atariksi, on Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:17 PM, said:
You are voting for one of the three joysticks. You can't vote for multiple ones since you have to decide which one you prefer. I thought you were joking about feedback earlier. But it's a lame excuse for not admitting the uncertainty of the state of analog joysticks. You already have game elements to worry about than to add to the user frustration of determining his joystick state by looking at feedback. Analog joysticks are giving less control if you have to rely on feedback rather than knowing a priori the state. You are ahead of the game with digital joysticks. When they made rotary phones and put those circular holes in it to try to minimize the uncertainty of the analog state of what you dial, that couldn't rely on feedback but had to know beforehand. Of course the touch tone phones (digital) were better.
The subject line says "Digital Joysticks provide better control than Analog Joysticks (It's a scientific fact; let's see who can refute it)". That is what I was responding to. For you to make your case you have to prove (which you haven't) that it is actually a scientific fact (which it ain't). I didn't vote for multiple anything (I chose analog). But you put out a loaded, incorrect statement like that subject line and this is what you end up with.
It's clearly stated in the first post that you are picking from the joysticks in the picture or similar NOT paddles. Yes, paddles do have uncertainty as well but not as much as analog joysticks. I know it's made of two POTs but the construction makes a big difference. I would never put arrow keys/ctrl key (digital) in a separate catagory if I didn't think the construction makes a difference. Heck, even piano keys are digital so that can also be modified to serve as a digital joystick but it would be much harder to use than a joystick with a stick and button(s). For one thing, going diagonally is easier with a stick like in a game like Topper. I think Archimedes said if he had a lever big enough, he can lift the earth. So less stress/strain using a stick-based digital joystick. Mouse is easier to use than a trackball although they are essentially the same circuit-wise. So NO, paddles are not the same as an analog joystick.
It's clearly stated in your subject line that you are challenging people to refute your "scientific fact". You can't expect counter-arguments to be comprised solely of "nuh-uh" and "yuh-huh". I could quote Monty Python's Argument Sketch, specifically gainsaying, but I doubt you'd successfully follow that point, either.
And if you think piano keys are digital you've never played a piano and you really don't understand the advantages of analog controls. They, like analog joysticks, paddles and trackballs, have a speed or force component to their action, something that the simple on/off inputs from a digital joystick can never provide.
It's in the first post. You don't see anyone driving cars with an analog joystick either but using a big paddle (not a small paddle either) since car steering require analogicity and both analog joystick and digital joystick would produce bad results. And FYI, even breakout is playable with digital joystick (see Flashback system) and they do provide better control, but you lack the fast motion from one side to the other that you get with a paddle so they sacrificed the better control for adding that analogicity so they get that extra speed feature.
"Playable" doesn't equal "better control". Have you actually played
Breakout? When it gets really fast you most definitely need the fast motion which you admit that digital joysticks don't provide while ignoring that analog joysticks do. Again, it depends on the game
And why do you keep ignoring actual planes (I'm assuming single-seat fighter) with their (gasp!) analog joysticks? Do you really think a pilot can fly a plane with a digital joystick and get the same responsiveness? And what if you replaced the foot pedals with two giant digital buttons? When that poor bastard gets shot down at least he can die content that he knew, at every moment, what state his digital joystick was in, thank Odin, and wonder how he even got shot down by the other pilot with his worse-controlled analog joystick plane.
Well, programming matters because the sampling/interpreting of the data plays a role. There's calibration needed with Wicos and even for A5200 sticks you get inconsistent values for center/left/right/etc. regardless of calibration.
No, it doesn't matter when your position is that digital joysticks provide better control
(vs. ease of programming) and it's a supposed scientific fact. That is a user evaluation, not a programmer evaluation. Maybe you're just not that good at programming for analog controls. You might as well include the extra difficulty in manufacturing and the extra components required for analog joysticks, like that would matter to the player using the joystick, either.
You misunderstood. Just quoting one game requiring analog and one game from digital doesn't make the joysticks equally in demand. You are voting if you had to choose. You do better in games where you have more control so you choose the joystick that provides better control. Nothing to do with laziness. Controllers are meant for controlling so no sense in picking analog because it gives you some speed feature but which one provides better control. If only digital joysticks existed, the few games that need analogicity would get adapted for digital.
If only analog joysticks existed, the games that didn't need your "analogicity" would continue to not benefit from it. Like 5200 Pac-Man.
You didn't understand the logic. You were using Paddle/trackball examples to promote the analog joystick. But the two are different so rethink your logic.
I am promoting analog controllers
, of which the analog joystick is one. I understand the logic fine. As stated by you, you seem to believe that all users would be in controller bliss if only they were restricted to one option wherein they always knew the state of their digital joystick, that they were certain that left could only mean left and up could only mean up and there were no fears of in-between positioning or states. Because, ya, that's what everybody talks about, right? What state is the joystick in?
In order to argue against that narrow-minded view it is necessary to discuss the differences and preferences between analog and digital in general. Otherwise why would any user ever prefer an analog joystick? You seem to think that it's really really really difficult for anyone to use an analog joystick with a digital style game. It isn't. It's annoying to get used to at first but so what.
Analog provides infinite control. Digital provides limited (two states per) control. It is possible to argue that an analog stick provides too much
input for a simple on/off requirement such as left, right, up, down, but it is absolutely wrong to claim that something that provides infinite results (through two analog POTs) provides worse control than something that provides limited results (through 4 or 8 on/off switches). It will be harder to master but if you want easy you should get someone else to play the game for you so you don't have to worry.
Your description shows you are not used to digital joysticks. In order to perform the experiment in an unbiased way, you have to be used to both controllers. Your experiment is biased and not controlled.
Your entire premise is biased and not controlled. Where do you get the idea that you know whether I'm used to digital joysticks or not? I have been playing video games and using digital and analog controls for them since arcade games and home consoles started. I'm used to all
controllers, not just joysticks. You assume that because someone can prefer an analog stick and explain why that he must therefore be biased? How biased are you with this digital joysticks provide better control/it's a scientific fact crap?
I am used to the right
controller for the job. Which has cost me lots of money because I have to own an actual arcade (tabletop) Tempest and Star Trek Strategic Operations Simulator in order to play my favorite games since using anything other than a spinner and buttons is a waste of my time. There is no way on Earth that you can convince me that Tempest would be just as good with a digital joystick. That's nuts. At least an analog joystick would get me close
. Still terrible but not as useless as a digital joystick.
Nothing to do with personal preference in regards to which provides better control. You take longer time to turn a POT to switch directions than move a stick handle of a digital joystick (sampling wise and moving it). So in games like Pac-man, you end up turning upon yourself (instead of going into another row), find it harder to wiggle away the monsters, etc.
Maybe you suffer from arthritis and assume that everyone else does, too. Do you think that moving a joystick such that it stops contacting one leaf switch or button and then contacts a different leaf switch or button is instantaneous
? Do you even know how an Atari 2600 physically operates? Do you believe it's impossible for a human being to be as fast left-to-right or up-and-down using an analog stick as he is with a digital stick? Just because you can't handle playing Pac-Man with an analog stick, just because it haunts your dreams and mocks your nervous system, doesn't mean that it's the case for everyone else. How fast do you think a game like Pac-Man is, anyway? It's not about speed, it's about accuracy, and once you figure out how to deal with an analog stick you can play digital controller games with analog controllers just fine. I know a game like Frogger is a pain to play on a 5200 initially but you get used to it. Now try Star Wars with a digital stick and see what a miserable experience that is.