Tell me again why emulators suck?

[ACML]

I got to tell you folks, Ive recently got the bug to own real hardware again (46 year old geek in mid-life crisis), but trying to get this 1200XL servicable again is making question my need for real hardware. The emulators (Altirra and Atari800Win+) are pretty awesome. Think about it, they work anywhere on any machine, no power supplies, hardware, peripherals to maintain-store or lug around. Don't get me wrong, I loved my first 400 (1981), 800 (1983) and 1200XL (the best!), but I'm just not feel'in it right now. I think maybe this particular 1200XL is a minus 3 sigma and I need to try another one. Oh by the way, this pupply is a REV 10 OS with 28 pin sockets at U12 and U13 (US made)? I though all 1200XL had 24 pin sockets at U12 and 13 with provisions on the motherboard for 28s? An emulator and a USB CX-40 are looking pretty good right now. Talk me down guys!

Edited October 22, 2010 by ACML

[+wood_jl]

The keyboard problem alone likely relegates the 1200XL to "least reliable" status of all the 8-bit Atari computers.

 

Since I got back into this sport in 2007, I have acquired 3 800XLs, 3 130XEs, and 1 400. All work perfectly. I had one issue (known) with a bad 800XL power supply. I have an old beige 800 on the way, so we'll see how it goes. My presumption is the older models are all less reliable than the 800XL/130XE.

 

I would like a 1200XL for "the collection" but I'm a little leery of them, because of the keyboard issue. I see many Ebay listings where there are keyboard problems mentioned, if the machine is claimed to have been tested, or if the seller gets (and answers and posts) questions to test the keyboard.

 

I suppose the 1200XL is of some nostalgic value to you, which is why it's your machine of choice. However, I wouldn't go so far as to condemn the entire Atari 8-bit line (which is, overall, surprisingly reliable given age) because of the 1200XL. It could be that you have a "bad" machine, too.

 

My experience is, of course, limited, and perhaps my experience is not representative, but I am inclined to declare the Atari computers (in general) a bit of a virtuous shining star of reliability (in a crazy world where they're bona fide antiques), relative to other brands from the era. Earlier in the year, I thought I had the bug for various other offerings. My 2 Commodore 64s both had issues. My Vic-20 quit. My TI-99/4A had serious issues. My Amiga 1200 had issues. I ended up parting them all out, and some just went into the garbage can. I discovered I wasn't as interested in those machines as I thought I was - or perhaps the experience just left a bad taste in my mouth - but I made no effort to seek replacements when emulation works so well for them. Had the Atari computers been less reliable, I *would* have sought replacements because these old machines really mean a lot to me, nostalgia-wise. I should also mention that I have had fantastic luck with the 5 Atari ST (although it's of no relation other than name) machines I've tried, as well.

 

I have bought 800XLs from Ebay for $7 plus $15 shipping that work perfectly. I'd suggest making a similar move. Then you can have a working machine while you try to fix the 1200XL.

[sloopy]

The 1200XL was my favorite of all the A8's, i still have two, both dont work and one is missing the LED pcb... but i wouldnt get rid of them for anything...

 

yes emu's are nice, but one thing an emu will never give you, is the feel of the machine, the joy of having the REAL hardware in front of you...

 

 

and i would be more then willing to trade my USB CX-40 for your 1200XL... i would even give you both USB CX-40's for it ;')

 

 

sloopy.

[NorthPole(heeHAW)]

I rather like Emulators. I like the convenience of a "room full" of different systems with a "warehouse full" of games on one USB stick.

 

Of course the real thing is cooler but emus don't really break.

 

Aaron

Edited October 22, 2010 by NorthPole(heeHAW)

[+therealbountybob]

But the PC's break regularly, just think of all the problems and time spent maintaining the PC

Go Atari

 

p.s. you could also go for a more standard 800XL/130XE

[Bryan]

The 600/800XL was available with many different keyboard variations and a couple of them are indestructible. All the ones that are based on painted plastic sheets will eventually oxidize and fail.

 

The original 400/800 will be around forever. Someone will dig one up 1000 years from now and play Star Raiders.

[Marius]

In my opinion Emulators are 'only' handy tools, but never beat the real thing.

 

I think it is extermely cool to see old hardware doing fabulous things. When an emulator shows us the same fabulous things, it is still running on modern equipment. Which is not so cool.

 

When someone visits my home and sees the atari 8bit running a cool demo the reactions are always: GREAT, fantastic!

 

I'm sure they would not act like that when I show the same thing on an emulator.

 

That is why emulators s*ck hehe.

 

Greetz

M.

[OldAtarian]

As far as I'm concerned, the 1200XL is one of those things you get one of to complete your collection but you would rarely want to use it. Maybe fire it up once in a while to make sure it's still alive but have some other A8 around for actually doing anything with. They have unique issues that are not found in any other A8 and I'd rather not have to deal with them if I can avoid it.

[Mclaneinc]

I'd love to get back a set of the real hardware, not to use it that often but just to have the real thing. Emulators will not help you relive the nostalgia as much as playing on the real thing BUT for those of us who are casual gamers then emulators like Altirra are simply superb. I an fire that up without the leads and space needed, I have all the options of the real thing even down to the loading noise and I also have all the lovely extra's.

 

I do miss my hardware put purely just to be able to look at it to bring back a few more memories of the day. So yes you could quite happily as I do still have all the joys of an Atari without the storage or worry about dying disks or failing hardware, unless you are doing some very machine dependent hardware dev then an emulator is even perfect for that. You would really only need to have the real thing to test it works on it.

[+bob1200xl]

Yes, some of the 1200XLs have 28 pin sockets for the OS ROMs. That's what the 'W' jumpers are for.

 

Yes, the 1200XLs have a lot of loose ends that need attention. You gotta 'Cowboy Up' to run a real 1200XL! (or, Cowgirl... don't want to imply anything here)

 

It's like a '57 Chevy. If you just went down and bought one at Wal-Mart, all done perfect with a DOHC, computer-controlled engine, surround sound stereo, and a BMW suspension, how cool could that be? Dynamic Stability Control in a 50 year-old car?

 

Bob

 

 

I got to tell you folks, Ive recently got the bug to own real hardware again (46 year old geek in mid-life crisis), but trying to get this 1200XL servicable again is making question my need for real hardware. The emulators (Altirra and Atari800Win+) are pretty awesome. Think about it, they work anywhere on any machine, no power supplies, hardware, peripherals to maintain-store or lug around. Don't get me wrong, I loved my first 400 (1981), 800 (1983) and 1200XL (the best!), but I'm just not feel'in it right now. I think maybe this particular 1200XL is a minus 3 sigma and I need to try another one. Oh by the way, this pupply is a REV 10 OS with 28 pin sockets at U12 and U13 (US made)? I though all 1200XL had 24 pin sockets at U12 and 13 with provisions on the motherboard for 28s? An emulator and a USB CX-40 are looking pretty good right now. Talk me down guys!

[atariksi]

I'd love to get back a set of the real hardware, not to use it that often but just to have the real thing. Emulators will not help you relive the nostalgia as much as playing on the real thing BUT for those of us who are casual gamers then emulators like Altirra are simply superb. I an fire that up without the leads and space needed, I have all the options of the real thing even down to the loading noise and I also have all the lovely extra's.

 

I do miss my hardware put purely just to be able to look at it to bring back a few more memories of the day. So yes you could quite happily as I do still have all the joys of an Atari without the storage or worry about dying disks or failing hardware, unless you are doing some very machine dependent hardware dev then an emulator is even perfect for that. You would really only need to have the real thing to test it works on it.

 

That's just your opinion based on what you use your Atari for. I actually don't care about the nostalgia nor loading noises. Peripherals have been updated so you shouldn't really get failing peripherals nor heavy items nor power supply issues. Just plug in a flash cart or one of those disk drive simulators and that solves the peripheral problem unless you have a copyprotected disk then you would need the real physical 1050 or equivalent. Emulators are only accurate to frame times (not just Atari emulators) not to real Ataris (5.58ns or whatever it is for PAL) so I don't think hardware testing can even be done for most of the hardware. The same ports don't even exist on an emulator (because they don't exist on modern PCs). And even if you mimic them using USB, you can't test the hardware down to cycle times only approximately at frame time accuracy.

 

About maintenance, you maintain PCs as well; it's just that PC parts are more common and cheaper so easily available.

[Ross PK]

Emu's are good, but the colours on most or a lot of the games on them are always look different from the real thing. Plus the graphics look more blocky too, in my experience.

 

If you look at my review of LA SWAT running on the real thing, and then a gameplay video of it running on an emu, you can see what I mean.

 

Running on real hardware,

 

Running on an emu,

Edited October 22, 2010 by Ross PK

[+remowilliams]

All the ones that are based on painted plastic sheets will eventually oxidize and fail.

 

Had the same thing happen to my original 800XL from BITD. Pulled it out recently after a very long hiatus, and I had to tear down the keyboard to clean the mylars. Same thing I had to do when I picked up a boxed and hardly used 1200XL. Both were fine though afterwards and will be good for quite a long time to come in all likelihood.

[svenski]

I don't think an emulator comes close to the real thing.

 

Emulators are great, don't get me wrong, but you can't beat real Atari hardware.

[Chuck D. Head]

Its all personal preference guys. If you don't get satisfaction out of repairing the hardware to keep it going and you just want to play games, go for emulation and sell your finicky hardware to someone who enjoys futzing around with it. For me the hardware is a big part of the experience; I actually enjoying getting out the 91% and cotton swabbing cart connectors and soldering bad connections, etc. Morgan

[russg]

I got to tell you folks, Ive recently got the bug to own real hardware again (46 year old geek in mid-life crisis), but trying to get this 1200XL servicable again is making question my need for real hardware. The emulators (Altirra and Atari800Win+) are pretty awesome. Think about it, they work anywhere on any machine, no power supplies, hardware, peripherals to maintain-store or lug around. Don't get me wrong, I loved my first 400 (1981), 800 (1983) and 1200XL (the best!), but I'm just not feel'in it right now. I think maybe this particular 1200XL is a minus 3 sigma and I need to try another one. Oh by the way, this pupply is a REV 10 OS with 28 pin sockets at U12 and U13 (US made)? I though all 1200XL had 24 pin sockets at U12 and 13 with provisions on the motherboard for 28s? An emulator and a USB CX-40 are looking pretty good right now. Talk me down guys!

 

I can't tell you which way to go. But I do have an opinion about 1200XL. I have all A8s but 400, 65XE and XEGS.

I just upgraded my 600XL to 64K and played with it. Oh, yes, 1200XL. I consider it the most sought after,

solid A8. I gave one 1200XL to grandson and he says it is still working. I did Bob1200XL repair of my

second 1200XL keyboard and it is working fine now. I tried burning a 1mb Maxflash cart with one of my

trusty 800XL, no go. The 1200XL burned it no problem. Now I have my two favorites, Sargon III and Pacman

on a Maxflash cart, which runs flawlessly on the 1200XL and won't run at all on my 130XE.

You didn't mention what's wrong with your 1200XL, I would guess the keyboard. I do use APE for disk drives,

I have real drives but never use them.

[Syfo-Dyas]

My only real complaint, being a musician of sorts, is the emulation of Audio is NEVER the same as the real deal.

Edited October 23, 2010 by Syfo-Dyas

[Cebus Capucinis]

REAL HARDWARE OR NOTHING!!!

[Mclaneinc]

 

That's just your opinion based on what you use your Atari for. I actually don't care about the nostalgia nor loading noises. Peripherals have been updated so you shouldn't really get failing peripherals nor heavy items nor power supply issues. Just plug in a flash cart or one of those disk drive simulators and that solves the peripheral problem unless you have a copyprotected disk then you would need the real physical 1050 or equivalent. Emulators are only accurate to frame times (not just Atari emulators) not to real Ataris (5.58ns or whatever it is for PAL) so I don't think hardware testing can even be done for most of the hardware. The same ports don't even exist on an emulator (because they don't exist on modern PCs). And even if you mimic them using USB, you can't test the hardware down to cycle times only approximately at frame time accuracy.

 

About maintenance, you maintain PCs as well; it's just that PC parts are more common and cheaper so easily available.

 

Buts that's exactly what I said re the use of them, I also said along the lines of "unless you are doing precise hardware dev" which is true, of course the emulator won't be as perfectly precise but for software testing it's normally aok ie a game or most utils or maybe demos.

 

As for maintenance, that was also my point, its just simply easier (unless you have spares) to maintain a pc also you are not dealing with 25yr tech which will start sooner or later to fail.

 

For anyone just looking to have casual gaming fun or use a major lump of the software out then emulators are fine in my opinion.

[Mclaneinc]

Emu's are good, but the colours on most or a lot of the games on them are always look different from the real thing. Plus the graphics look more blocky too, in my experience.

 

If you look at my review of LA SWAT running on the real thing, and then a gameplay video of it running on an emu, you can see what I mean.

 

Running on real hardware,

 

Running on an emu,

 

Thankfully in Altirra you can redefine the color palette to massive extent as you can the square or not ness of the pixels, whether you can mimic the real thing I can't say as I have no hardware to test against.

[Mclaneinc]

Come in guys, most of us are purists to certain degrees (most to the highest level) so nothing will replace the real thing but that was not the question asked originally. As much as I stick up for Altirra I also would love to have my originals back but I have to be realistic about the simple reason I no longer have them in the first place...

 

LIFE...

 

It was fine when my wife and I were still working and we were spending holidays in the USA 3 times a year and had a big house, but life has a habit of slapping you right back in the face. The last time I saw my huge lump of Atari 8bit and C64 hardware was when it was in storage at my mothers, sadly she died in her care home and by then all the cash and big house had gone, I had no where to put it and it ended up in a skip.

 

After that my daughter was born so money is more tight and I can't imagine where I could put the stuff now

 

So would I have my gear back, yes, but can I live without it, also yes...You have to see what the other needs are as well.....

 

So, anyone near London got a complete set for free

Edited October 23, 2010 by Mclaneinc

[flashjazzcat]

Thankfully in Altirra you can redefine the color palette to massive extent as you can the square or not ness of the pixels, whether you can mimic the real thing I can't say as I have no hardware to test against.

I can't seem to get palette changes to "take". Not sure what I'm doing wrong. The dialogue has no "OK" button...

[carmel_andrews]

Well I like both, real hardware and emulation

 

I accept that nothing will replace playing a game on a pucka (i.e real) A8 and having the feel of a sexy beautiful cx-40 (or similar) joystick in your hands, beats playing with a pc (or other platform) a8 emulator with a cacky pc joypad (yes, I accpet you can now get devices that allow you to use an atari joystick on a pc etc...but that doesn't come free)

 

Nice things with emulators is that everything is in one place, i.e all your game images (or to using to correct terminology 'roms') are in a hard drive directory and not taking up a whole bookshelf, especially if you have litterally 000's of game files like I have (yes A8 gaming is that addictive)

 

And not only that your not using up any more leccy i.e just the pc/monitor and probably the speakers (but i use a headset instead so that i don't bore the others with me noise)

 

As for McLaneinc... I've not come across one retro shop (in the last 2 years) that now supports atari/commodore gear (most/all of them in c.london are only interested in Japanese consoles like sega/ninty/sony/NEC/SNK etc etc) I dunno if retro x in shepherd's bush is still going (they were pretty good with atari/commodore stuff from what i remember) and computer and games exchange in notting hill is no more (from what one of their shop attendents told me that worked in one of their other stores/shops)

Edited October 23, 2010 by carmel_andrews

[Mclaneinc]

Thankfully in Altirra you can redefine the color palette to massive extent as you can the square or not ness of the pixels, whether you can mimic the real thing I can't say as I have no hardware to test against.

I can't seem to get palette changes to "take". Not sure what I'm doing wrong. The dialogue has no "OK" button...

 

It adjusts in real time, when happy just close the box, changes are retained..

 

Yours seems to be not adjusting as you move the sliders, can't say why but I always go for the reset of the registry values (I don't use a separate cfg)

[Mclaneinc]

 

As for McLaneinc... I've not come across one retro shop (in the last 2 years) that now supports atari/commodore gear (most/all of them in c.london are only interested in Japanese consoles like sega/ninty/sony/NEC/SNK etc etc) I dunno if retro x in shepherd's bush is still going (they were pretty good with atari/commodore stuff from what i remember) and computer and games exchange in notting hill is no more (from what one of their shop attendents told me that worked in one of their other stores/shops)

 

Not been to shepherds bush in yonks, will give it a look up, there was also that other retro place sort of Harrow way but not in Harrorw, one of our Maplin shops was near but he wanted so much cash for the consoles. What annoys me is that I chatted to the guy runs a PC shop just off Marlow high st and he had plenty of old hardware in storage, when I said that some of the a8bit newsgroup would be interested he just said it was too much work.

 

Good to see an acute business mind at work!