a simple solution to contact IBM and offer them Ready to work OS ;)

 

Thus he made 2 things consequently:

1. He bought from Seattle Computer Products ONE Legal Plain Client license for 86DOS. (Remember this DOS was only testing environment!)

2. He bought from Seattle Computer Products a programmer for polishing soft but now for IBM PC.

This programmer was obviously Tim Patersson.

 

Tim rewrite code for PC even improved buffering and MS-DOS was born!

 

(...)

 

 

Just helping getting your story straight / complete (thus understanding the true genius of Bill and Paul):

 

  1. IBM *went to* (was not solicited) in a buying "spree" of the new operating system for the newly created IBM (in charge of Don Estridge, here in Boca Raton, Florida, and sponsored DIRECTLY by IBM's then CEO, who loved coming to Florida, and drink fresh orange juice).
  2. IBM first knocked the door of CP/M guys, with a suit-case and CONTRACT in-hand, for "quick signature"... CPM answer? "Gents, we are sorry, but our key execs are not here now".
  3. IBM immediately left, and knocked at MICROSOFT offices... Who was there? Bill and Paul... and they said "WHERE IS THE F-CONTRACT and THE PEN?" (1st stroke of genius, without really having a product of their own, but putting TOP-LINE revenue as their main concern).
  4. Next, Paul and Bill knew that IBM products will eventually get cloned, which is exactly what they saw with IBM itself, in their main-frame world. Next stroke of genius? Added a few tiny lines in contract that allowed them to license / market operating system for OTHER products non-IBM made. Result? Contract signed in IBM's Boca Raton office, where Bill and Paul travelled, and a new era in personal computer had just taken off!!!
  5. NOTE: STEVE JOBS himself, later came to Boca, trying to hire DON ESTRIDGE out of IBM, and into Apple Computer, including moving to West Coast... That never happened.

 

Even by today standards... what Bill and Paul did is pure genius (it does not matter who likes it or not... ;-))

Cheers!



#3743 mytekcontrols OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:38 AM

Speaking of licenses, I'm still tempted to go for long FAT filename support but will likely end up following the Linux approach and not maintaining the 8.3 alias since it was that aspect which infringed Microsoft's patent. But when does that patent expire?


Originally in the US a patent was issued for 17 years. At a later date a patents life was extended to 20 years (I don't recall exactly when that happened, but it was relatively recent). Of course each country has its own rules governing patents, so for world wide protection multiple patent applications and approvals are required. However I strongly suspect that the term of a patent (how long it is good for) is similar between countries. And lastly, a patent can only be applied for one time and never can be renewed, and/or extended. So once it's term has run its course, it can be no more.

So back to your question... When was the MS filename patent issued? If it has been over 20 years ago, it no longer has any force. And this is also why nothing Atari ever patented back in it's heyday of designing and producing hardware is still enforceable either.

- Michael

#3744 flashjazzcat ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:06 AM

So back to your question... When was the MS filename patent issued? If it has been over 20 years ago, it no longer has any force.


May well be so. Just had a look, and both the TomTom case and Andrew Tridgell LKML patch both date from 2009.

#3745 mytekcontrols OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:25 PM

This is the last known MS Patent pertaining to FAT long filenames: U.S. Patent #6,286,013

 

That patent is nothing more than a continuation (?)  of one originally filed in 1997. And if I understand how a continuation works, the parent application still applies as far as the length of protection is concerned. So it does seem odd that the TomTom case in 2009 (?) was still within the time period, unless the infractions were dating back to 2007 or prior. At any rate Jan 2007 should have been the last month that the MS patent should have been enforceable by the 20 year term.

 

If anyone is interested, here's a lot more info on all of this: Microsoft FAT patents

 

And even if this patent still had teeth, I find it far fetched that anyone from MS would even become aware of, or be concerned of possible patent infringement based on an Atari 8-Bit GUI produced for no-profit to be used on a no longer manufactured 30 year old vintage computer system. But just think how much time you could devote to this while serving time  ;)

 

- Michael


Edited by mytekcontrols, Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:25 PM.


#3746 gargoyle OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:00 PM

 But just think how much time you could devote to this while serving time  ;)

 

- Michael

 

I love how Atari 8 bit users take their hobby so seriously  :)


Edited by gargoyle, Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:02 PM.





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