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#26 Underball OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:42 AM

Make some XM game announcements with projected release dates. As of right now there is still only 1 game being worked on that is a XM game - Dungeon.


There are two. Fruitarian was announced last week and is XM only.

Everything else is HSC but not XM, or a pokey sound hack, neither of which require an XM. The rest are all rumored/cancelled vaporware that will likely never see that light of day.


In your opinion.

so then change my opinion if you disagree with it by letting us know what else is coming.

#27 GroovyBee OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:47 AM

so then change my opinion if you disagree with it by letting us know what else is coming.


Why should I change your opinion? Developers will announce when they are ready to and not before. As I've suggested many times before why don't you privately fund your own development team for the 7800 if you want games quicker. You seem to forget that retro game development is done in our free time. I don't complain or whine about what you do in your free time so what gives you the right to complain/whine about what I do?

#28 Mord OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:04 AM

I really don't think asking to know what other games are coming out is grumbling. And if you read around, my opinion is hardly that rare either.


Well, to be fair you're asking.... and that's not the grumbling part. But what comes after you ask for updates tends to be the grumbling.

#29 Underball OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:09 AM

so then change my opinion if you disagree with it by letting us know what else is coming.


Why should I change your opinion?

Because the people who are paying for this project to happen are the people who are buying it. I know Curt put a ton of his own money into it to get ti off teh ground, but Curt as also updated us with every tiny aspect of it's development so far.

At this point, the people who are paying for this project to continue happening are the people who are pre/buying it. That would include me if information about games were being made more forthcoming.

Also - Because almost every other time I come to check the "status update XM" thread, instead of getting a status update, I'm getting solicitation for more purchases of an unfinished product, and no updates on games.

If you want people's money to help move the project along, give them more than 1 game's worth of reason to do so.

Supply & Demand. The basic principle of Capitalism. I don't really see this as grumbling. Prospective customers need a compelling reason to buy in. I'm (and quite a few others) are asking for that compelling reason.

And if you think it's just me, go look at the last 5-6 posts of this thread:

http://www.atariage....es/page__st__50

Edited by Underball, Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:15 AM.


#30 GroovyBee OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:22 AM

Also - Because almost every other time I come to check the "status update XM" thread, instead of getting a status update, I'm getting solicitation for more purchases of an unfinished product, and no updates on games.


Apart from the last XM game announcement you already missed :roll:.

If you want people's money to help move the project along, give them more than 1 game's worth of reason to do so.


There are 2 XM only games now.

And if you think it's just me, go look at the last 5-6 posts of this thread:


So thats 4 people vs the 200 or so that have the faith :roll:.

#31 Underball OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:30 PM

Faith? LOL!

So are we buying a consumer product, or a religion? I'm not real big on the occult. I prefer tangible evidence. Preferably in black plastic cartridge form.

#32 ApolloBoy OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:57 PM

Faith? LOL!

So are we buying a consumer product, or a religion? I'm not real big on the occult. I prefer tangible evidence. Preferably in black plastic cartridge form.

The 7800XM hasn't even been released yet, give it time. You acting this way towards Mark isn't going to help.

Also, why do I get the feeling that Underball's avatar represents exactly who he is?

Edited by ApolloBoy, Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:58 PM.


#33 jaybird3rd ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:35 PM

So are we buying a consumer product, or a religion? I'm not real big on the occult. I prefer tangible evidence. Preferably in black plastic cartridge form.

How many guaranteed, XM-exclusive (or XM-enhanced) titles would you need to see before the XM would be "worth buying" to you? And what genres would have to be represented?

#34 Underball OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:35 PM

I'm not acting any way towards Mark. I'm discussing the fact that there haven't been barely any game announcements. Mark chooses to reply to that by getting defensive and rolling his eyes, that's his choice. I'm not attacking him or anyone else.

#35 Jinks OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:43 PM

I'm not acting any way towards Mark. I'm discussing the fact that there haven't been barely any game announcements. Mark chooses to reply to that by getting defensive and rolling his eyes, that's his choice. I'm not attacking him or anyone else.

It will take time, if your a 30 something Atari nerd like most everyone here you should be able to handle waiting for games to be made. Mark is working on a couple of them what more do you or anyone need to know. Make the games yourself and we can ask every day on when will it be done. We already waited 26 or so years whats another month or year in the big picture?

#36 Underball OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:15 PM

So are we buying a consumer product, or a religion? I'm not real big on the occult. I prefer tangible evidence. Preferably in black plastic cartridge form.

How many guaranteed, XM-exclusive (or XM-enhanced) titles would you need to see before the XM would be "worth buying" to you? And what genres would have to be represented?

Volume of titles isn't even the issue. Quality is. So far it looks as if Dungeon is the only title so far that has features that are XM dependent. And really, we can't even tell if that's the case, because all we've seen are still screen shots.

How about a YouTube preview?

Fruitarian doesn't interest me.

I want to see tangible evidence of a game that interests me, but more importantly - that looks like it definitely benefits from a $100 system add-on, and isn't just a pokey hack that would run just fine on a cc2, h2, or hacked ballblazer cart - without needing the XM.

I want to see something that makes me say "wow, I gotta get that game!"

So far, I havent seen that, yet. Which is why I keep asking to see what else is coming.

Edited by Underball, Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:16 PM.


#37 The Usotsuki OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:47 PM

The XM will mean more to me when there's dox and a finalized keyboard attachment, but I do have plans for that time.

#38 Mord OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:52 AM

Also - Because almost every other time I come to check the "status update XM" thread, instead of getting a status update, I'm getting solicitation for more purchases of an unfinished product, and no updates on games.

If you want people's money to help move the project along, give them more than 1 game's worth of reason to do so.


You seem to be thinking the people doing the "solicitation" are directly involved with the project rather than just people pumped about it and wanting to see it sell well for the sake of a 7800 homebrew project (hardware in this case) do well...

#39 ATARI7800fan OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:01 AM

So are we buying a consumer product, or a religion? I'm not real big on the occult. I prefer tangible evidence. Preferably in black plastic cartridge form.

How many guaranteed, XM-exclusive (or XM-enhanced) titles would you need to see before the XM would be "worth buying" to you? And what genres would have to be represented?


I would say 5 or more. I would say side scrolling platformers and beat em ups. I grew up with a SNES and Genesis, so I grew up with platformers like Sonic, Mario, TMNT-Turtles in time, Streets of Rage,Donkey Kong country,Wolfchild, basically the genres that the 7800 was missing when the NES was popular, I even bought a Nintendo Wii just for Donkey Kong country returns, sonic colors, and Goldeneye. Plus I know the 7800 has the capability to do those types of games, Tremial was just to cheap to invest the time into making those games, so now we can.

Edited by ATARI7800fan, Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:02 AM.


#40 GroovyBee OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:27 AM

I would say 5 or more.


Lets look at the maths :-

A moderate to complex game will take up to 300 hours to program (maybe even more).
Artwork for the game (if you have an artist on board) maybe another 30 hours (or more).
Sound effects/music (if you have a musician on board) again up to 20 hours or so.
Plus time for game testing, getting carts made, label artwork etc.

So that's around 350 hours per game and one or more people working on a game. For 5 games that's 1750 hours of free time to find. Given the small developer scene in the 7800 world and factoring in real life that's a ton of work.

#41 GroovyBee OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:35 AM

Emphasis mine :-

Volume of titles isn't even the issue. Quality is. So far it looks as if Dungeon is the only title so far that has features that are XM dependent.


That you know of.

And really, we can't even tell if that's the case, because all we've seen are still screen shots.


Some people have seen more :lol: :ponder:.

How about a YouTube preview?


I don't do YouTube.

Fruitarian doesn't interest me.


Its still an XM only game whether you like it ot not.

I want to see tangible evidence of a game that interests me, but more importantly - that looks like it definitely benefits from a $100 system add-on, and isn't just a pokey hack that would run just fine on a cc2, h2, or hacked ballblazer cart - without needing the XM.


I suggest that you get to grips with programming the 7800 if you want games quicker.

So far, I havent seen that, yet. Which is why I keep asking to see what else is coming.


You don't just ask, you go on to whine and complain when you don't get the answer that you want.

#42 Mirage OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:35 AM

It seems to me that you guys are just talking about the difference between early adopters and later adopters.

I'm a later adopter for this sort of retro-thing myself. I probably could have worded what I said in the other thread a little better. In no way do I want to discourage an effort like this, it's awesome! I was saying that if some of the developers released information about potential upcoming projects, it might push me (and others) more toward earlier adoption rather than later (or not at all). That's it! BUT, I understand that each developer may have their own reasons for not wanting to announce or share yet, and that's fine too.

I hope to see many good things come of this. There certainly seems to be strong enough interest for that to be the case.

#43 GaryH917 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:24 AM

I'm not acting any way towards Mark. I'm discussing the fact that there haven't been barely any game announcements. Mark chooses to reply to that by getting defensive and rolling his eyes, that's his choice. I'm not attacking him or anyone else.

Youve stated your displeasure numerous times now? It gets annoying hearing the same whining over and over again. Why continuously ask the same question over and over again when you know the answer? Wait till it comes out, then decide if you wanna buy one... Ive purchased one and am happy with its progress up to this point. Your complaining does nothing but discourage those working on this project. I would roll my eyes too being asked the same thing 50 times...

#44 Underball OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:22 AM

Emphasis mine :-

Volume of titles isn't even the issue. Quality is. So far it looks as if Dungeon is the only title so far that has features that are XM dependent.


That you know of.


So for all intents and purposes, they don't exist.

And really, we can't even tell if that's the case, because all we've seen are still screen shots.


Some people have seen more :lol: :ponder:.


see above.

How about a YouTube preview?


I don't do YouTube.


That's too bad. it would be nice to see some of these double secret probation games in action.

Fruitarian doesn't interest me.


Its still an XM only game whether you like it ot not.


might be. might not be. can't tell from a still image screen shot.

I want to see tangible evidence of a game that interests me, but more importantly - that looks like it definitely benefits from a $100 system add-on, and isn't just a pokey hack that would run just fine on a cc2, h2, or hacked ballblazer cart - without needing the XM.


I suggest that you get to grips with programming the 7800 if you want games quicker.


...and here is where the impasse happens. I graciously provided you with the source code to the PSP port of Prosystem, well over a year ago. You claimed you were making updates to prosystem to make it even more accurate, and wanted to incorporate all known ports of it, so they would be all from one unified source. We shared info back and forth. IT was a GREAT idea.

and then... nothing. I never heard from you. I asked what was going on and you REFUSED to give me any information. You were rude to me, and told me to stop asking you because it wasn't my business anymore, and that it would "be released when it's finished".

But NOW - you're telling me I need to learn to program for the XM, if I want good XM games. Yet you FLAT OUT REFUSED to share the updated source code with me, for the ONLY TOOL needed to test code, even though I provided you with mine in GOOD FAITH.

So if you really want me to learn how to program for the XM - then you will DO WHAT YOU SAID YOU WOULD WITH THE SOURCE CODE, and provide me with a working copy. It's easy for you to sit there and sarcastically mock anyone who dares ask what's going on. But what you did was untrustworthy. You asked for source code I worked on, and when I provided it in good faith, you didn't return the favor.

Yet you expect people to be patient and understanding.

So far, I havent seen that, yet. Which is why I keep asking to see what else is coming.


You don't just ask, you go on to whine and complain when you don't get the answer that you want.

When I was polite you ignored my requests to keep your promises.

#45 GroovyBee OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:44 AM

So for all intents and purposes, they don't exist.


Not to the people that have privately beta tested they don't :lol:.

might be. might not be. can't tell from a still image screen shot.


As the author of that game I can pretty much say that it is XM only.

...and here is where the impasse happens. I graciously provided you with the source code to the PSP port of Prosystem, well over a year ago.


Get your facts straight. You PM'd me a link to the publicly available source code on the net back in April last year.

and then... nothing. I never heard from you. I asked what was going on and you REFUSED to give me any information. You were rude to me, and told me to stop asking you because it wasn't my business anymore, and that it would "be released when it's finished".


I also added that I don't release code that I'm not happy with.

Emphasis mine :-

But NOW - you're telling me I need to learn to program for the XM, if I want good XM games. Yet you FLAT OUT REFUSED to share the updated source code with me, for the ONLY TOOL needed to test code, even though I provided you with mine in GOOD FAITH.


And again I'll add "that you know of". I use lots of custom tools that haven't been released yet.

Just because things haven't been announced doesn't mean nothing is happening.

#46 Underball OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:53 AM

The publically released code link I provided to you was a link to a post I Posted Here with source code changes and updates that I made.

It was made publicly available because I posted it. The original author, ZX-81, aka Ludovic abandoned it when he moved of from PSP programming to the Dingoo. We worked on the original release together, and I kept the project alive with updates I made and posted here after he moved on.

I suggest you get YOUR facts straight.

And none of this changes the fact that you are refusing to supply tools, yet telling people to program their own games if they aren't satisfied.

Edited by Underball, Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:13 AM.


#47 jaybird3rd ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:58 AM

I want to see something that makes me say "wow, I gotta get that game!" So far, I havent seen that, yet. Which is why I keep asking to see what else is coming.

So far, two things seem clear. One is that you've made multiple posts about how there have been "hardly any announced games" for the XM and that you "don't understand the point (of the XM) without more games," yet the real issue seems to be that you simply haven't seen any games that suit you: you've brushed off the titles that have been announced because they "don't interest you." The other is that you seem to have other issues with Mark, and that this is affecting your overall perception of the XM because of Mark's involvement in it. These might be reasons why you might not want the XM, but they don't apply to anyone else, so I really don't know why you keep posting about this. If you don't want it, don't buy it, ignore the threads that have been written about it, and leave it at that.

I'd also suggest that you remember that homebrew developers are not commercial video game publishers who are in business to make the games you want to play. It's easy to write a post saying "man, I gotta have fighting games ... I gotta have platform games ...", but it's a lot more work to actually write the games, and your requests will fall on deaf ears if the games you want aren't the games that 7800 homebrewers are already interested in making. The idea that "you should build it yourself if you really want it so badly" isn't unique to the 7800 or the XM, nor is it "rude" or "condescending"; it's always been one of the standing rules of homebrew development.

#48 Wickeycolumbus OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:07 AM

Whatever way you look at it, this attitude of secrecy is certainly not attracting customers or developers.

#49 Underball OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:08 AM

I wouldn't be asking to see more games if I wasn't interested in it. I am. If I weren't interested, I would just ignore it.

The issues with Mark are all his. I simply asked what other games are coming and he makes sarcastic, condescending remarks in reply. His game Dungeon does look interesting to me, what little we've seen of it. But one game doesn't warrant buying the system to me.

What I don't get is all the secrecy. If programmers aren't ready to announce titles yet, fine. But Mark keeps jabbing away with snarky comments like "that you know of".

Well, by all means, enlighten us, dude.

Really, I wouldn't even have brought the whole shared source code argument into this if he didn't publicly challenge me to make my own XM games.

I'm trying to be as polite as possible here. Mark is clearly doing the opposite, yet he's allowed to be condescending and rude, and it's my fault? C'mon.

Edited by Underball, Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:15 AM.


#50 Underball OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:09 AM

Whatever way you look at it, this attitude of secrecy is certainly not attracting customers or developers.

thank you.




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