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#1251 Atarifever OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:32 AM

Totally see where you're coming from, we're waiting *and stressing like hell" on Amazon pulling the pending status on our book to go live and get our copies shipped to CGE, otherwise we are going to plan B, once I get back, the XM is my whole life until Mark and I wrap it up and get them out, besides I have a whole garage filled with XM's waiting to be assembled and my wife wants our garage back too, so I can tell, I more then everyone else wants this done and these bad boys shipped....

I am feeling your pain! My garage is full of arcades,all three bays. the wife wanted the same as yours.. so I bought here a remote starter! In all seriousness I clean the snow off, etc for her,but the garage is for Arcades!

Wait, don't you guys get sheds where you are? I mean, she'll never, ever want to go there, I promise. Mine is full of tools, the lawn mower, the kids seasonal toys, and a little entertainment centre with a 2600 and TV. When all else fails, go out to the shed to work on a project. Like Defender 2. Or Battlezone. And my wife likes Videogames. Imagine how much use it'll be for the rest of you!

#1252 Jinks OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 2, 2012 7:38 PM

So hows xm work going after one weeks work? Any progress?

#1253 Jaynz OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 10:29 AM

Whew.. one long thread to read through.

Curt, I'm going to be frank here, and this is not to impugn you in any way. But I were completely coming into this raw and seeing years of delays, refusals to post videos of product, many 'almost there' posts, several snits, and more than a few 'the refund check is in the mail - once you post on the forums', I honestly wouldn't have any confidence that this product, for which you have taken several thousand dollars in cash for, will ever come to fruition. Fortunately, for you, I have not come into this raw.

But even then, I really don't see the XM ever actually showing up into people's homes. It seems like you will always have 'one more thing' to do, or some other priority that comes up, and the product will be perpetually just one step from being done. Even your most die-hard supporters in this thread are beginning to give up. And while a few people may flame me for this, the fact remains that we're hitting year three in delays and 'almost there's' for this module. And, honestly, that is the very definition of vaporware.

So the only piece of advice that I can give you right now is to make damn sure this product gets out the door and into the hands of people who paid for it, as close to immediately as possible. No more 'just one more thing' issues, no more 'the book has to come first' posts. You must, for the sake of your own reputation, devote a block of serious time and out to ship these puppies. For your own sake, don't you really think it makes more sense to knock this one out of the park so you can move on fully to other projects?

#1254 NightSprinter OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 12:42 PM

Jaynz, seriously just put a cork in it. This is a HOBBY, for HOBBYISTS. The man said he's not even breaking even on this. He's already come close to giving up because of posts like yours. If you pre-ordered, be patient. If not, then don't post drivel like this. He's gone through a lot of hell physically and otherwise (especially given he nearly DIED halfway into this project from heart complications). Cut him some slack, and let the man do what he does.

#1255 Jaynz OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 1:06 PM

NightSprinter, no. I'm sorry, but I see that this is a very valid concern. It is no longer a hobby when you've accepted $20,000 and you're closing on two years late on your delivery. (That's assuming 200 pre-orders at $100 a piece). When someone takes money there is a responsibility to follow through, period, even if he's operating at a loss. The moment you take someone else's cash, you are honor bound to deliver. Occaisional delays are acceptable, but it's really long past time for the product to be delivered, and well past time for slack.

And no amount of flaming (which you're doing) is going to change that fact. Telling people to 'shut up' doesn't aid Curt or anyone else, but it does make Curt look worse when legitimate concerns and questions are dog-piled upon. It fact, saying this as someone without a vested dog in this fight, it actually does make him look criminal. I'm not accusing him of this, but the behavior of more than one person in this thread really does make this whole XM expansion look like a scam.

Anyone who states a legitimate concern about this should not immediately be greeted by threats, demands, and name-calling. It does nothing but make AtariAge, Curt, and the hobby look untrustworthy.

#1256 Mot OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 1:43 PM

I for one am very grateful to Curt for what he has done for Atari enthusiasts. Please take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia....Atari_Flashback

It was designed by Atari veteran Curt Vendel, whose company Legacy Engineering Group designs other home video game and video arcade products. Atari Inc. gave Legacy Engineering ten weeks to design the product, produce its games, and ready it for the 2004 Winter holiday season.

Curt Vendel and Legacy Engineering returned to develop the Flashback 2. Unlike the original Flashback console, the Flashback 2 contains a single-chip version of circuitry designed by Vendel

and the products at:
http://www.legacyengineer.com/


Listen when someone takes money here for a product, we all know that there is no absolute guarantee that it will actually get made but the person will give back our money if it does not happen.

Did you look at the status page with video showing the thing running?

http://www.atarimuse...7800/expansion/


Do you want him to put out a rushed product? Or one with all the i’s dotted and the t’s crossed?

#1257 Jaynz OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 1:54 PM

Mot, again, as someone who does not actually have a dog in this fight. Looking at this thread, the lack of product, the money involved, and the fact that every last warning flag for fraud is tripped, can you honestly not understand why so many people are - to put it politely - more than a little skeptical of the legitimacy of this product? Again, I'm not accusing Curt of actually commiting fraud, but I am pointing out that it's very easy to understand why someone would begin to question what's actually going on at this point. I'm also pointing out that dogpiling on anyone who just asks what's going on just makes the situation look that much worse.

And at this point, this is no longer a 'rushed' product, by any definition, and judging by the status, it's only got a handful of understandible compatibility issues. It is, perhaps, a textbook example of "perfect being the enemy of good". I'm just saying that it's best for everyone involved that this product be 'thrown on the trucks' as soon as possible so things can move on.

#1258 davidcalgary29 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 2:15 PM

Mot, again, as someone who does not actually have a dog in this fight. Looking at this thread, the lack of product, the money involved, and the fact that every last warning flag for fraud is tripped, can you honestly not understand why so many people are - to put it politely - more than a little skeptical of the legitimacy of this product?


This is an allegation that shouldn't be made without some real evidence.

Again, I'm not accusing Curt of actually commiting fraud,


Well yes, you are.

but I am pointing out that it's very easy to understand why someone would begin to question what's actually going on at this point. I'm also pointing out that dogpiling on anyone who just asks what's going on just makes the situation look that much worse.


Curt hasn't posted a reply to your comments. I can't see how a third-party hobbyist's defence will make the situation 'look worse'.

And at this point, this is no longer a 'rushed' product, by any definition, and judging by the status, it's only got a handful of understandible compatibility issues. It is, perhaps, a textbook example of "perfect being the enemy of good". I'm just saying that it's best for everyone involved that this product be 'thrown on the trucks' as soon as possible so things can move on.


I think that everything that's needed to be said about this project's delays has already been posted, so what's the point? It seems that Curt has been fair about returning money to customers who have not been satisfied with this delay, and why would non-customers care? I appreciate your concern for me and everyone else who pre-ordered, but if I want to complain, I'll take my complaint to Curt himself. :)

#1259 Mot OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 2:28 PM

http://www.atarimuse...7800/7800-20th/

Please listen to the mp3 with the creators of the 7800, put together by Curt someone (The guy who put solder points in the Flashback 2 for Atariage people to put a cartridge slot.)

I really think this thing is coming out before Christmas.

#1260 Jaynz OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 2:29 PM

This is an allegation that shouldn't be made without some real evidence.

What? That warning flags have been tripped? The numerous posts of refunds not being given until they were publically requested is a key one - and that's easily found in this thread. Long time refusals to post videos of the work. The heavy amounts of secrecy around releases and products. The long periods of no responses, et al. These are all well publicized warning flags. They're all tripped. Even if each incident is perfectly acceptable, it is, on the surface, very much a worrying trend.

Well yes, you are.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that it's perfectly understandible that someone could come to that conclusion based the news given in this thread. There's a big difference in what I'm saying and what you're wanting to defend Curt from. At worst, I really think he's unwilling to let the baby out of the crib.

Curt hasn't posted a reply to your comments. I can't see how a third-party hobbyist's defence will make the situation 'look worse'.

By ushering in greater hostility to anyone who asks legitimate questions, it's a deflection from those questions. These defenses may have the best of intentions, but to an outsider, they more frequently than not look like they're angrily hiding something - like a criminal on the stand who's mad at the prosecutor. "You're asking about the pre-order status and what's wrong? STFU!" really just does look like someone's covering for something.

Look at it this way, the "Twilight" fans often make the franchise look a lot worse than it really is. I see the same thing happening here.

I think that everything that's needed to be said about this project's delays has already been posted, so what's the point? It seems that Curt has been fair about returning money to customers who have not been satisfied with this delay, and why would non-customers care? I appreciate your concern for me and everyone else who pre-ordered, but if I want to complain, I'll take my complaint to Curt himself. :)


Ah, no. I was pointed to this project when I mentioned I was looking at doing 7800 development. So I read the entire thread, front to back. Status updates have been horrible, and the current situation doesn't at all seem different from roughly last December. Indeed, the only thing new in that time has been 'more hardware coming!', which I personally see as 'feature creep' that indicates that someone doesn't really want to let the project go. Others WILL take this as a scam. "It'll take more time, and we'll keep taking money, but it'll be worth it."

Again, I'm not belittling Curt here, but I am attempting to explain why this is beginning to look so bad and making a strong suggestion to Curt (et al) to deal with this situation in the most logical and prudent manner.

#1261 Atarifever OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 2:39 PM

Look at it this way, the "Twilight" fans often make the franchise look a lot worse than it really is.

An impossibility.

Edited by Atarifever, Tue Sep 4, 2012 2:40 PM.


#1262 desiv OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 2:40 PM

I don't mean to disagree with you here, but..
Oh wait, I do... I'm to honest for that kind of silliness.... ;-)
I always find it silly to say you're not going to do something, and then do it...
It's almost like you're not willing to stand up for what you're saying..

Again, I'm not belittling Curt here,

I'm not sure you actuall understand what "belittling" and "impugn" really mean..
Because you say you won't do that, but then you really honestly did just that.....

desiv

#1263 LidLikesIntellivision OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 2:43 PM

Just posting to say I don't want to push Curt to release the XM with compatibility issues and I have ordered it.
But if Curt decides to rush in the end, it shouldn't happen because non customers complains...

And I'm late too, I wasn't here in the begining. I had the time to read all thread and I decided to jump in.

#1264 davidcalgary29 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 2:44 PM

.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that it's perfectly understandible that someone could come to that conclusion based the news given in this thread. There's a big difference in what I'm saying and what you're wanting to defend Curt from.


You -- not me -- raised the spectre of fraud. If you meant something else, then you should have phrased it in that manner.

Again, I'm not belittling Curt here,


:)

but I am attempting to explain why this is beginning to look so bad and making a strong suggestion to Curt (et al) to deal with this situation in the most logical and prudent manner.


Well, I suppose that advice from an uninterested, uninvested party is always much more persuasive than it is from someone who has longstanding involvement with the project. Perhaps you can follow up your advice with a PM!

#1265 HammR25 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 2:48 PM

This is refreshing. It's been awhile since we had a good fight in this thread.

#1266 Jaynz OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 2:49 PM

I always find it silly to say you're not going to do something, and then do it...
It's almost like you're not willing to stand up for what you're saying..


Honestly, some of you guys really read what you WANT to see rather than what's there. My advice to Curt was to hammer out this thing so the issues would be put to bed. If I believed that this item was actually a fraud, could I possibly give that advice? I'm not belittling Curt in the sense that I think he's a fraud, but perhaps I am in the sense that I honestly think he's afraid to wrap up this project for whatever reason and needs to close it out. Is that better?

#1267 Atarifever OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 2:51 PM

This is refreshing. It's been awhile since we had a good fight in this thread.

I don't know. I used to love fights on forums first when I started here years ago, but since I had two kids I just want to start putting everyone in time outs. :)

#1268 TrekMD OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 2:53 PM

Can I ask a favor? Can those who want to complain about the wait for the XM just create a separate thread on it? I am tired of having to read arguments on what is supposed to be an update thread. I'm sure there are other folks who are tired of it as well. Thank you.

#1269 Gemintronic OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 2:55 PM

I don't get it. How can anyone start calling this vaporware when there are pics, blogs, developers actually creating games? I think the expansion could be ordered from somewhere at some point in time. I passed because people were still working on a C library with documentation. This expansion is real.

#1270 Jaynz OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 3:02 PM

I don't get it. How can anyone start calling this vaporware when there are pics, blogs, developers actually creating games? I think the expansion could be ordered from somewhere at some point in time. I passed because people were still working on a C library with documentation. This expansion is real.


"Vaporware" doesn't mean a product doesn't exist in some form. It means that it doesn't materialize in the market, or does not look likely to do so... hence, "vapor".

#1271 Gemintronic OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 3:08 PM

I don't get it. How can anyone start calling this vaporware when there are pics, blogs, developers actually creating games? I think the expansion could be ordered from somewhere at some point in time. I passed because people were still working on a C library with documentation. This expansion is real.


"Vaporware" doesn't mean a product doesn't exist in some form. It means that it doesn't materialize in the market, or does not look likely to do so... hence, "vapor".


You haven't pressed the "add to my basket" button and instead seem to want to debate. I still see stock mate.

#1272 Jaynz OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 3:11 PM

In all honesty, when it's out, I'll buy one. At this point, there's no product to buy. There may be 250 potential products, of course, but they don't really exist yet. Odd that you seem to think I need to spend my $100 up front before I should comment or show concerns about if should spend my $100... Do you do all your shopping that way?

#1273 Atarifever OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 3:12 PM

<Dad Voice> That's it! To your rooms. NOW! </Dad Voice>

#1274 Jaynz OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 3:14 PM

But... I'm IN my room!

#1275 Mitch OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 4, 2012 3:15 PM

Timeout time. Will reopen when things have cooled down.
If you don't want an XM then vote with your dollars and don't buy one.

Thanks,
Mitch




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