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Preference: Commodore 64 or 64C?


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I have both models, the original breadbox 64:

SVIyl.jpg

 

 

And the revised 64C:

PH75u.jpg

 

 

 

Being a big AMIGA guy back in the day I find the later 64C to be closer to that design and I prefer it. However I have heard the chipset is slightly different in the 64C, the SID chip or something is not as accurate? Excuse my lack of knowledge,I am sure I will be corrected. Just wondered what most people prefer? I may sell one in future and it is hard to decide which to part with, your opinions and comments greatly welcomed THANKS!'

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Most people consider the SID versions in the breadbox to be better. Not everyone does. Many details out there if you're interested.

 

I like the C for ergonomics and breadbox for every other reason.

 

Since they're not worth much, I don't know why you'd consider selling either one if you only have 2 of them. They're not the most reliable machines, and one could go bad on you at any minute. If there's one machine you need a backup of, it's a C64. And that's coming from a big longtime C64 fan. Don't ask me how I know.

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I have both models, the original breadbox 64:

 

And the revised 64C:

 

Being a big AMIGA guy back in the day I find the later 64C to be closer to that design and I prefer it. However I have heard the chipset is slightly different in the 64C, the SID chip or something is not as accurate? Excuse my lack of knowledge,I am sure I will be corrected. Just wondered what most people prefer? I may sell one in future and it is hard to decide which to part with, your opinions and comments greatly welcomed THANKS!'

 

Of the two models you list, the original Commodore 64 breadbox is the better choice... it has a smaller footprint, the sound chip is better and it has the iconic shape and a more nostalgic flavor.

 

The 64C is stylized more like the Amiga 500 with the lower profile keyboard for more comfortable typing.

 

Though I have both models, my favorite by far, is the 3rd model of C64... the SX-64 portable!

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did commodore make any o/s changes in the c64 c then the c64, also did the c64 c get a new version of the 64's basic

 

All i recall is that the c64 c got a later version of SID...shame that commodore didn't use the 'stereo sid' version of SID in the c64 c....would have been nice

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There was never any commercially released Stereo SID in a single IC that I'm aware of - stereo SID normally implies a second SID chip in the same fashion we have stereo Pokey via addition of a second one.

 

The OS in C64s is for the most part universal. IIRC there are 3 revisions, maybe more, and don't think there's much difference among them.

 

One way of telling is via what happens if you clear the screen.

 

From memory:

One version populates all the colour attribute bytes with WHITE.

Another populates the colour attributes with whatever text colour is currently active.

And another populates the colour attributes with whatever background colour VIC-II is set to.

Edited by Rybags
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did commodore make any o/s changes in the c64 c then the c64, also did the c64 c get a new version of the 64's basic

 

Commodore took an "if it ain't broke" attitude to the C64 so it was never really changed in that sense, the only real differences between the old and new C64 boards apart from physical size was that the latter was cheaper to build; production shifted from NMOS to HMOS and the custom IC count was reduced by combining here and there (the BASIC and Kernel ROMs were combined into one that could be swapped for an EPROM, as demonstrated with the C64GS). Both cases can hold either board (there are screw holes for either, but the power LED changed sides and it's cable doesn't reach without extension after a swap out) and for a transitional period Commodore sold hybrids which had the new case and old board (i've got one... erm, somewhere).

 

The C64's BASIC didn't change during the transition to the C64C, there's at least one showstopper in the interpreter and the FRE command remained broken.

 

All i recall is that the c64 c got a later version of SID...shame that commodore didn't use the 'stereo sid' version of SID in the c64 c....would have been nice

 

The changes to the SID came about because of the process change, the most obvious differences are the repair of the voltage leak which was abused as a 4-bit DAC to play samples (which can be reintroduced on a C64C and to a degree at least programmed around), changes to the filters and the "accidental" addition of a new waveform which is a combination of two existing ones. i've never heard about a stereo SID, even the C64DX prototypes used two standard 8580s to generate six channel stereo.

 

As to which is better... it depends really, there's less to go wrong in a C64C and slightly more protection from the dafter things people tend to do with 8-bits, but the SID sound can really differ between the two and whilst most people prefer the older 6581 for samples and some of the more OTT filtering in tunes, there are some pretty amazing dance tracks released over about the last fifteen or so years that rely on the lighter touch of the 8580's filters and it's extra waveform. Me personally, i'd probably go with the breadbin as long as it can run some of the more vicious $d011 hammering.

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Wasn't there a user "fix" where you could put a switch and small circuit in to make the "new" filters sound more like the older ones?

 

What's this "$D011 hammering" ?

 

$D011 i think is a register address/location, hammering would be like using that address repeatedly or forcing to use it repeatedly. but i could be way off. as to what $D011 hammering actually means i don't have he slightest clue.

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Wasn't there a user "fix" where you could put a switch and small circuit in to make the "new" filters sound more like the older ones?

 

If it's the one i'm thinking of, those patches reintroduce the voltage leak that was abused to play samples. i've not heard of anyone managing to significantly change the filter ranges and if memory serves they're done internally by the SID itself; whilst there's variance in the filters between different batches of 6581, the 8580 is pretty much a constant on that front.

 

What's this "$D011 hammering" ?

 

$d011 is the vertical smooth scroll register, controls if the VIC-II is in character, extended colour character or bitmap mode and if the screen is turned on. It's probably the main register to give a kicking to for the majority of demo effects like upper and lower border removal, FLD, FLI and it's variants, VSP or linecrunching, all of which have bled over into games at some point.

 

Some C64C machines (and apparently a few of the original units, although "common knowledge" back in the day said it was exclusively a revised board thing) can't deal with the heavier abusers of this register like VSP (which delays the start of a badline horizontally to push the screen sideways) and particularly linecrunch (which causes eight pixel high screen lines to be all but skipped, essentially pulling the display upwards) which can be used for high speed wrap-around scrolling, so code using those techniques can crash and burn. There doesn't seem to be a consensus as to why these tricks go south as such, but the most convincing i remember reading is that a change in RAM speed means the DMA is trying to "read ahead" and not getting anything.

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Oops....stereo sid was the version of sid used in the proto'd c65 (only 1-2000 units of the sys. where ever made)

 

Nope, there's no stereo SID - the C65 used two 8580R5 chips, just doubling up on what the C64C had. i already mentioned it back in post 7 in fact, C64DX is the other name for the C65.

Edited by TMR
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I've never owned one, but I always liked the look of the 64C better.

 

Never had a C64 either -- mine was a C128D, and I loved the look of it. It had the feel of a 'modern' computer, with the keyboard that you could put in your lap, the built in drive, and the ability to rest a monitor on top of the computer.

Edited by SoulBlazer
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As far as the SID differences go, my buddy had an original and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

 

Depends what is being done, for simple sounds it won't make a difference as such but anything pushing the envelope ('scuse the pun) will most likely sound different between models. 4-bit samples play very quietly on a C64C so the intro to games like Outrun Europa or Savage, speech in Impossible Mission or Space Taxi or the in-games samples of Mega Apocalypse will all be very quiet on the C64C. Similarly, heavy filtering for tunes like Terra Cresta actually sound different between different 6581s, let alone how they come out on a C64C.

 

The good SID emulation engines all have options to select which SID they're pretending to be for this reason.

 

(As an aside, if you were listening to samples on a C64C it might be one of the units with the old board and 6581 SID in it. =-)

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I've got a C64 (one of the first 2200 models made, found in a thrift store and works), but for me I've always wanted to make it sound better by modding it for two 8580 chips and the digiboost enhancement for both. I've been reluctant to do so because of the fact I have an early-number model that works perfectly.

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Be careful about statements like "the Breadbox contains this" or "the C64C contains that" about different components. Commodore seems to have had an attitude of "whatever we've got lying around, put it in", so you've got lots of "mixed" components.

 

Some generalisations can be made though, apart from the old board in a new case hybrids i mentioned earlier Commodore didn't mix the generations of C64 all that much and i've never seen a breadbin with a short board that wasn't something i'd done when there was nothing on telly. =-)

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Sell both and get a C128. Same C64 compatibility, same great keyboard as the C64C, better power supply, more speed/ram, CPM compatability etc. The 1571 that almost always accompanies a C128 is worlds better than a 1541 too. Faster, quieter, more reliable, supports double sided disks, and even reads and writes DOS disks.

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Sell both and get a C128. Same C64 compatibility, same great keyboard as the C64C

 

It's not the same keyboard, the C64 and C64C use the same keyboard barring the key tops being cream for the latter (i've got a breadbin keyboard on my work C64C at the moment) - the C128 keyboard is better than the C64C.

 

The only down side to a C128 is that there's close to bugger all use for the extra RAM, faster CPU, 80 column mode and so forth; i loved my C128D when it was my main programming machine for the external keyboard and 2MHz mode (i modified the assembler i was using to use it) but if we're talking purely about gaming then there's simply no point trading in for a C128, a couple of titles won't work because they trip 2MHz on accidentally, the machine will spend all it's time in C64 mode and the 1571 won't get a chance to shine.

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