Ultima.. what port is best of each release?

[82-T/A]

I think I'm going to give Ultima V a try on the PC... I've got it (also) on the NES, but there seems to be a unanimous concensus that it sucks horribly on the NES.

 

Especially since there's a MIDI and a VGA update for them?

 

 

I'll probably still play 3 and 4 on the NES, just because there's only so little graphics I can take. 20 years ago, I wouldn't have cared, but with what little time I have, I need as much visual stimulation as possible. I just don't have the extended amount of time to sit and allow myself to be emersed in essentially what is otherwise a text game.

 

Not that anyone cares, but this thread has really got me motivated to play some of those older games for the first time. When these games came out, I went the route of the AD&D Gold Box games instead of Ultima.

[psquare75]

V even w/o the update is decent IMO.

[S1500]

I played that "xu4" Ultima 4 on Window XP, and was amazed on how unforgivingly hard it was at the beginning. Getting 'diseased' by hitting a swamp tile while out on the road = guaranteed death. Sure, if you die the game's not over, but it became disheartening after so many times. I would someday like to grind through these games since they are more appealing to me than the Final Fantasy series. But sadly, some elements of Legends* for the TI-99/4A come up making it frustrating.

 

* Waay WAAAAY too many wandering monster encounters. See that thread.

[psquare75]

Ya know, I don't really mind death in Ultima IV, sometimes it's easier to die once you get an item. I mean you get back 200 food and gold and don't lose your weapon..

[cimerians]

To me the Ultima's were all hard when I first played them. Now that I know what Im doing its OK but back then....difficult.

Food and poisoning was the worst. The best survival tips for Ultima IV are always, always use ranged weapons at the start and carry plenty of ginseng and garlic all the time. (To cure poisoning. MIX MIX MIX!)

I cant beleive I remembered that

 

Lots of combat is a good thing. You need to gain levels and hit points to survive.

 

Ultima has a more western-medeival-adult-D&D feel to it than the early Final Fantasies which were kiddy and anime like.

 

Its all a preference, I could never totally get into console RPG's until the PS1.

[Goochman]

I think I'm going to give Ultima V a try on the PC... I've got it (also) on the NES, but there seems to be a unanimous concensus that it sucks horribly on the NES.

 

Especially since there's a MIDI and a VGA update for them?

 

 

I'll probably still play 3 and 4 on the NES, just because there's only so little graphics I can take. 20 years ago, I wouldn't have cared, but with what little time I have, I need as much visual stimulation as possible. I just don't have the extended amount of time to sit and allow myself to be emersed in essentially what is otherwise a text game.

 

Not that anyone cares, but this thread has really got me motivated to play some of those older games for the first time. When these games came out, I went the route of the AD&D Gold Box games instead of Ultima.

 

though I am obviously an old skool fan of the Ultimas - I would suggest avoiding or trying last Ultima I. I started with Ultima II and while waiting for III got I - I was really a joke (atleast on the Atari 8bit). Ive heard there is a remake on the Apple/C64 series which looks alot better and had some bugs fixed though.

[Hatta]

 

though I am obviously an old skool fan of the Ultimas - I would suggest avoiding or trying last Ultima I. I started with Ultima II and while waiting for III got I - I was really a joke (atleast on the Atari 8bit). Ive heard there is a remake on the Apple/C64 series which looks alot better and had some bugs fixed though.

 

I'd have to say that Ultima I is one of the most interesting games I've played. It's very bare bones, but if you go into it knowing that then you'll be entertained. It's certainly short enough that you won't waste too much time if it doesn't click with you. It's not something I'd recommend to someone new to this hobby, but if you have a historical interest in this stuff you'll enjoy it.

 

FWIW, I preferred Ultima I over Ultima II. I played both on the Apple II.

[82-T/A]

 

though I am obviously an old skool fan of the Ultimas - I would suggest avoiding or trying last Ultima I. I started with Ultima II and while waiting for III got I - I was really a joke (atleast on the Atari 8bit). Ive heard there is a remake on the Apple/C64 series which looks alot better and had some bugs fixed though.

 

I'd have to say that Ultima I is one of the most interesting games I've played. It's very bare bones, but if you go into it knowing that then you'll be entertained. It's certainly short enough that you won't waste too much time if it doesn't click with you. It's not something I'd recommend to someone new to this hobby, but if you have a historical interest in this stuff you'll enjoy it.

 

FWIW, I preferred Ultima I over Ultima II. I played both on the Apple II.

 

 

When I started playing games on the PC... this is the kind of stuff that was available to me...

 

 

 

And this game kicked ass too...

 

Edited January 20, 2011 by 82-T/A

[psquare75]

To me the Ultima's were all hard when I first played them. Now that I know what Im doing its OK but back then....difficult.

Food and poisoning was the worst. The best survival tips for Ultima IV are always, always use ranged weapons at the start and carry plenty of ginseng and garlic all the time. (To cure poisoning. MIX MIX MIX!)

I cant beleive I remembered that

 

Lots of combat is a good thing. You need to gain levels and hit points to survive.

 

Ultima has a more western-medeival-adult-D&D feel to it than the early Final Fantasies which were kiddy and anime like.

 

Its all a preference, I could never totally get into console RPG's until the PS1.

 

It's funny you say that. I lost taste for console RPGs when I tried Final Fantasy VII on PSX. It felt too scripted. I ENJOYED grinding a la FF I IV V

 

Don't forget your sulphurous ash for Light!

[Christophero Sly]

V even w/o the update is decent IMO.

It's better than decent. IMO, it's the pinnacle of classic CRPGs.

 

Ultima has a more western-medeival-adult-D&D feel to it than the early Final Fantasies which were kiddy and anime like.

 

Its all a preference, I could never totally get into console RPG's until the PS1.

Not to go off on a tangent, but I don't think we give enough consideration to the sort of RPG culture gap that exists between those of us who cut our teeth on the western CRPGs of the pre-crash era, and those who came of age just a few years later and whose formative period was shaped in large part by console JRPGs. Between our two demographics, there are significant, often radical, differences in the sensibilities that shape our expectations of what an RPG should look like and how it should be played. As someone strongly rooted in the former era, I confess that I end up scratching my head and asking "what the heck is this?" after about the first 30 mins. of every console JRPG I've ever tried to play. That's not necessarily a criticism of JRPGs, it just points out how very divergent our fundamental aesthetic preferences can be. Sometimes it's seems like we're using the same words, but speaking very different languages.

[Ransom]

Not to go off on a tangent, but I don't think we give enough consideration to the sort of RPG culture gap that exists between those of us who cut our teeth on the western CRPGs of the pre-crash era, and those who came of age just a few years later and whose formative period was shaped in large part by console JRPGs. Between our two demographics, there are significant, often radical, differences in the sensibilities that shape our expectations of what an RPG should look like and how it should be played. As someone strongly rooted in the former era, I confess that I end up scratching my head and asking "what the heck is this?" after about the first 30 mins. of every console JRPG I've ever tried to play. That's not necessarily a criticism of JRPGs, it just points out how very divergent our fundamental aesthetic preferences can be. Sometimes it's seems like we're using the same words, but speaking very different languages.

 

Oh, just come right out and say it: JRPGs suck.

 

But seriously, as someone who grew up playing Wizardry, Ultima, Wizard's Crown, the SSI D&D games (not to mention paper and pencil RPGs), the JRPGs seem like pick-a-path-to-adventure books rather than RPGs. I know it's just a cultural/generational thing, but that's the way it's always seemed to me.

[Bill Loguidice]

Oh, just come right out and say it: JRPGs suck.

 

But seriously, as someone who grew up playing Wizardry, Ultima, Wizard's Crown, the SSI D&D games (not to mention paper and pencil RPGs), the JRPGs seem like pick-a-path-to-adventure books rather than RPGs. I know it's just a cultural/generational thing, but that's the way it's always seemed to me.

 

That's always been the key for me. I started out playing (and enjoying) pen and paper D&D games (and related), so classic CRPGs were a very close analog to that. My first was Phantasie on the C-64, and it's still one of my favorite RPG series. I'm sure if I came into RPGs in the NES-era, I'd have a different perspective. I've beaten the likes of Phantasie I - III, AutoDuel, Pool of Radiance, etc., and I can't recall ever being motivated to beat a console JRPG. I can see the appeal to be sure, but - particularly the later games - they're VERY different beasts from the style of the games from the classic CRPG era.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Bill_Loguidice

[psquare75]

Oddly enough I am in BOTH camps. I was born in '80, so granted I was very young, but I cut my RPG teeth on Ultima V VI VII AND Final Fantasy/Dragon Warrior.. My gamer cousin who is 10 years older than I had Ultima V and we'd play it on the weekends. What was EXTREMELY difficult is I had NO booklet for the game. We GUESSED at everything (and made it fairly far!!!) I never really had a 'preference'. Just different styles and methods of going about the same thing. To me they were both valid "RPGs".

[Bill Loguidice]

Oddly enough I am in BOTH camps. I was born in '80, so granted I was very young, but I cut my RPG teeth on Ultima V VI VII AND Final Fantasy/Dragon Warrior.. My gamer cousin who is 10 years older than I had Ultima V and we'd play it on the weekends. What was EXTREMELY difficult is I had NO booklet for the game. We GUESSED at everything (and made it fairly far!!!) I never really had a 'preference'. Just different styles and methods of going about the same thing. To me they were both valid "RPGs".

 

Well, that's why I kind of clarified LATER JRPGs in my previous comment, because the early Final Fantasy/Dragon Warrior games were knock-offs of CRPG mechanics with a different visual aesthetic. It was only as the genre evolved that it took a turn away from those roots. It's important to remember that both Wizardry and Ultima were EXTREMELY popular and influential in Japan, so it was only natural for the first Japanese RPG's to take direct inspiration.

[psquare75]

Oddly enough I am in BOTH camps. I was born in '80, so granted I was very young, but I cut my RPG teeth on Ultima V VI VII AND Final Fantasy/Dragon Warrior.. My gamer cousin who is 10 years older than I had Ultima V and we'd play it on the weekends. What was EXTREMELY difficult is I had NO booklet for the game. We GUESSED at everything (and made it fairly far!!!) I never really had a 'preference'. Just different styles and methods of going about the same thing. To me they were both valid "RPGs".

 

Well, that's why I kind of clarified LATER JRPGs in my previous comment, because the early Final Fantasy/Dragon Warrior games were knock-offs of CRPG mechanics with a different visual aesthetic. It was only as the genre evolved that it took a turn away from those roots. It's important to remember that both Wizardry and Ultima were EXTREMELY popular and influential in Japan, so it was only natural for the first Japanese RPG's to take direct inspiration.

 

Can you define a 'later'? Post SNES?

[Bill Loguidice]

Can you define a 'later'? Post SNES?

 

Certainly post SNES the transformation was all but complete, but there were certainly examples as early as the NES and its contemporaries. To me, the main differentiator will always be character creation in CRPGs versus preset characters in JRPGs. Certainly other differentiators would evolve, like greater linearity in JRPGs, etc. Of course everyone has a preference. I know many people who HATE creating their own characters, but for many others (like me), putting effort into creating your character (and even better, a party of characters, which was always my personal preference) is a significant part of the fun, because they're your creations in the game world, not someone else's. That to me is true role-playing, playing your own creations and imbuing them with personalities of your own imagination, not playing the role of what someone else already established.

[cimerians]

I work for a Japanese industrial printing company and I have a few friends here who are from Japan and played games or should I say still play games. One of them, who arrived here about 3 years ago to work here permanently tells me a lot about the game culture out there and he used to play DragonQuest (Warrior) and Final Fantasy. What he told me was that those console RPG's were geared towards a younger crowd in Japan back then, grade school and possibly high school and that they still have a huge following even though most people who played those games back then are older now. They keep the same look and feel of the older games. Keep the hero's young or possibly older but have them look young or anime style cause thats what they grew up playing\watching. Its just keeping with a tradition.

 

Its a whole different taste over there.

I started playing JRPG's with the PS1 like I mentioned.

 

I've always preferred western RPG's of course even though it seemed they died out on consoles until Oblivion or Morrowind.

For PC gaming though they never truly went away for me.

[psquare75]

Maybe kids were smarter in Japan. Most of my friends would say I was a dork and walk away when I started talking about white mage vs black mage.

[Christophero Sly]

Oh, just come right out and say it: JRPGs suck.

 

That's always been the key for me. I started out playing (and enjoying) pen and paper D&D games (and related), so classic CRPGs were a very close analog to that.

That's my background as well, and no doubt it plays a significant role in my preference for classic western CRPGs.

[jhd]

I'm not sure where I stand in this discussion.

 

Despite my age (40-ish), I never played any of the classic computer or console RPG games growing up. In terms of hardware, I went from an Atari 2600 (1981) to a Coco (1983) to a PC (1988) to a PlayStation (2003) and now a PS 2 (2008). (I played AD&D a little bit in high school, but only very casually.)

 

Virtually nothing mainstream was ported to the Coco; I cannot think of a single RPG title (possibly excluding Dungeons of Daggorath). Consequently, I have only experienced some of the famous NES/Genesis titles (e.g. Dragon Warrior, Pool of Radiance, Phantasy Star II) rather recently and through emulation.

 

I really like the gameplay of many of these titles, but I also find them painfully slow. I have also been spoiled by the superior graphics of newer titles. Having played, for example, Baldur's Gate, it's really hard to get excited over any NES "Gold Box" SSI game. Probably I would feel differently if I had some positive memories of these games from my childhood, but it is hard to get into them "fresh" at this point.

[Bill Loguidice]

I'm not sure where I stand in this discussion.

 

Despite my age (40-ish), I never played any of the classic computer or console RPG games growing up. In terms of hardware, I went from an Atari 2600 (1981) to a Coco (1983) to a PC (1988) to a PlayStation (2003) and now a PS 2 (2008). (I played AD&D a little bit in high school, but only very casually.)

 

Virtually nothing mainstream was ported to the Coco; I cannot think of a single RPG title (possibly excluding Dungeons of Daggorath). Consequently, I have only experienced some of the famous NES/Genesis titles (e.g. Dragon Warrior, Pool of Radiance, Phantasy Star II) rather recently and through emulation.

 

I really like the gameplay of many of these titles, but I also find them painfully slow. I have also been spoiled by the superior graphics of newer titles. Having played, for example, Baldur's Gate, it's really hard to get excited over any NES "Gold Box" SSI game. Probably I would feel differently if I had some positive memories of these games from my childhood, but it is hard to get into them "fresh" at this point.

 

Again, it's tough to talk about the Gold Box games on the NES. They're really PC games and you simply don't get the full experience. If you played the Amiga or PC versions of Pool of Radiance, for instance, your experience might be quite different. Computer RPGs translated to console (though the Genesis fared a bit better) are not really representative of the best that those types of games can do...

 

By the way, there were several RPGs for the CoCo, but Dungeons of Daggorath was probably the best and is certainly the most well known on the platform. It's a different type of RPG though than say an Ultima or any of the SSI CRPGs...

Edited January 22, 2011 by Bill_Loguidice

[SoulBlazer]

Interesting discussion so far.

 

Unlike many people here, I grew up with (and cut my teeth on) Japanese RPG's as opposed to Western and remain a huge fan of them today. Someone commented on eariler that it all depends on what you were exposed to, and when. Japanese and Western RPG's did start off very similar to one another (Bill made the point about that) but by the NES era they were starting to really diverge.

 

I was born in 76, so I was 12 when I first got my NES and played Dragon Warrior (and then a couple years later Final Fantasy) when they were brand new. I loved the games. They were nothing like I had played before, they were challenging without being downright hard and cruel, they had great music, and they had a rich and detailed STORY. To me that one of the biggest things, since I love to read (and still do) and it was a major selling point for me.

 

I didn't have my first PC until 1989 and it was a sucky CGA clone. Our first 'real' PC was a Gateway VGA 486 in 1992. During the mid to late 80's my main computer was a C128D. Friends would bring over games like the early Ultimas, the early Wizardrys, Bard's Tales, the D&D SSI games, and so on. I played and enjoyed them, but had problems with them. The graphics and sound were only average, the games were very difficult, and it was just 'go here, kill this guy, go there, do that' kind of gameplay.

 

I do strongly suspect if I was older, or hadn't touched Western RPG's until I had a great IBM clone system, I'd have enjoyed the games a lot more.

 

It wasn't until a few years ago that games like Morrowind and Oblivion came out, along with the Fable's, that I started to get back heavily into Western RPG's and now I totally love these games as much as the Japanese RPG's I still spend a lot of time playing.

 

As someone said, there's nothing wrong with prefering one over the other. They both have their different styles and pros and cons. I'd encourge anyone who is used to playing one style to check the other, but to be patient and give it TIME. Pick out the best games, play with a friend with you can, see what's good about them.

Edited January 22, 2011 by SoulBlazer

[high voltage]

Wasn't the guy who did Dragon Quest inspired by Ultima or Wizardry, as he seen one of them in USA way back in the early 80s?

Anyway, Ultima series on consoles mostly suck (I actually suffered through the NES versions, and IV on SMS).

 

82-T/A, you gotta be kidding!!!!! Ultima 3 - 5 best on NES? Graphics are refined. For whom, Stevie Wonder?

Nevertheless, if you must, still preferable to any JRPGs, these are too easy and very repetitive, but if you really have to make yourself feel sick, Ultima IV on SMS is rather good.

 

And also, who are those Beetles you keep talking about?

Not Beatles, perhaps? (Sorry, but it just looked funny, made me laugh...Beetles)

 

And Communism a failure? China is doing pretty well for itself, if I may say so.

Edited January 22, 2011 by high voltage

[Nukey Shay]

"Mommy says I can't play now...my shift starts in a few minutes."

[Arkhan]

Ultima V on the NES is realllly frikkkking bad. They should have kept with the sprinkling JRPG all over the game concept from 3 and 4 on NES. Instead you get some jackassed wannabe PC game with awful controls and Dither9000 graphics.

 

Ultima V is my favorite Ultima, with 3 being next. V w/ the MIDI add on is epic. Beautiful frigging game.

 

To me, I love both western and Japanese RPGs.

 

They both have a different appeal to them.

 

***With games like Ultima, GoldBox (Curse of the Azure Bonds!) and Might and Magic (World of Xeen is easily my favorite DOS game), you are presented with a more DnD approach. You explore, put the pieces together, build up a party of anonymous characters that you make yourself.... and basically go out on an epic adventure, grab the world or area you're in by the balls, and make it your bitch.

 

***With games like Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior, its more like reading a book or watching an Anime. You have a definite party, you are kinda linearly dragged through the game, but it plays out like a cartoon or something.

 

There is more emphasis on character development. You can't develop the main characters in a game like World of Xeen, because you just randomly create them in the tavern and wander off with them. If they die, thats cool, go make a new one!

 

 

They both have their pros and cons.

 

 

 

Ultima I, is hilarious. Walk into Paws, steal a lazer since the stealable list doesn't care what time era the games in... and then go into dungeons and lay waste to everything. blast them from down the corridor! WOOO.... and then the whole games a cakewalk, lolol.

 

Its better than Ultima II though. I wanted to like Ultima II. The story was awesome, but the game was just so dumb. The dungeons were completely optional, there was hardly anything going on, and well, it was CGA so man did that suck hard. At least the EGA patch kinda fixes that.

 

Ultima II is the ultima that is dying to be remade. It needs fixed.

 

The game needs to be as awesome as the boxart. Its the best boxart of any Ultima, oh man.