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ST/etc to VGA adapter/cable.. _for color_?


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#1 skeezix OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:42 PM

Its fairly easy to make a cable to run your ST/STacy/STE/Mega/etc to a regular PC VGA monitor and get _mono_ support (assuming you can find the right DIN connector for the ST side.) and hence there are numerous options on ebay etc over the years, or roll your own.

Is there any easy to get widget to get ST low/medium on a VGA monitor? (something direct; I'm betting ST -> composite -> VGA exists, but would suck :)

A TT030 or Falcon can go direct to VGA if memory serves, but for the earlier models, thats the trick :)

jeff

#2 Christos OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:10 PM

You need a scandoubler. Your best bet would be a tft/tv that accepts rgb (scart).

#3 wood_jl OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:10 PM

Search this ST Forum and there have been some discussions.

AA User "Darklord" has some experience with this; he's in those thread(s). I can't recall specifically, but it seems that this is a bit of a tall order - wanting a successful solution to the VGA conversion problem. If memory serves, there wasn't anything that left something to be desired.

I decided to stock up on SC1224s, but I'd still be curious about finding a workable VGA solution myself. 17" SVGA CRT monitors are now pretty much FREE; SC1224 is worth a hell of a lot more. However, one of these free Trinitron 17" would be great on the ST.

Darklord? Any new developments?

#4 Dal_1978 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:45 PM

Simbo on AF talked about a solution to replace (the shifter?) with a riser card and fpga chip. The theory I believe is that it behaves the same as far as the ST is concerned but also handles the scan doubling required for VGA output. All pie in the sky stuff at the moment, but he reckoned it was possible...

Edited by Dal_1978, Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:47 PM.


#5 skeezix OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:41 PM

Interesting idea there :)

I've got a couple colour and mono monitors locked away in the basement; every move I cut down on a few more toys .. but as I collect arcade machines, usually those take the hits ;) Most ST related gaming is within emulation, and ST's running on mono for other stuff. But it woudl be cool to just put up a VGA/DVI monitor, and switch between various sources nice and easily. Keeping a half dozen monitors for various machines around is just too goofy for the wife to handle ;) (She handles the arcade machines well enough, but can only be pushed so far ;)

I did find something interesting on good ol' Best Electronics site:
http://www.best-elec...om/monitors.htm

"For Color or Monochrome displays on the same Multi Sync Monitor using this Multi function Custom cable." .. but thats no good for modern LCD displays etc.

Hmmm..

jeff

#6 Thorsten GŁnther OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:20 PM

You will either need a SCART to HDMI converter and and Atari ST to SCART RGB cable or an RGB to VGA scandoubler and the appropriate cable. The alternatives are LCD TVs with built-in SCART plugs (they will all accept RGB through that connector, albeit not all of them will display a good picture), e.g. from eBay UK or very old (and I mean OLD) multi-frequency CRT monitors like the original NEC MultiSync (models II and 3D will also work), Eizo 9060S or the Mitsubishi EUM-1491A.

Many projectors will also work (if I read the specs correctly).

Thorsten

#7 DarkLord OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 1, 2011 3:08 PM

Search this ST Forum and there have been some discussions.

AA User "Darklord" has some experience with this; he's in those thread(s). I can't recall specifically, but it seems that this is a bit of a tall order - wanting a successful solution to the VGA conversion problem. If memory serves, there wasn't anything that left something to be desired.

I decided to stock up on SC1224s, but I'd still be curious about finding a workable VGA solution myself. 17" SVGA CRT monitors are now pretty much FREE; SC1224 is worth a hell of a lot more. However, one of these free Trinitron 17" would be great on the ST.

Darklord? Any new developments?


Yeah, this is a very ambiguous subject. There have been a lot of claims and promises,
along with theorys galore, but I, and I'm sure many others, are still waiting on an
ironclad, low-priced, easy to install, solution.

If you're a SCART user, it seems to be much easier to find something that works.

I can report that using the Ambery model as in this link:

http://www.ambery.co...bcgatovgac.html

I can use lo-res on every single LCD or CRT monitor I've tried. However, I've been
unable to get it to correctly do med-res on *any* LCD TV/monitor I've tried. The
colors are a bit washed out, and the text is...somewhat blurry with sections almost
missing. Now, I have got it to work correctly in lo and med-res on several regular
CRTs. Note that even on CRTs, at least one AOC 15" model wouldn't show med-res right
either. It was an older model, perhaps that had something to do with it.

I sincerely wish I could report better results, but it really seems to come down to
experimenting to try and find a combination that works. Which of course, can get very
expensive very quickly. If you're fortunate enough to live close to a vendor who would
allow you to bring your equipment in, and try their selection, that would be great. I
don't, unfortunately (in fact - we're so far up a hollow here in Eastern Kentucky that
our Saturday morning cartoons come in on Sunday). :)

An all-in-one, RGB to VGA scan doubler, like the Amiga has, is what we truly need. I
hope it sees the light of day eventually.

I hope this helps.

#8 remowilliams OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 1, 2011 3:25 PM

I use a SCART RGB cable and a SCART/component video converter. I actually use this method for a number of low rate RGB solutions - genesis/32x, saturn, dreamcast, etc. :)

Also thanks Jeff for all your awesome work on emulators!! Had a lot of fun on the GP2X port. :cool:

Now only if I had a Pandora to play the ST on. Soon it will be two entire years past the order date... yay!

#9 poobah OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 1, 2011 9:15 PM


Search this ST Forum and there have been some discussions.

AA User "Darklord" has some experience with this; he's in those thread(s). I can't recall specifically, but it seems that this is a bit of a tall order - wanting a successful solution to the VGA conversion problem. If memory serves, there wasn't anything that left something to be desired.

I decided to stock up on SC1224s, but I'd still be curious about finding a workable VGA solution myself. 17" SVGA CRT monitors are now pretty much FREE; SC1224 is worth a hell of a lot more. However, one of these free Trinitron 17" would be great on the ST.

Darklord? Any new developments?


Yeah, this is a very ambiguous subject. There have been a lot of claims and promises,
along with theorys galore, but I, and I'm sure many others, are still waiting on an
ironclad, low-priced, easy to install, solution.

If you're a SCART user, it seems to be much easier to find something that works.

I can report that using the Ambery model as in this link:

http://www.ambery.co...bcgatovgac.html

I can use lo-res on every single LCD or CRT monitor I've tried. However, I've been
unable to get it to correctly do med-res on *any* LCD TV/monitor I've tried. The
colors are a bit washed out, and the text is...somewhat blurry with sections almost
missing. Now, I have got it to work correctly in lo and med-res on several regular
CRTs. Note that even on CRTs, at least one AOC 15" model wouldn't show med-res right
either. It was an older model, perhaps that had something to do with it.

I sincerely wish I could report better results, but it really seems to come down to
experimenting to try and find a combination that works. Which of course, can get very
expensive very quickly. If you're fortunate enough to live close to a vendor who would
allow you to bring your equipment in, and try their selection, that would be great. I
don't, unfortunately (in fact - we're so far up a hollow here in Eastern Kentucky that
our Saturday morning cartoons come in on Sunday). :)

An all-in-one, RGB to VGA scan doubler, like the Amiga has, is what we truly need. I
hope it sees the light of day eventually.

I hope this helps.


Well, once the holidays are done and work is caught up, i plan to start work on the shifter replacement we were talking about on atari-forum.

#10 DarkLord OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 1, 2011 10:41 PM

Well, once the holidays are done and work is caught up, i plan to start work on the shifter replacement we were talking about on atari-forum.


Man, all I can say is that would be awesome! :)

#11 Dal_1978 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 2, 2011 7:07 AM

Yes agreed - anything that provides a future proof chip replacement option is a good thing. Best Electronics will run out of chips eventually! Not to mention the opportunities for present day output options (HDMI might be overkill though!) :)

#12 DarkLord OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 2, 2011 2:39 PM

Yeah, Best Electronics is just awesome. I can remember Brad talking
about how, when Atari Corp. folded, that he bought as much as he
could from them.

At that time, IIRC, he stated that he would still have parts 20
years after Atari Corp was gone.

I believe he's gonna make that claim...but do the math...its getting
close now. :)

#13 skeezix OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 2, 2011 7:24 PM

remo -- you are of course very welcome .. I'm glad you enjoyed all those hacks of mine :) And with Hatari, there'll never really be a shortage of ST emulation goodness, but I like to think I did my part in the days before wristwatches being 400mhz ;)

remo -- you mean ST -> SCART adapter -> SCART to component adapter -> whatever? Thats pretty neat; we all love having 10 part adapter chains :) IS there a ST to SCART adapter commonly around? Sounds like a not too expensive option, as well.

DarkLord -- that ambery adapter .. you say thats _always worked_ for ST to low res on any TV/LCD target? If so, might be an option. Pricey little bastard, but I'm too lazy/busy to make one myself these days :) Might be handy for other projects as well (I do a lot of arcade cabinet hacking, so thats an option .. though I usually do the reverse.. keep ancient arcade monitors in the machines, and then the trick is to find a video card that can talk such low hz :)
edit: Also DL .. did you just buy a ST DIN monitor plug and drop wires over to a VGA connector, or did you have some trick to adapt ST to Ambery?

Really, Dungeon Master on a 50" LCD or on a 100" projection TV.. now thats the stuff :) But just avoiding having multiple monitors for multiple devices makes things so much easier to work with .. monitors take up space :)

jeff

Edited by skeezix, Sun Jan 2, 2011 8:18 PM.


#14 DarkLord OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 2, 2011 8:30 PM

Its worked with every TV/LCD monitor/CRT in lo-res, that I've

---> tried <---. Please note the "tried" part. :)

Yeah, it is a bit steep in price.

Cables...right, I got Techie-Alison at AtariForum to make me
a cable for it. Works fine. One end plugs into the Atari color
monitor port on the ST (or in my case, my STacy), and the other
end is a VGA style plug that connects to the Ambery. If you go
on down the page at the Ambery website, they'll show you some
examples of the cables, with pictures and diagrams.

HTHs.

PS Yeah, Dungeon Master at that level would be killer. I'd also
like it with a good surround sound system, for when things screech
at you, doors thump open, etc...just too cool. :)

#15 Shredder11 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 3, 2011 4:07 PM

Unfortunately due to the Atari-Forum.com being down at the moment, I cannot point you to the excellent topic there about connecting the ST low/med/mono modes to any CRT/LCD monitor. I posted my results of using the Geniatech Supera Color HD video adapter box which is a mere $55 USA and along with a few extra bits, is a very cheap solution.

Geniatech Supera Color HD - DealToWorld Chinese website $55 or £35



#16 remowilliams OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 3, 2011 5:05 PM

remo -- you mean ST -> SCART adapter -> SCART to component adapter -> whatever? Thats pretty neat; we all love having 10 part adapter chains :) IS there a ST to SCART adapter commonly around? Sounds like a not too expensive option, as well.


It's an ST RGB SCART cable hooked to a SCART/component adapter, which then provides component video for the variety of things I have with component connectors - plasma, LCD, CRT,etc.

There's actually one more bit in there which is a SCART selector switchbox, since I have a number of 15khz RGB systems that can hook up this way (and it provides handy audio separation as well) :)

I've also tried a SCART/HDMI converter, but the results of the additional video processing were nasty looking to me...

#17 skeezix OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 3, 2011 9:05 PM

Shredder11 -- looks like a pretty awesome little box.

Are you using an original ST that has composite out to feed it, or some ST monitor plug to VGA type wire-harness you've made yourself?

I'll have to check what ports a STacy has on it.. thats my main normal-ST these days; my full size STs are all in various stages of disrepair :(

jeff

#18 skeezix OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 4, 2011 2:01 PM

A crazy option is to use a laptop as te display; why bother adding another monitor to your desk at all, just re-use your laptops display and get a TV tuner or capture card .. hmm. An ol ATI All in Wonder or TV Wonder could do it, and looks like there was a USB model back around 2005.. not sure if still around. Still --

Consider:
http://www.newegg.co...N82E16815116031 -- $55 isn't half bad, and you get a TV tuner for your laptop :)

Some crazy options exist such as a $300 VGA input over USB .. http://www.epiphan.c...abbers/vga2usb/

Oooh, this bad boy looks great -- Svideo, Composite and Coax inputs and $55 -- http://www.newegg.co...N82E16815306019

We all probably have old CRTs around anyway, however :)

jeff

#19 Shredder11 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 4, 2011 6:40 PM

Shredder11 -- looks like a pretty awesome little box.

Are you using an original ST that has composite out to feed it, or some ST monitor plug to VGA type wire-harness you've made yourself?

I'll have to check what ports a STacy has on it.. thats my main normal-ST these days; my full size STs are all in various stages of disrepair Posted Image

jeff



Yes it is and I am using it with an STE (PAL UK) using it's monitor out via a SCART cable; this connects to a SCART adapter with a female SCART input and then is output via S-Video (or Composite) to the Supera Color HD box; finally out of the DB15 monitor output to a CRT or LCD TFT monitor, which is preferably 4:3 ratio and 1280 x 1024 resolution. I also have a monitor switch box that plugs into the STE monitor output and then the SCART and mono VGA cables come out of that. The mono VGA cable goes from the STE straight into the Supera box too.

I managed to find the Atari-Forum topic in the Google cached results; I cannot seem to access all of the topic but some of my photos can be seen still:

ST to VGA - Success :)

#20 Maverick OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 6, 2011 3:50 PM

From the reviews I've seen of the Ambery model online, it works great for conversion of any 15khz RGB to standard VGA. I didn't like the price, so I went looking for a cheaper alternative.

Google led me to a company called Extron that has made industrial-level scan converters/doublers for a number of years. Some of their old models can be had off of ebay in perfectly working order for ~$30USD, sometimes with cables, sometimes without. Even if they don't have cables, monoprice.com has everything necessary for dirt cheap.

I picked up an Extron unit that takes a 9-pin RGB input (TTL/RGBS) and outputs it to a BNC connection compatible with SVGA. A $7 cable later (BNC to female VGA), I had my Amiga and my IBM PC w/ CGA working on my LCD. FWIW, I haven't made an adapter for my 520/1040ST computers yet, as I've only recently acquired them, and have yet to place an order for the 13-pin DIN on the ST's monitor port so I can make my cables (I want one to go to a 9-pin RGB so I can use my old Magnavox-80/C=1084 as well as a VGA cable)

If you go the Extron route like me, just be careful to research your model and it's connections thoroughly - they had a LOT of specialty products.

Edited by Maverick, Thu Jan 6, 2011 3:53 PM.


#21 ijor OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 6, 2011 7:57 PM

Yes it is and I am using it with an STE (PAL UK) using it's monitor out via a SCART cable; this connects to a SCART adapter with a female SCART input and then is output via S-Video (or Composite) to the Supera Color HD box;


If it indeed uses the composite signal of the ST, then I'm not sure the whole thing make sense. You would get a similar result just connecting directly the ST composite output to a good quality TVLCD with integrated scan doubler.

The whole point of using a scan doubler to VGA adapter, is, IMHO, to be able to use the RGB output of the ST.

Regarding SCART, which is a great, please let's remember that SCART is common in Europe. Most TVs or monitors in the US don't have SCART.

#22 1024MAK OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 7, 2011 4:54 AM

See the video section here: http://info-coach.fr...dware/video.php

For low and medium resolutions the highest quality video signals from an Atari ST/STF/STFM/STE etc are the RGB signals.
The next best (that is the "middle") quality signal is the composite video signal (that includes colour information). Be aware that this signal is only present on machines that have a TV modulator (and therefore a UHF TV output).
The lowest quality signal is the UHF TV signal from the modulator.

Atari ST/STF/STFM/STE etc do not produce s-video signals.

All the video signals listed above are at the TV standard frame and line rates (15 kHz Horizontal, 50/60 Hz Vertical) and are now "out of range" as far as "modern" SVGA monitors are concerned (as they are built only for SVGA and better signals). They are also not to the full TV video picture standard.

So most converter boxes and monitors do not like the video signals from the Atari machines...

Edited by 1024MAK, Fri Jan 7, 2011 5:14 AM.


#23 oky2000 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 7, 2011 7:09 AM

What you need is either a scan doubler for the RGB SCART output stuck on the monitor port OR an internal adaptor similar to the Indivision solution for Amigas.

Mono only works because it is already a 30-32khz horizontal refresh rate, but as others have said the low/med resolutions are 16khz horizontal refresh rates.

#24 DarkLord OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 4, 2011 10:56 PM

Well, once the holidays are done and work is caught up, i plan to start work on the shifter replacement we were talking about on atari-forum.


<bump>

Any updates on this? Or has anyone else heard anything from KJmann and
his VGA adaptor?

Thanks.

#25 poobah OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Mar 5, 2011 7:04 AM


Well, once the holidays are done and work is caught up, i plan to start work on the shifter replacement we were talking about on atari-forum.


<bump>

Any updates on this? Or has anyone else heard anything from KJmann and
his VGA adaptor?

Thanks.


I've got my devboard back out, but it will be a couple three weeks before I get back on it.

I haven't heard anymore on KJman's adapter, though I suspect he's had difficulty with it. The ST video signal is both amazing and completely screwed up. Feeding it straight to an analog device usually works. Trying to do anything to it in a digital realm is frought with danger. It really is amazing how the ST designers came up with the pixel clock and still managed to generate an almost NTSC signal.




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