1274 replies to this topic

[AtariNerd]

Such a broad brush!

People tend to filter things by what they want to see. We all have bias, no matter our claim to have otherwise. I guess we now know the filter that was biasing Madarac's view.

Of course, we all play a part and none of us is above reproach, myself included. No one is a "perfect victim." The best that any of us can do is take responsibility for ourselves and modify our own behavior as necessary.

The community of AtariAge is no different than any other I've personally been to, people being no different in nature, regardless of any one characteristic. So, I don't really see how an open-minded individual would need to paint it with such a negative broad brush, unless of course, one is predisposed to that bias, guiding their perspective. Atariage is one of the most active classic gaming boards. Generally we get along, the signal to noise ratio is pretty dang high, here. But with such high output you will see many small bursts of pettiness, coming in seemingly more frequent doses. In reality, I suspect the proportion is no higher here than anywhere else. Partly, because of the volume, our mods trust us to self-regulate to a certain extent, stepping in only when things get especially nasty. I've been to other boards that are pretty trigger-happy when it comes to the ban, with a zero-tolerance approach. Naturally those boards are very "well-behaved" They also have a small fraction of the traffic. Coincidence? Maybe. I tend to avoid those boards, myself.

(Forgive the scatter-shottiness of my ramble.. my Aspie nature has me stumbling over language often-times. :/ I try, but ...Meh. )

Edited by AtariNerd, Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:18 AM.

[GroovyBee]

I don't have a problem with anybody developing for the 7800. It breaks down into a few categories in my mind :-

Newbie getting started: If you want to get your project going head over to the 7800 programming section, read the sticky thread, download the documentation, tools and a few examples and make a start. The key thing is to make a start . Unless you get over that first hurdle your game idea will always be a dream, because in a great many cases nobody will program the game for you. However, once you get going ask questions about anything you are stuck on. There are plenty of 6502 programmers on AA to help you with general coding issues and a few of us know about the 7800 too. Learning along the way, gaining confidence in your own abilities and having fun is all that matters in my opinion.

The negative side of development: If you get stuck a lot I'm not going to hand hold you at every sticking point throughout your project and I suspect, neither will other developers. Speaking for myself the main reasons are a lack of time and the motivation to do so. I have my own personal projects to work on and other projects I'm helping out on (some announced and some not). I'm also a firm believer in the "teach a man to fish and he can feed himself" school of learning. In my opinion effort is required on both sides to get where you want to go. If you don't want to put the effort into your project then why should I? It's your project at the end of the day and not mine. Having said that, sometimes a person has to realise that they are in over their head and should either back off their project and gain more skills to come back to it or even give up on it completely. Basically I'm trying to say in a long winded way that you should also be a realist.

Potential: If you have a fantastic idea for the 7800 and you aren't sure that it'll fit the limits of the machine start a thread and outline your ideas. Be prepared to adapt and revise your game idea until its workable. If you are the type of person that can't take open criticism on your ideas then you'll have to lurk and try things out on your own in the background. Potentially this can be quite demotivating and time consuming.

Already a developer: If you are an experienced developer and want to join the merry band of 7800 coders then what's stopping you? You aren't going to get rich and retire to the Bahamas doing games on the 7800 but you'll have a blast along the way. More developers and therefore more games for the 7800 is always a good thing.

Finally some arrogance: If you think you can code better games than I'm currently doing then bring it on . I also suggest that you head over to Format War and join in on the Edge Grinder competition (when it starts) so we can duke it out mano-a-mano (along with other 8 bit platforms).

[DocEss]

wood_jl, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:43 AM, said:

If I were going to criticize Groovybee, I'd be prepared to "outcode" him.  Not likely.

If I were going to criticize the XM or Curt's work, I'd produce a superior design at a lower cost.  Not likely.

So that leaves (1) Buy one, or (2) Don't buy one.   Why all the fuss?

Movie critics don't have to be directors in order to criticize films.  If you restrict the ability to be critical only to people who can replicate the product, you essentially say you refuse to be criticized.  

Not to split hairs, but as far as the XM, nothing has been physically produced, as far as I can tell.  So being critical of it or praising it, is still at this point, praising/criticizing an idea.  If people want others to be less critical of it, then the device needs to actually exist in people's hands so they can see if it lives up to all the high claims made of it.

Edited by DocEss, Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:05 PM.

[Metal Ghost]

DocEss, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:05 PM, said:

wood_jl, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:43 AM, said:

If I were going to criticize Groovybee, I'd be prepared to "outcode" him.  Not likely.

If I were going to criticize the XM or Curt's work, I'd produce a superior design at a lower cost.  Not likely.

So that leaves (1) Buy one, or (2) Don't buy one.   Why all the fuss?

Movie critics don't have to be directors in order to criticize films.  If you restrict the ability to be critical only to people who can replicate the product, you essentially say you refuse to be criticized.  

Not to split hairs, but as far as the XM, nothing has been physically produced, as far as I can tell.  So being critical of it or praising it, is still at this point, praising/criticizing an idea.  If people want others to be less critical of it, then the device needs to actually exist in people's hands so they can see if it lives up to all the high claims made of it.

I, personally, would turn this comment around.  For most people to feel that criticism is fair and objective (even if they may not agree with it), then the device needs to be in peoples hands.  Until then, I think the criticism is really not founded on much.  Kind of like fanboy conversations of which next-gen console is better, even while nothing has actually been released.  Hah. those were always fun!

[DocEss]

Metal Ghost, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:16 PM, said:

DocEss, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:05 PM, said:

wood_jl, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:43 AM, said:

If I were going to criticize Groovybee, I'd be prepared to "outcode" him.  Not likely.

If I were going to criticize the XM or Curt's work, I'd produce a superior design at a lower cost.  Not likely.

So that leaves (1) Buy one, or (2) Don't buy one.   Why all the fuss?

Movie critics don't have to be directors in order to criticize films.  If you restrict the ability to be critical only to people who can replicate the product, you essentially say you refuse to be criticized.  

Not to split hairs, but as far as the XM, nothing has been physically produced, as far as I can tell.  So being critical of it or praising it, is still at this point, praising/criticizing an idea.  If people want others to be less critical of it, then the device needs to actually exist in people's hands so they can see if it lives up to all the high claims made of it.

I, personally, would turn this comment around.  For most people to feel that criticism is fair and objective (even if they may not agree with it), then the device needs to be in peoples hands.  Until then, I think the criticism is really not founded on much.  Kind of like fanboy conversations of which next-gen console is better, even while nothing has actually been released.  Hah. those were always fun!

I think a lot of the criticism is founded in missed dates, and continual promises with nothing delivered.  It makes people who were once excited about a product rather antsy and intractable.  So you reach a sort of point where it's a bit of an impasse.  Critical because they don't have, but can't be critical unless they do have.  At that point, you're sort of just stuck.

Edited by DocEss, Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:38 PM.

[DracIsBack]

DocEss, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:37 PM, said:

I think a lot of the criticism is founded in missed dates, and continual promises with nothing delivered.

Umm ... the team working on this has been EXTREMELY open about what's happening, where the components are coming from, how the project has progressed etc.

When you say "'continual promises with nothing delivered", it makes it sound like they have no integrity when they've been quite open throughout or that they're trying to rip people off.I don't think that's cool.

Edited by DracIsBack, Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:58 PM.

[Allpaul]

DocEss, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:05 PM, said:

wood_jl, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:43 AM, said:

Movie critics don't have to be directors in order to criticize films.  If you restrict the ability to be critical only to people who can replicate the product, you essentially say you refuse to be criticized.  

Not to split hairs, but as far as the XM, nothing has been physically produced, as far as I can tell.  So being critical of it or praising it, is still at this point, praising/criticizing an idea.  If people want others to be less critical of it, then the device needs to actually exist in people's hands so they can see if it lives up to all the high claims made of it.

Decent movie critic analogy, but I see one problem with it.. Movie critics aren't going to repeatedly review the same movie over snd over.. They watch it, publish their review, and move on to the next movie.. It's fine to not like a product, and voice your opinions.. What was rubbing everyone the wrong way was page after page of seemingly wanting others to agree with their viewpoint.. I said it a couple of pages ago, and I guess I'll repeat it again from post 161:


I respect that this is a forum, and this is a place for discussion but some of you go way too far... Just page after page of seemingly trying to get people over to your way of looking at it!!! If that's not what the motivation is, I'm completely lost then!

I understand you dont like or approve of the the way the XM is being developed, the cost of it, the feature set, or any misc. gripe.. We all get that... Speak your peace, and keep it moving.

Geez! It's not been as much fun to come around here lately...

C'mon! This makes sense! Think about it!!

[Lendorien]

Couple of comments.

First,

Those who know Mr. Vendel and have watched him for years on the Atariage forums know he's a solid upstanding guy.  I don't think there's any need to start creating nightmare scenarios about the XM being vaporware. Give that this is a hobbiest project and the fact that there have been some setbacks due to manufacturers not coming through (including one disappearing with money already paid), some delay is to be expected. Remember that all of us hobbyists have day jobs.  It's not like this is being produced by someone who is going to make money off of it (It's a project costing over $10,000 after all). Curt will be lucky if he breaks even.  Given that fact, I think it would only be kind to cut him a bit of slack.

Yes, with several tentative release dates having come and gone, it would be nice to have some follow up comments from Mr. Vendel on the status of the project, but I'm not worried even though we haven't.

Second,

The Atariage community is easily one of the most civil online communities I've ever been involved with. It amazes me how helpful people are around here.  As others have said, if someone is serious about getting into 7800 development, they will find help here. One need only look at the various game dev threads to see how many people make programming suggestions and the like.

I don't know Groovybee personally, but from the past year of watching threads and interactions with others, I can say that the allegations of arrogance are misplaced. He has been helpful to almost everyone who asks for help and has contributed more than most people to the 7800 homebrew community. HE's well respected by the community and with good reason.

Third,

Criticisms of the Xm certainly have their place.  Like any homebrew, there will be people who like it and those who don't.  

That said, this is the Status thread for the project. Given that most of the people visiting it are waiting eagerly for it to come out. It's no small wonder that negative comments about a project that has been in the works for over a year and is eagerly anticipated will be met with a bit of resistance.

Let me make an analogy: Imagine you are anticipating the next hypothetical Harry Potter book to which only basic synopsis has been released. For various reasons, the book has been delayed. An acquaintance comes over and starts trashing the book and the author despite the fact that he knows less about the book than you do, (you being an avid follower of the series) and hasn't even read most of the rest of the series.  Don't you think you'd get a little irritated?

The XM project is finalized. Criticizing design decisions and such seems a bit silly given that what's coming out is what it is. It's not going to change into something else if we criticize how it has too much RAM or an FM chip. Heck, given that the 7800 was a third rate console that lost heavily to the NES, the fact that something like this is even being made is pretty darn amazing.

I'm a little surprised at Malducci's anger. So far as I can tell, almost everyone here has been more than civil in this conversation.  No, they haven't agreed.  Malducci acts as if the fact that people don't agree is some sort of sin.  I don't get that. We all have opinions.  But having one contrary to his own certainly doesn't make someone "close-minded," as he put it.

Malducci, I strongly suggest you calm down and back off a bit. Throwing accusations of close-mindedness and arrogance when you don't know the complete background and reasons for various design decisions, is a bit much. Get a bit better educated about the history of the XM project. Then, start a new thread about your complaints. Or better yet, wait til it comes out and see what people do with it, then make more of an informed opinion based on what it IS, rather than what it could have been.

Edited by Lendorien, Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:53 PM.

[DocEss]

DracIsBack, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:56 PM, said:

DocEss, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:37 PM, said:

I think a lot of the criticism is founded in missed dates, and continual promises with nothing delivered.

Umm ... the team working on this has been EXTREMELY open about what's happening, where the components are coming from, how the project has progressed etc.

When you say "'continual promises with nothing delivered", it makes it sound like they have no integrity when they've been quite open throughout or that they're trying to rip people off.I don't think that's cool.

Except extremely open about anything about it, really.  We know there's this thing, and it'll make sweet love to our 7800's, only they can't show it to us, they can't show any of the things it can do, and they can't actually tell us when it's coming out.

I know that sounds harsh, but, well, that's kind of what has happened so far.  Lots of great sounding stuff, no actual product.

[DracIsBack]

DocEss, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:23 PM, said:

only they can't show it to us, they can't show any of the things it can do, and they can't actually tell us when it's coming out.

Umm ... did you not look at the Status Page, the subject of this very thread? You can see pictures of it, you can see box artwork, you can see updates in the production cycle.

http://www.atarimuse...7800/expansion/

There's also plenty of threads talking about the hardware, discussions on games that support it, screenshots of games like Dungeon etc.

http://www.atariage....odule-xm-games/

Edited by DracIsBack, Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:48 PM.

[AtariNerd]

The project had a very aggressive set of expectations, with probably an overly optimistic time-line. I think many of us who have been here for awhile, understand that development of these projects often go through hell periods. As it is, this project is at only 4 1/2 months in on actual production (after a year or two of discussion within the community) , so the notion of continually unmet deadlines is a bit of an exaggeration at best, I think. To put it into perspective, the H2 cart, another much-looked-toward hobbyist project, has been in on and off development for about a year and a half (?), now, over three times as long.

Of course since this project is paid upfront, much by our own money, there is going to be an extra level of anxiousness, granted, but since one way or another it's a project paid for, it's also a project that has only one direction it can go and that's toward eventual completion. I'm sure Curt is pulling what hair he has left, trying to get this project to fruition and out the door. I'm also sure he is aware of the effect of promising something at a certain date and that passing without the goods and its bite, which is probably why he's keeping quirt with his nose to the grindstone until he has something firm he can show us.

Not that it's a bad idea to bug every now and then, but...

[DocEss]

DracIsBack, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:33 PM, said:

DocEss, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:23 PM, said:

only they can't show it to us, they can't show any of the things it can do, and they can't actually tell us when it's coming out.

Umm ... did you not look at the Status Page, the subject of this very thread? You can see pictures of it, you can see box artwork, you can see updates in the production cycle.

http://www.atarimuse...7800/expansion/

There's also plenty of threads talking about the hardware, discussions on games that support it, screenshots of games like Dungeon etc.

Four screenshots of one game from months upon months ago does not sell me a product.  The status page has shown me some mockup box artwork, (which is not an actual box), and some pictures which look very prototypical, and not at all a finished product.

I've noticed an abject refusal to actually show more game information than those very few screenshots, and nothing really substantial.  If people want to lessen the criticism and anger levered at the project, perhaps more than just "we're working on a game we can't show you" might help.

Just sayin'.  If someone wants money for a project like this, sell me a piece of hardware, sell me on it's capabilities, sell me on why I simply *must* have it.  Don't sell me on a concept and lots of "trust me, it'll be awesome".

Edited by DocEss, Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:53 PM.

[AtariNerd]

Well, anyways, it might be a good time for an update, even if the news is a bit lackluster.

Edited by AtariNerd, Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:55 PM.

[DocEss]

AtariNerd, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:51 PM, said:

Anyone elses Spidey-Sense set tingling by all of these newish accounts that parrot the same thing?

My account is just shy of a year old.  People are allowed to have opinions you don't like.

[DracIsBack]

Quote

I've noticed an abject refusal to actually show more game information than those very few screenshots, and nothing really substantial.

What actually would satisfy you? Something tells me, you'll keep calling this vapourware and keep implying that the creators are out to fleece people with a product that will never come out until you actually have one sitting in your hands. In which case, I guess you'll have to wait and order it once the first person reports that they have it.

Seems like a lot of 'effort' to go to for vapourware - designing boxes, doing 3D modelling, programming games around it, creating an SDK, developing firmware, creating molds, ordering components, providing status updates as they come in etc.

Edited by DracIsBack, Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:58 PM.

[DocEss]

DracIsBack, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:56 PM, said:

Quote

I've noticed an abject refusal to actually show more game information than those very few screenshots, and nothing really substantial.

What actually would satisfy you? Something tells me, you'll keep calling this vapourware and keep implying that the creators are out to fleece people with a product that will never come out until you actually have one sitting in your hands. In which case, I guess you'll have to wait and order it once the first person reports that they have it.

Seems like a lot of 'effort' to go to for vapourware - designing boxes, doing 3D modelling, programming games around it, creating an SDK, developing firmware, creating molds, ordering components, providing status updates as they come in etc.

Anyone can 'shoop up an idea of what a box should look like, and shoop a few concept designs of what the finished product could look like.  I could do that in the space of an afternoon.  Outside of presenting an actual, real, finished product, this is essentially asking people to buy a promise, not a product.  There hasn't even been an update as to why the latest release date was missed.

[DracIsBack]

DocEss, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:01 PM, said:

Anyone can 'shoop up an idea of what a box should look like, and shoop a few concept designs of what the finished product could look like. I could do that in the space of an afternoon.

Are you seriously implying that this is all the creators have done? Are you seriously implying that it's all photoshop and no other work has been done? And are you implying that the pre-orders were purely a rip-off scam?

Quote

Outside of presenting an actual, real, finished product, this is essentially asking people to buy a promise, not a product.

Welcome to the world of Homebrew.

Quote

There hasn't even been an update as to why the latest release date was missed.

Curt is probably due for an update, though I cut him some slack because:

a) The date says "Projected release date"; and

b) unless you're paying him $150,000 to assemble these things, he's doing it on his own time. He's likely barely breaking even and not accounting for the time invested in his costs. Labour of love.

[Austin]

AtariNerd, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:51 PM, said:

Well, anyways, it might be a good time for an update, even if the news is a bit lackluster.

Exactly. Ignoring most of the banter in this thread, all I really care about is what's happening with this. There hasn't been an official update from Legacy since well-before the tentative release date passed. Even if the news is that it will be delayed further, that's fine as long as we're kept in the loop.

[AtariNerd]

DocEss, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:55 PM, said:

AtariNerd, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:51 PM, said:

Anyone elses Spidey-Sense set tingling by all of these newish accounts that parrot the same thing?

My account is just shy of a year old. People are allowed to have opinions you don't like.

You have to ask yourself why many of us who have been here longer are willing to put our trust in the project and why most of those critical happen to be relatively new. Maybe our experience, our relationship we've developed with Curt informs our opinion.

[Underball]

It amazes me the lengths to which some people will go to deny people their right to an opinion on this site.

I guess no one should ever be critical of the food they are served in a restaurant if they aren't a chef by profession?

Unbelievable. Actually, I take that back. It's actually typical around here.

[Mirage]

Underball, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:08 PM, said:

It amazes me the lengths to which some people will go to deny people their right to an opinion on this site.

I guess no one should ever be critical of the food they are served in a restaurant if they aren't a chef by profession?

Unbelievable. Actually, I take that back. It's actually typical around here.

JHC!!! Just post it in an appropriate thread (your own if someone else hasn't already started an appropriate one). What is so hard to comprehend about that? I can't believe all this has been dredged up again.

Plus, there is a difference between having an opinion, and trying to shove an opinion down other people's throats repeatedly... in a thread of people who are looking forward to and are supportive of the product. The first is fine, the second is ignorant.

[Underball]

I checked in to see if there were any updates. There aren't. Just a lot of people telling one guy that he isn't entitled to an opinion if it isn't a glowingly positive sycophantic overture for the XM and everyone working on it.

[Allpaul]

Underball, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:19 PM, said:

I checked in to see if there were any updates. There aren't. Just a lot of people telling one guy that he isn't entitled to an opinion if it isn't a glowingly positive sycophantic overture for the XM and everyone working on it.

I see!! You said your peace... We get it!! No need to keep repeating yourself! Good lord!!!

[Underball]

Allpaul, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:25 PM, said:

Underball, on Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:19 PM, said:

I checked in to see if there were any updates. There aren't. Just a lot of people telling one guy that he isn't entitled to an opinion if it isn't a glowingly positive sycophantic overture for the XM and everyone working on it.

I see!! You said your peace... We get it!! No need to keep repeating yourself! Good lord!!!

Read this post back to yourself. Slowly if need be.

Note the irony in what you're telling me to do. (or more correctly, not do.)

[Allpaul]

[quote name='Underball' date='Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:08 PM' timestamp='1298171295' post='2214565']
[quote name='Allpaul' date='Sat Feb 19, 2011  8:25 PM' timestamp='1298165128' post='2214507']
[quote name='Underball' date='Sat Feb 19, 2011  8:19 PM' timestamp='1298164753' post='2214503']
I checked in to see if there were any updates. There aren't. Just a lot of people telling one guy that he isn't entitled to an opinion if it isn't a glowingly positive sycophantic overture for the XM and everyone working on it.
[/quote]
I see!! You said your peace... We get it!! No need to keep repeating yourself! Good lord!!!
[/quote]
Read this post back to yourself. Slowly if need be.

Note the irony in what you're telling me to do. (or more correctly, [I]not do.[/
You're so awesome! Smart, too!! What a jackass...