Digital Joysticks provide better control than Analog Joysticks

[potatohead]

Re: Experienced both.

 

Yep. And anybody who has experienced both knows there are good cases for each, but no universal "better" case, which was the point of this whole exercise anyway.

 

Given the overall scope of possibilities, there must be qualifiers. What I don't get is why they are so strongly denied, which speaks to the "Why?" question above. It's all rather pointless really, without that.

 

Re: Nothing for a few days.

 

Well, I'm not convinced of that, because I really can't see YOU Divya16 as different from Atariksi, despite repeated, and often reasonable though not always so, attempts to clarify that. Any ordinary person would understand the frustration, and I'll just say I tried both the reasonable and rational, as well as the fairly aggressive and ugly to ferret that out. It's not like you've been forthcoming with the details people need to understand, making it all a game, which many of us were quite happy to play!

 

Part of that was a coupla replies that sure looked like Atariksi was replying through a second account. What are people left to conclude then? Can you see the dilemma here? Sorry that's painful, but really, you did ask for it.

 

Still having fun?

[+Stephen]

Well, can anyone name me games (apart from rpgs, wargames/sims and adventures) that used keyboard for game play

 

I can only think of 2, one man and his droid and thorn emi's billiards

Not completely keyboard controlled, but the wonderful Star Raiders relies on keyboard. Oh yeah - something else about Star Raiders. It is universally accepted that the 5200 version with analog control is superior.

[+Stephen]

You haven't experienced gaming control unless you have played with a digital joystick. And you haven't experienced the inferiority of analog joysticks unless you have experienced both.

 

I don't have anyone on ignore.

You seriously messed up in understanding if you are accusing ANY of us from not using both types of sticks (in addition to paddles, steering wheels, flight sticks, etc.) This was mentioned by me on the first damn page - FIRST REPLY even.

 

Inline if you are too lazy to click it.

Depends entirely on the game. PacMan is definitely better with a digital stick, but a flight-simulator is much better with analog control. 

 

You are too god damned stubborn (or intellectually inferior) to agree that both have their merits and this is why nobody wants to talk to you anymore. A full FIFTY PAGES and 1250 replies later you still don't get it. It's like talking to a brick wall.

[Mirage]

EDIT: Nevermind, the whole question of digital vs analog control of a vehicle is too absurd to even go into.

[carmel_andrews]

EDIT: Nevermind, the whole question of digital vs analog control of a vehicle is too absurd to even go into.

 

 

 

 

 

I have heard of people using joysticks to control cars (auto's) remotely, can't remember the james bond film but there's a scene where pierce brosnan is controlling his bmw with an ngage mobile phone

[Mirage]

EDIT: Nevermind, the whole question of digital vs analog control of a vehicle is too absurd to even go into.

 

I have heard of people using joysticks to control cars (auto's) remotely, can't remember the james bond film but there's a scene where pierce brosnan is controlling his bmw with an ngage mobile phone

 

Yes, I know, but the gist is that in high performance driving, having a feel for the road is exceptionally important, and analog works wonderfully for that. I can envision being able to simulate it with digital controls, and I'm sure it's been done, but analog is very well suited for high performance driving.

 

I'm not even going to go into it. This is just going off the deep end into absurd even moreso than it already was.

[RevEng]

I have heard of people using joysticks to control cars (auto's) remotely, can't remember the james bond film but there's a scene where pierce brosnan is controlling his bmw with an ngage mobile phone

Lots of vehicles have been adapted to joysticks to allow disabled people to drive. These systems (e.g. the Space Drive) use analog joysticks.

 

Similarly, the Hollywood driving rigs I've seen (e.g. in Mythbusters) use analog RC controls.

[Divya16]

Which is exactly why you'd need a very large selection of both analog and digital controllers (and test subjects, games, etc) for any such comparison to be valid in the slightest. You'd probably also want to record feedback from the test subjects to better explain some results. (and possibly modify the experiment if you not a significant number of controllers/games/etc brought to your attention that were omitted)

 

If you factor out the skill level, then you don't need a bunch of different test subjects. That was the point of that mathematical expression Sn(g)*A+Sn(g)*D = E. It can be extended to Sn(g)*A+Sn(g)*D+Sn(g)*P+Sn(g)*K + Sn(g)*T + Sn(g)*M= E where P = paddles, K=keyboard controls, T=touch tablet, M=mouse, etc. But we're concerned mainly about A and D so just set the other variables P,K,M,T = 0. You perform the experiment E and just note down the terms and as you can't already assume the inequality one way or the other so E is the experimental activity. You do a need to play each game many times unless you know the exact point of failure and can repeatedly do that part and you do need to play a few different games but no need to bother with those that have similar points of failure. You can optimize the joysticks so you don't have to iterate over all the various joysticks in the world.

 

Funny how you cut out the post Kool Kitty was replying to, cutting out the very simple and obvious example that demonstrates that you cannot simply "factor out the skill level"

 

Let's put it back in for your benefit (I've added some further explanatory points in red to help remove any confusion you might be pretending to have):

 

 

Explain this then Atariksi:

 

I used to own an Amiga with two Konix speedking sticks. My mate also owned an Amiga, but he had two Quickshot sticks.

 

My Speedking and his Quickshot were both digital, though they were quite different in terms of construction and design.

 

During our many games of Speedball 2,we observed the following:

 

1) When he would come over to my place and play against me using the Speedking, I would usually beat him while he whined and moaned about the controller. (Note: In these instances we were both using Speedkings.)

2) When I would go to his place and play against him using the Quickshot, he would usually beat me, and I would moan about the controller. (Note: In these instances we were both using Quickshots.)

 

3) When either of us brought our preferred controller with us, our wins and losses over multiple games were fairly evenly matched. (Note: In these instances I was using a Speedking, he was using a Quickshot.)

 

 

He knew how to use the Speedking. I knew how to use the Quickshot. Neither of us needed an instruction manual. So how does your so-called 'logical expression', your factoring out of skill, and your resulting conclusion account for the outcomes we experienced?

 

If we apply Atariksi 'logic', then as I applied the 'same skill' to both sticks and routinely did better with the Speedking, the Speedking is therefore scientifically proven to be the better joystick.

 

Yet as my mate applied his 'same skill' to both sticks and routinely did better with the Quickshot, the Quickshot is therefore scientifically proven to be the better stick, according to Atariksi 'logic'.

 

The two conclusions are incompatible. Thus your logic is faulty. QED.

 

 

So far you have been too timid to address this. Either too timid, or too intellectually dishonest.

 

You have pretended to address it, with this post:

 

Yeah, as if he never changed-- using his own misunderstandings/misexperiments to blame others. What need was there to experiment with two digital joysticks given that you can use one digital joystick and get different scores by playing the same game multiple times.

 

But that was merely an attempt at avoiding the issue with intentional misconstrual (one of your favourite and most obvious tactics when proven wrong). I say intentional, as my example is so straightforward I find it hard to believe that you failed to understand. Furthermore, I've made a specific point of mentioning your reply here because if I didn't, you would most likely try to wriggle out of it by saying something like 'I already responded to this in Post #1121.'

 

 

But make no mistake: You haven't addressed the issue. You have not acquitted yourself in any way. Your logic is flawed. If it isn't, then please explain to me how the following claims --

 

If I apply skill S0 to game g with digital joystick D and analog joystick A then S0(g)*A+S0(g)*D is the experiment. Guess what-- if someone else with skill S1 uses same game g and digital joystick D and analog joystick A then S1(g)*A+S1(g)*D then those subjects S0..Sn get factored out. It's called the distributive property in simpler mathematics. Your skill applies equally to both games so you don't need hundreds of subjects to determine the results.

I'm so sorry, but the skill is of the same person using both types of joysticks and is thus factorable. When I played Miner 2049er with analog joystick and scored average of 35K and scored average of 48K with digital joystick-- I applied the same skills using those two joysticks. My skills didn't change. The controlled variable is ONLY the joysticks, and thus the conclusion from that experiment is that digital joystick provides better control. And I already listed five (5) items that back me up logically (inherently flawed analog joysticks). FYI, S(Miner2049er)*A < S(Miner2049er)*D, so given you have some skills to play the game (i.e, S(g)!=0), you divide by S(g) and thus A<D. QED.

If you factor out the skill level, then you don't need a bunch of different test subjects. That was the point of that mathematical expression Sn(g)*A+Sn(g)*D = E.

Once the skill level gets factored out, the number of subjects can be one (as already stated).

 

-- can withstand being applied to my straightforward real-world example above. (Bold emphasis mine, btw.)

 

 

 

Let me remind you that in Post #1124 I said:

 

So I'm challenging you point-blank: Instead of dodging the question by resorting to intentional misconstrual and deflection, explain to me how your so-called 'logical expression' and your factoring out of the individual's skill can apply to the scenario I described above, in which my mate routinely performed better with the Quickshot over the Speedking, while I routinely performed better with the Speedking over the Quickshot. Which is the better joystick?

 

That challenge stands. If you are too stubborn or too scared to honestly respond to my question, perhaps Divya16 can attempt on your behalf.

 

 

Come on Divya, you claimed the following:

 

In this case you are interested in what effects the two types of JOYSTICKS have on various games. As long as you know how to use both joysticks (which isn't a big deal), that's all that matters. If I play pac-man with both joysticks 100 times, then the skill level I apply for the game is the same-- only the controllers would make the difference. In fact, I can play better now than I did a few years but that still doesn't affect the relationship. The experiment activity is S(Pac-man)*A + S(Pac-man)*D. I guess you can use a scaling factor A and D since the specifics of the function S(g) can encompass everything else. It's an expression of logic in mathematical terms.

 

So how about you explain how Atariksi's so-called 'logical expression' and factoring out of the individual's skill can apply to the example I presented above. Which is the better joystick?

 

 

 

By the way, if I'm starting to sound repetitive, it's because I have to be laboriously specific in order to minimise opportunities for Atariksi to weakly dodge the matter through any one of his typical avoidance tactics. This is a fact that does not reflect well on his character.

 

You are mixing "having learned to use joysticks" with "being used to both joysticks". Okay, you don't have to read the manual but you still need to experience both joysticks. Theoretical vs. practical. I know for a fact that I can easily adapt to various digital and analog joysticks with no effect on how I play the game. And that's true for the friends that come over and do the same. Maybe you are getting too emotional and letting it affect you which would disqualify you from experimenting but not your general case. So you can't generalize that the logic is flawed or skill factor is not factorable from your case.

[Divya16]

Well, can anyone name me games (apart from rpgs, wargames/sims and adventures) that used keyboard for game play

 

I can only think of 2, one man and his droid and thorn emi's billiards

Not completely keyboard controlled, but the wonderful Star Raiders relies on keyboard. Oh yeah - something else about Star Raiders. It is universally accepted that the 5200 version with analog control is superior.

 

Ahm, not really universal; it's more of some people subjectively liking to deal with feedback related controls. And as far as I know, the 5200 version of games in general are able to enhance games because they have more cartridge space. So can't really compare 8-bit vs. 5200 just by controls in that case.

 

More people still play the 8-bit version.

[Divya16]

Well, can anyone name me games (apart from rpgs, wargames/sims and adventures) that used keyboard for game play

 

I can only think of 2, one man and his droid and thorn emi's billiards

 

If you have an Atari 5200, you can easily use a Wico keypad to play frogger (like arrow keys) or the analog joystick. Even if you can get some hacked version where you don't have to hit the fire button every time to move, you'll see that the digital interface (keyboard) wins hands down. And digital joystick obviously is superior to digital keyboard interface as discussed.

[+Stephen]

You are mixing "having learned to use joysticks" with "being used to both joysticks". Okay, you don't have to read the manual but you still need to experience both joysticks. Theoretical vs. practical. I know for a fact that I can easily adapt to various digital and analog joysticks with no effect on how I play the game. And that's true for the friends that come over and do the same. Maybe you are getting too emotional and letting it affect you which would disqualify you from experimenting but not your general case. So you can't generalize that the logic is flawed or skill factor is not factorable from your case.

Well, this sounds a bit different than saying you constantly score higher with a digital joystick. Why the constant flip-flopping?

 

None of us are getting emotional either, unless you consider being doubled over with laughter at your idiotic arguments.

[+Stephen]

Ahm, not really universal; it's more of some people subjectively liking to deal with feedback related controls. And as far as I know, the 5200 version of games in general are able to enhance games because they have more cartridge space. So can't really compare 8-bit vs. 5200 just by controls in that case.

 

More people still play the 8-bit version.

Hmm - kind of like how you subjectively like digital better. Extra cart space has nothing to do with enhancing Star Raiders. It is an 8kB game. Is this just another one of your ridiculous arguments or an attempt at diversion? What enhances Star Raiders on the 5200 is the analog control. End of story.

[svenski]

Stephen has said it. Atari logo screen aside the 8-bit and 5200 versions of Star Raiders and quite a lot of 8bit/5200 games are identical apart from obvious behind the scenes code changes to take into account the slight hardware differences between the two platforms and (more obviously) handle the analog controllers.

 

For Star Raiders analog controllers are better suited and make for better game play in my opinion.

 

This whole thread is long past its sell by date.

 

Digital and analog controllers both have their place and different people will always have their own preferences and thoughts as to what works best for them or what works best for playing certain games.

 

Just because I prefer playing Star Raiders on my 5200 using the analog controllers doesn't stop me enjoying playing the game with digital joysticks on one of my A8s and certainly I wouldn't expect everyone to agree with me nor would I try and force my personal preference onto everyone else.

[Divya16]

Ahm, not really universal; it's more of some people subjectively liking to deal with feedback related controls. And as far as I know, the 5200 version of games in general are able to enhance games because they have more cartridge space. So can't really compare 8-bit vs. 5200 just by controls in that case.

 

More people still play the 8-bit version.

Hmm - kind of like how you subjectively like digital better. Extra cart space has nothing to do with enhancing Star Raiders. It is an 8kB game. Is this just another one of your ridiculous arguments or an attempt at diversion? What enhances Star Raiders on the 5200 is the analog control. End of story.

 

It's a 16KB ROM file-- maybe it's using less space internally but in general games have variations and can't be compared 1:1. Pole position also employs analog control as well on Atari 5200 is makes things more uncertain and thus relies on feedback to tell what you did with the controller. Pac-man on Atari 5200 is quite different from Atari 800 version of the cartridge. That other reply to Barnacle Boy was regarding two digital joysticks so you screwed that up as well.

 

Nothing subjective about digital providing superior control, but I was making the point of first comparing games that are the same.

[potatohead]

Refuted. You need to either bring new information to the table, or bag it, or admit the flawed proposition is, in fact, flawed and not something we can reach consensus on.

 

Digital input isn't better, unless you choose to quantify what the context of "better" is.

[Mirage]

Just think what could be accomplished if all this stubbornness was directed toward something worthwhile.

[potatohead]

No shit! Well, that's potential wasted, IMHO.

 

Notice how it's ANYTHING but the topic at hand. Same old approaches in play. Right now, we are back to the "making friends" and "nice discussion" stage, where the idea is to slowly get people to agree with some supporting points, so that the flawed ones carry more weight.

 

Watch for it. Happening right now. The alt-persona is doing some manupulation, maybe bruising people up a little, depending, so the big dog can step in, express indignation over how stupid people are, and how we are so off topic from the "proof" offered.

 

LOL!!

Edited December 28, 2010 by potatohead

[kool kitty89]

Hmm - kind of like how you subjectively like digital better. Extra cart space has nothing to do with enhancing Star Raiders. It is an 8kB game. Is this just another one of your ridiculous arguments or an attempt at diversion? What enhances Star Raiders on the 5200 is the analog control. End of story.

The convenient placement of the keypad is also nice. (so long as the kypad is in good working order)

[+Stephen]

No shit! Well, that's potential wasted, IMHO.

 

Notice how it's ANYTHING but the topic at hand. Same old approaches in play. Right now, we are back to the "making friends" and "nice discussion" stage, where the idea is to slowly get people to agree with some supporting points, so that the flawed ones carry more weight.

 

Watch for it. Happening right now. The alt-persona is doing some manupulation, maybe bruising people up a little, depending, so the big dog can step in, express indignation over how stupid people are, and how we are so off topic from the "proof" offered.

 

LOL!!

I know - I cannot comprehend why it is so hard for some people to say "I was wrong" and move along.

 

I wonder if atariksi is stuck in JFK again?

[JamesD]

Can we vote atariksi off the island now? Oh wait... that's survivor. If only!

[svenski]

More people still play the 8-bit version.

 

I think you will find that is because there are a lot more 8-bits out there than 5200s - and the 5200 didn't make it across the Atlantic.

[Mirage]

More people still play the 8-bit version.

 

I think you will find that is because there are a lot more 8-bits out there than 5200s - and the 5200 didn't make it across the Atlantic.

 

And if I didn't know better, I'd swear that was an appeal to majority. Or at least toeing a little close to the edge.

[Chuck D. Head]

This sucker is still going strong. Something's gotta give eventually. Thread needs Shatner pics. Ceeeeeeeebussss!!

[+Stephen]

This sucker is still going strong. Something's gotta give eventually. Thread needs Shatner pics. Ceeeeeeeebussss!!

[Barnacle boy]

And people wondered why I was so persistent in the argument over ST vs 8 bit for desktop publishing.

 

I'm pretty sure most folks here would have understood.