ESC Computer Adapter...

[BassGuitari]

Just for fun, do you guys consider the ECS to be a "real" computer, or just something for Intellivision owners to use to dabble with programming (or whatever), similar to BASIC Programming on the VCS or Computer Intro! on Odyssey², or Bally BASIC on the Astrocade?

 

I guess by "real," I mean, "can/could be realistically used in a productive capacity (in 1983)."

 

I'm kind of on the fence. Technically, it is a computer...technically, every game system is. Certainly it isn't in the same league as the machines Commodore, Atari, Apple, and others had out at the same time; it's probably comparable to the Timex-Sinclair/ZX-81, which is by most accounts a "real" computer.

 

But the ECS does have its own BASIC, a "real" keyboard, and even cassette I/O. On paper, I suppose, the ECS offers the bare minimum of what an average consumer might have expected in a computer in the early '80s (feel free to correct me...I wasn't there). However, its obvious limitations preclude its usefulness, and it can't do the things anything else (except maybe the Sinclair) could do. For example, no business offices or schools used computers consisting of an Intellivision II and ECS (as far as I know...). But then again, they probably didn't use Sinclairs, either.

 

On the other hand, for the budding hobbyist, the ECS may have been useful in learning to write simple programs or games.

 

So what do you think? Does the Intellivision ECS belong in the Pantheon Of Classic Computers? Or should it embrace its current status as little more than an interesting Intellivision accessory?

[cparsley]

Yes, the ECS belongs (and it's not the ESC as the OP has on the title), so to answer your question, yes, it qualifies.

[BassGuitari]

Yes, the ECS belongs (and it's not the ESC as the OP has on the title), so to answer your question, yes, it qualifies.

 

Typos happen.

[+Allan]

Other than I/O, does the ECS add anything the the intellivision like more RAM, etc?

 

Allan

[Bill Loguidice]

Yes, the ECS most certainly qualifies. My personal minimum definition for something to qualify as a useable/useful computer is if it's programmable and has the ability to load and save data. The ECS far exceeds that. Let's see, it has a keyboard, can use cartridges or cassettes, has six channels of sound (when combined with the Intellivision's three channels), four controller ports, has a printer, has plenty of usable memory (when combined with the Intellivision's), etc. While no game used EVERY feature, games like World Series Major League Baseball were very impressive for the time, featuring speech synthesis, multiple camera angles, and the loading and saving of game data. It's a shame more wasn't done with it, but it certainly fared better in accessory and software support than some systems.

 

Naturally, other systems easily qualify under my definition for a computer as well, like the Bally Astrocade and the CompuMate add-on for the Atari 2600. What doesn't qualify is the BASIC programming cartridge for the Atari 2600, or, sadly, the Computer Programming cartridge for the Odyssey2. The latter qualifies in most ways, except for the critical ability to load/save data.

[the-topdog]

The dividing point between functional and non functional computers is the ability to save and retrieve programs. So any system that had a tape drive or disk drive was a functional computer.

 

There is nothing more satisfying than loading a program that you wrote off of a cassette then typing "run" and watching the magic happen... on the flip-side, there is nothing more frustrating than not having the ability to save your program to tape or disk, and knowing all of your work will be lost the moment you turn of the machine.

 

As for viability, remember that in that era, there were computers with 2k or less of user accessible memory (such as the Aquarius and the TS1000), so in my humble opinion, YES it does qualify.

[jaybird3rd]

I agree. It's a fairly limited machine, to be sure, and if I had owned one as a kid I probably still would have preferred my 99/4A with its full-fledged BASIC, but it's got everything a machine would need to be considered a computer. The ability to use game graphics from the cartridge inside your own programs was a nice touch.

 

There is some confusion of the terminology: in Mattel's literature, an Intellivision with the Computer Adaptor plugged into it is, as a whole, referred to as the Entertainment Computer System (ECS). Sometimes people call the Computer Adaptor "the ECS," but it isn't a computer by itself as it has no CPU. It's just extra RAM (2K) and ROM, a cartridge passthrough, a sound chip plus controller ports, and a serial port for printers and tapes. It added some important capabilities to the Intellivision, and I only wish that it had come out a bit earlier so that more games could have been made for it.

[Bill Loguidice]

I agree. It's a fairly limited machine, to be sure, and if I had owned one as a kid I probably still would have preferred my 99/4A with its full-fledged BASIC, but it's got everything a machine would need to be considered a computer. The ability to use game graphics from the cartridge inside your own programs was a nice touch.

 

There is some confusion of the terminology: in Mattel's literature, an Intellivision with the Computer Adaptor plugged into it is, as a whole, referred to as the Entertainment Computer System (ECS). Sometimes people call the Computer Adaptor "the ECS," but it isn't a computer by itself as it has no CPU. It's just extra RAM (2K) and ROM, a cartridge passthrough, a sound chip plus controller ports, and a serial port for printers and tapes. It added some important capabilities to the Intellivision, and I only wish that it had come out a bit earlier so that more games could have been made for it.

 

Personally, I would have preferred the original Keyboard Component to have been able to be given a full release in 1981, as then it would have had a real chance at a reasonable market impact if they could have gotten the price under control (which they probably couldn't, and it wouldn't have mattered since Commodore was kicking everyone's ass in the low end by 1984 anyway), but, realistically, I don't see how the ECS could have come out much sooner. With that said, Mattel would have been far better off focusing on getting the ECS out much sooner, releasing bundles with the Intellivision II, and not bothering with the Aquarius at all. It's a far better strategy (financial- and mindshare-wise) having a unified front than a bunch of incompatible/semi-compatible formats floating around, though of course Atari would be particularly guilty of that themselves in the 80s.

[jaybird3rd]

Personally, I would have preferred the original Keyboard Component to have been able to be given a full release in 1981, as then it would have had a real chance at a reasonable market impact if they could have gotten the price under control (which they probably couldn't, and it wouldn't have mattered since Commodore was kicking everyone's ass in the low end by 1984 anyway), but, realistically, I don't see how the ECS could have come out much sooner. With that said, Mattel would have been far better off focusing on getting the ECS out much sooner, releasing bundles with the Intellivision II, and not bothering with the Aquarius at all. It's a far better strategy (financial- and mindshare-wise) having a unified front than a bunch of incompatible/semi-compatible formats floating around, though of course Atari would be particularly guilty of that themselves in the 80s.

As much as I've enjoyed tinkering with my Aquarius recently, I have to admit that it was indeed a mistake for Mattel. According to Steven Roney, it was intended to compete with the VIC-10 in the low-end computer market, but by the time it came out, the VIC-20 (and other much better computers, such as the 99/4A) were already cheaper, so the price point disappeared before the Aquarius even arrived. Being a traditional toy and game company, I'm sure Mattel wasn't used to the rate of technological change that was occurring in the home computer market in 1983. The Aquarius could have been a much better machine with just a few enhancements, but that probably would have put it outside the aggressive price range they were targeting.

 

On a related note, I often find myself forgetting how much more expensive video game and computer hardware was in the early 1980s! I saw a blurb on the Intellivision Productions website which said that the original Intellivision Master Component retailed for $300, which would be about $750 in today's dollars. If Mattel couldn't afford to sell the original Keyboard Component for less than $600 at the time, it would have been a serious investment that most families with kids could never have afforded, and as you say, it would have been obliterated by later machines like the C64 anyway.

 

It would have been very sad if this had happened, but I actually think that the Keyboard Component should have been killed much earlier in development, the moment it became apparent that it would have been too expensive, so that Mattel could have shifted gears and gotten the ECS Computer Adaptor on the market that much sooner. But, from what I've read from Intellivision Productions, it seems that internal politics kept that project going longer than it might have otherwise.

[else]

Did the ECS ever have a word processor for it? My definition of a "computer" from the 80's is that it has to let me write a letter, edit it, save it, and print it out.

 

This sort of goes to the original definition which you put forward of "can/could be realistically used in a productive capacity (in 1983)." Without a word processor, I don't see anyone being very productive with it.

 

A spreadsheet was also sort of a must have for computers in the 80's to be productive with, but I won't hold it to that....

Edited April 30, 2010 by else

[Bill Loguidice]

Did the ECS ever have a word processor for it? My definition of a "computer" from the 80's is that it has to let me write a letter, edit it, save it, and print it out.

 

A spreadsheet was also sort of a must have for computers in the 80's, but I won't hold it to that....

 

No, no word processor, but it could use the Aquarius's printer. It would easy enough to write a simple BASIC word processor. No spreadsheet either, though I don't recall many home users making much use of spreadsheets or databases back then. It was typically word processing as the extent of productivity usage.

 

Other than Mattel's first party cartridges, there were no other software releases for the ECS. It doesn't change the fact that it's a real computer, though.

[the-topdog]

No, no word processor, but it could use the Aquarius's printer. It would easy enough to write a simple BASIC word processor.

 

One of my brother's friends had an Intellivision w/ECS back in the day, and he was proud of the letters he would write to his grandmother and print them out on the tiny thermal paper from his little printer. So that would point to the fact that either there was a word processor for the Intellivision or someone did indeed write a simple word processor in BASIC as you surmised.

 

Of course, we just kind of rolled our eyes at him since we used our Commodore 64 with a full carriage dot matrix printer to print full size, multi-page letters complete with graphics

Edited April 30, 2010 by the-topdog

[Bill Loguidice]

No, no word processor, but it could use the Aquarius's printer. It would easy enough to write a simple BASIC word processor.

 

One of my brother's friends had an Intellivision w/ECS back in the day, and he was proud of the letters he would write to his grandmother and print them out on the tiny thermal paper from his little printer. So that would point to the fact that either there was a word processor for the Intellivision or someone did indeed write a simple word processor in BASIC as you surmised.

 

Of course, we just kind of rolled our eyes at him since we used our Commodore 64 with a full carriage dot matrix printer to print full size, multi-page letters complete with graphics

 

Here is a list of all of the software ever commercially released for the ECS: http://www.intvfunhouse.com/mattel/ecs.php . It's definitely accurate from a first party standpoint. There were no prototype word processor programs in development either, which is not surprising given the quick hook. Unlike the Aquarius, which did receive a reasonable amount of third party/hobbyist support - particularly in the UK - I know of no such support for the ECS. I'd LOVE to be proven wrong, though. Like we both suspect, your friend most likely had some type of BASIC program, though honestly I'd have to check the programming book again to see what type of support there was for printing from BASIC.

 

There was no word processor for the Keyboard Component either. Is it *possible* that your friend had a Mattel Aquarius? The Aquarius and the ECS shared the same tape drive and printer peripheral, and the "FileForm" cartridge worked like a combo word processor/database program.

[the-topdog]

Is it *possible* that your friend had a Mattel Aquarius? The Aquarius and the ECS shared the same tape drive and printer peripheral, and the "FileForm" cartridge worked like a combo word processor/database program.

 

I am positive on the two points. It definitely wasn't an Aquarius and it definitely was an Int/ECS setup... we mocked him constantly about it. Kids can be so evil at times

 

My guess is either a third party program, or just a BASIC program his father wrote. The odd thing is that his printer looked just like the Aquarius printer only it was black. Was it released by multiple manufacturers?

 

EDIT: Found it. It is the Manta printer http://www.vdsteenoven.com/aquarius/manta.html

Edited April 30, 2010 by the-topdog

[IntellivisionDude]

I love the video that plays at the top of this site, it shows the Master System Component and the Actual Keyboard Component.

 

http://kentrepairs.com/General/Intellivision.asp

[else]

I have both the manual that came with the ECS and the rarer "step-by-step guide" that Mattel would send you when you returned the ECS warranty card. I just looked through both and I don't see anything in either manual that talks about how to send output to a printer. So that makes the word processor your friend had a bit of a mystery. Maybe your friend's dad worked for Mattel and it was some prototype software? :)

 

I need to study the manuals some more to see how much control ECS BASIC gives you over the text screen. If you can't even move the cursor around in BASIC, I don't think a Word Processor would even be possible in BASIC....

Edited April 30, 2010 by else

[IntellivisionDude]

Here is a video of me messing around with my ECS. I know nothing at all about computer programming or basic, i was just goofing around typing some names on the screen to give some shout outs to my Youtube friends. But it doesn't give you much room to type with.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFC7gX6iJcs

[else]

Okay, upon a little closer examination in the manual I found that ECS BASIC does allow you print a listing of your program to a printer. This is accomplished with the OUTP routine. However, according to the manual that's all this function can do (it can't be used to print anything else). So it really doesn't allow you to do much with a printer.

 

I don't see any commands that allow you move the cursor around the x,y coordinates of the screen.

Edited April 30, 2010 by else

[the-topdog]

I have both the manual that came with the ECS and the rarer "step-by-step guide" that Mattel would send you when you returned the ECS warranty card. I just looked through both and I don't see anything in either manual that talks about how to send output to a printer. So that makes the word processor your friend had a bit of a mystery. Maybe your friend's dad worked for Mattel and it was some prototype software? :)

 

I need to study the manuals some more to see how much control ECS BASIC gives you over the text screen. If you can't even move the cursor around in BASIC, I don't think a Word Processor would even be possible in BASIC....

 

Nope his dad was in the US Air Force. Usually deployed over in the UK.

 

I'm just making assumptions since I never saw what program he used to make his letters. I just chided him for the resulting product.

 

There are a lot of text editors that had no x,y cursor capability... EDLIN for MS-DOS springs to mind. They were cumbersome and clunky but got the job done. I remember writing .BAT files with EDLIN and it still gives me nightmares. http://www.computerhope.com/edlin.htm

 

It would be a fun little project to come up with something like that for the ECS since it is such an ignored part of computing history.

[the-topdog]

Here is a video of me messing around with my ECS. I know nothing at all about computer programming or basic, i was just goofing around typing some names on the screen to give some shout outs to my Youtube friends. But it doesn't give you much room to type with.

 

Heheh... cool dude. It is always fun to see stuff like this.

[akator]

Naturally, other systems easily qualify under my definition for a computer as well, like the Bally Astrocade and the CompuMate add-on for the Atari 2600. What doesn't qualify is the BASIC programming cartridge for the Atari 2600, or, sadly, the Computer Programming cartridge for the Odyssey2. The latter qualifies in most ways, except for the critical ability to load/save data.

 

The first version of Astrocade BASIC used an optional audio cassette interface that plugged into the controller ports to allow saving and loading software on tape. The second version of the BASIC cart had the cassette interface built-in.

 

<edit>Just wanted to clarify for some who might not have known why the Bally fit Bill's description...</edit>

Edited April 30, 2010 by akator

[akator]

For the last week I've been thinking about this topic.

 

Obviously, a computer is a mechanical or electronic device that runs a program. By that standard, all of our consoles are forms of computers.

 

However... there has always been a difference between what people classify as computers and consumer products like consoles, handhelds, PDAs, cell phones, and other devices.

 

For example, many consoles from the late 80s on began to have carts with "save states." By Bill's defintion, the SMS, NES, and many later consoles and handhelds would qualify as computers.

 

After talking with some people less nerdy than I am, consoles with programming options do not meet their consensus as computers. I asked several iPhone owners if it's a computer, and they said no, it was a smart phone. Of course all of this is subjective, but everyone I asked thought the Sinclair ZX-81/Timex Sinclair 1000 should be classified as a computer, but the keyboard/computer peripherals for the 2600 and Intellivision were not. In my very unscientific poll, all thought that computers were devices that "out-of-the-box," (and that is important) can be used for productivity applications, such as word processing or spreadsheets.

I think this also explains why people have been so divided about the iPad. Is it a computer? Is it a giant iPhone? It isn't the first device to "blur the lines" between computers and consumer products, nor will it be the last, but everyone I spoke with thought that even sophisticated modern consumer products (360, Wii, PS3, iPhone, iPad, etc.) were not "real computers." That doesn't leave much room for the ECS or Astrocade...

[Bill Loguidice]

For the last week I've been thinking about this topic.

 

Obviously, a computer is a mechanical or electronic device that runs a program. By that standard, all of our consoles are forms of computers.

 

However... there has always been a difference between what people classify as computers and consumer products like consoles, handhelds, PDAs, cell phones, and other devices.

 

For example, many consoles from the late 80s on began to have carts with "save states." By Bill's defintion, the SMS, NES, and many later consoles and handhelds would qualify as computers.

 

No, that's not exactly what I was saying. It needs to be user programmable via some type of language and have the ability to save its output, so naturally the SMS does not qualify. The NES does not qualify either, but the Famicom has a nice computer add-on that DOES make it a computer. Just being able to save data does not make a computer. If that was the case, then alarm clocks would be programmable computers.

 

After talking with some people less nerdy than I am, consoles with programming options do not meet their consensus as computers. I asked several iPhone owners if it's a computer, and they said no, it was a smart phone. Of course all of this is subjective, but everyone I asked thought the Sinclair ZX-81/Timex Sinclair 1000 should be classified as a computer, but the keyboard/computer peripherals for the 2600 and Intellivision were not. In my very unscientific poll, all thought that computers were devices that "out-of-the-box," (and that is important) can be used for productivity applications, such as word processing or spreadsheets.

 

And I'm sorry, but they couldn't be more wrong. A computer is a computer is a computer. If the CompuMate for the Atari 2600 and the ECS for the Intellivision does the EXACT same thing as say an Atari 800 or Commodore 64 or Apple II, then they're also computers. The quality of the software library is irrelevant. If someone wants to split hairs and say it needs a word processor, spreadsheet, drawing program, whatever, then the only other qualification other than it already having one is can one be created for it. If the answer is "yes", then it's a computer. They're computers.

 

I think this also explains why people have been so divided about the iPad. Is it a computer? Is it a giant iPhone? It isn't the first device to "blur the lines" between computers and consumer products, nor will it be the last, but everyone I spoke with thought that even sophisticated modern consumer products (360, Wii, PS3, iPhone, iPad, etc.) were not "real computers." That doesn't leave much room for the ECS or Astrocade...

 

The iPad is not user programmable, so it's more of an appliance at this point than a traditional computer. However, it meets most other qualifications (it has word processing, spreadsheet, drawing, etc., apps), and it CAN be USED to program, though is not programmable itself. So yeah, it's a computer. Certainly modern day devices are blurring the line of the traditional definition, including modern day consoles with individually programmable software/games.

 

Again, to say the ECS or Astrocade are not computers is just silly, particularly in consideration of their feature sets in comparison to their contemporaries.

[akator]

Again, to say the ECS or Astrocade are not computers is just silly, particularly in consideration of their feature sets in comparison to their contemporaries.

 

I agree with you. I was not expressing my opinions on the topic, rather sharing the results of several discussions I had with others. I found their perceptions and opinions interesting, even if they were incorrect

[else]

The original question wasn't if the ECS was a computer or not. Of course it is -- I think we can all agree on that. The question was is it a computer that you can do anything productive with. That's a whole different question than if it's a computer or not.

 

How about those arguing that it is a computer that you can do productive things with cite some real-world examples of people using it in a productive way (either now or at anytime in the past)? I.e. give actual examples of people doing something interesting, productive or valuable with it. I mean at this point it's 30 years old, so surely if it is indeed possible then there should be examples out there after that much time!

 

I'm certainly willing to keep an open mind on the topic -- but it's hard for me believe you can do anything "useful" with it, because I've never seen an example of anyone doing anything "useful" with it. Of course, "useful" is a subjective thing, but the original question specifically excludes dabbling in BASIC (so that doesn't count).

 

I mean, maybe the ECS at one time was used to run a BBS, manage a stock portfolio, keep track of the national debt, navigate the space shuttle, count how many nuclear warheads we have, or something like that, and I just don't know it

Edited May 9, 2010 by else