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IDE Plus 2.0 - new IDE host adapter


drac030

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The pinout on what? The new board, or the original IDEa?

IDEa is not "original". Original is KMK/JZ IDE 1.0, 1.2 and IDE Plus 2.0

 

 

I have tried the IDC header on the original IDEa board in every possible orientation, and it is impossible to have the IDEa sitting face-up on the table.. And MANY people have commented on this. The two pin-rows are reversed in relation to ANY OTHER PBI DEVICE..

Look at this and answer yourself. These are connections of both interfaces:

 

ideavsidepluspinout.jpg

Edited by Simius
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It sounds very much like "it is what it is." And that's fine with me -- "Machts Nichts" (to me, at least). The buyer's will buy, and maybe a few folks won't.

 

But I'm curious -- the cartridge orientation in XL mode has been mentioned a couple of times, but since the 800XL has it's own cartridge port and the device has a RTClock, why would one need a second cartridge port? (AFAIK, the clock carts are the only things that will work using two separate carts.)

 

-Larry

 

 

Guess I'll be using this on my XEs then. I have my monitors on a shelf above the machines and I don't think things will fit well with the interface sticking up. Carts are OK because they're further forward.

 

Actually my 800XL is hooked up to the MIO so no need for it there anyway :D

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But I'm curious -- the cartridge orientation in XL mode has been mentioned a couple of times, but since the 800XL has it's own cartridge port and the device has a RTClock, why would one need a second cartridge port? (AFAIK, the clock carts are the only things that will work using two separate carts.)

-Larry

 

Cartridge port in the interface is active and usable only with XE series.

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I can imagine...

 

For future reference, you can reverse the pins on a flat cable by connecting two dual-row headers together as shown. (with dual-row pins)

 

Bob

 

post-14708-0-66343600-1301174202_thumb.jpg

 

 

OMG... you are a very patient fellow. How many tries did it take?

 

Bob

 

 

This is designed to plug straight into the female header at the end of the ribbon cable which normally connects to the XE adapter board. Of course, if you just want to hard wire the unit to the XL connector, just make a longer cable without the double-way header pins.

I had only one edge connector, and only one small length of 50-way ribbon to cut up. It gradually got even shorter... There were maybe two attempts aborted after a dozen or so pins. If you mess up one wire, the whole lot has to come off and be trimmed back. Third time around, I bunched together four pairs of twisted wires at a time and bound them together at the correct pitch with sellotape, before putting the top on the connector and tightening it up in the vice. I did this six times, bunching five pairs together on the last one.

 

Not a lot of fun, but it's done now, so if I get one of these new fangled gadgets, I'll just use the same adapter. For that reason, I suppose it would be best if the current (reversed) pin arrangement is kept (since I have no spare edge connector).

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I made a similar suggestion almost a year ago, post #16 in the thread below. The reason it works is the same reason installing the header on the other side of the circuit board works, both reverse the orientation of the odd/even rows of pins, changing it from IDC to PBI compatible.

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/153113-pbi-connection-standard/

 

I can imagine...

 

For future reference, you can reverse the pins on a flat cable by connecting two dual-row headers together as shown. (with dual-row pins)

 

Bob

 

post-14708-0-66343600-1301174202_thumb.jpg

 

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Que Amargo Sos! Diria el COCO Basile!

 

Why do you get frustrated so much? Highschool physics? Maybe a bit too righteous I would say...

One thing is to give your feedback and point of view but why bring mud into the playfield?

Last time I heard we still have a free market policy here, don't we?

 

I personally accept what they are offering and I will make a decision when the time comes to purchase.

 

Sos un AMARGO

 

WHo will use the direct-PBI-plug-in configuration??? NO ONE! Its totally rediculous...

 

Well, you won't for sure. I wouldn't be so sure if everyone else dislikes it so strongly.

NOONE PREFERS IT over the configuration that I am suggestiong. To do so would be insane.

You gave an example of the BlackBox, which causes connection problems when plugged into directly. Right, probably. But BlackBox is a big and weighty thing (30x7,5 cm as I read).

 

Its not simply the WEIGHT of the device that is to be considered. You thing noone has ever made a suitable platform/case to hold the weight of the black box? The biggest consideration is merely the fact that you have two separate devices which are not hard-fixed to the same rigid surface, therefor, the connection is very succeptable to wear over time, due to vibration. If you cant understand this, then you never took highschool physics.

 

Here the device's size is approx. 1,5 cartridge (10,5x7,5 cm), so it is much smaller and less prone to vibrations. If it seems too weighty, you can use a CF card, as suggested above, or connect it via a cable (folded).

 

Go read the data sheet for the card-edge connectors.. They are not reccomended as a load-supporting member of the design, PERIOD. Nor are they reccomended for use without additional means of retention..

 

Obviously, if you make a small rom cartridge (or similar device) this is not an issue, but on a board that size, with a DRIVE hanging off it, it is a very real issue.

 

I am not advocating REMOVING the XE ECI card edge.. This is obviously very convenient when it comes to quickly swapping the device between machines, or quick setup when taking the device (and ataris) places and frequently setting up/tearing down your hardware setup. But there needs to be a provision for RELIABLE LONG TERM use as in a fixed setup as well.

 

If the DESIGNER does not consider these issues valid, that shows his inexperience when it comes to any sort of consumer/professional grade hardware designs.

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MG isn't known for being subtle but he is very knowledgeable and helpful when it comes to the A8 and he's raised a valid and important point. If changes can be made now, before the thing goes into production, then that would be better for all concerned.

 

I'd love one or two of these but I'd prefer to use it with an 800XL rather than an XE (my preference) and so for me , and probably others, the final design will make a big difference over whether to purchase or think long and hard about it.

 

Of course the designers are free to go with whatever design they wish, and well done on the work so far, but if the design could be improved before production then that would be better for everyone.

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The pinout on what? The new board, or the original IDEa?

IDEa is not "original". Original is KMK/JZ IDE 1.0, 1.2 and IDE Plus 2.0

 

 

I have tried the IDC header on the original IDEa board in every possible orientation, and it is impossible to have the IDEa sitting face-up on the table.. And MANY people have commented on this. The two pin-rows are reversed in relation to ANY OTHER PBI DEVICE..

Look at this and answer yourself. These are connections of both interfaces:

 

ideavsidepluspinout.jpg

 

Whaoh!!! From that comparisson, it appears that your board design already uses the correct layout for using the standard cable on the TOP SIDE of the board! Congratulations!

 

This is ASSUMING that the square "pin 1" pad corresponds to the same signal on both layouts.. ANd that both layouts are shown from the TOP side.. If that is indeed the case, then a standard header/cable should work from the top side of the board on your new IDE plus 2.0.

 

If youd have showed this to me yesterday, I'd have saved ALOT of typing!

Edited by MEtalGuy66
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Instead of using the HDD mounting screws to attach this weight bearing spacer why not just make the circuit board itself long enough, about another 9mm(3/8"), to accomplish the same?

 

If this is done pads for a PBI compliant header could be positioned near the end of the circuit board, where there is no clearance issue with the HDD, a right angle header would no longer be necessary. Both a vertical header and a card-edge connector could then be installed if desired, allowing the user a choice of which XL connection method they prefer. An angle header could be installed instead if desired, this would prevent use of the card-edge connector since it would extend beyond the end of the circuit board.

 

Ken wants the PBI header be rotated 180 degrees so that pin 1 is on the cartridge connector side, to me this is not necessary as I know that a diagonal fold in the cable will allow the device to function HDD/component side up if desired.

 

post-26063-0-04848000-1301191037_thumb.jpg

This edited picture shows an approximation of what it would look like, I simply pasted part of your spacer board onto the end of the circuit board, the black lines represent PBI header pads.

Some explanations seem to be necessary here.

 

The card edge connector is weighted down by any attached PCB, regardless if the PCB stands up or lays flat. In both cases a support is required, and without a support the connector is weighted even more, when the PCB lays flat, than when it stands up vertically. The PBI connector has intentionally and on purpose been mounted like that on the interface. The reasons which led to such decision are these:

1) reduction of the place occupied by the interface. It seems important for many people.

2) straight card edge connectors are much easier to buy, than right-angle connectors (not to mention straddle-mount connectors)

3) in any case the problem of some support must be taken into consideration. The PBI connector mounted this way serves as a support for the PCB, when the interface is inserted into an XE computer, so this way it per se solves a half of the support problem.

It should be taken into account, that it is not possible to make an universal support for the same PCB to be positioned flat behind an XE and XL model, because the neccesary distance between interface and the desk surface with XE is different than with XL. The interface is designed so that one can attach it to an XE, and, after a while, to an 800XL without much trouble. The interface, as it is, when connected to an 800XL, rests with the PCB's surface on the computer's chassis. What remains to be done, it is to add suitable support so that the PCB is tightened and the connection safe. For example as on the photo below (it is only a provisional solution, please don't pay attention to the fact that it doesn't look very aesthetic at the moment).

As to the ribbon cable connection, as I wrote before, it is possible to use one, if the disk sat upside down, and a right-angle header installed on the component side of the PCB. But I wrote that it was not recommended and there are some reasons to say so. Ironically, I spent few past evenings investigating, why single words are regularly lost in I/O with certain computer (while not with any other one), and finally I found out, that the reason is a too long cable, which was interfering with the internal operation of the machine, and that, in turn, influenced the interface's operation. It is possible that Slor used a long cable to connect an IDEa to PBI without problems, but in this case it is not a good idea. The hard disk's FIFO is very sensitive to any glitches leading to data loss, especially if there are power lines nearby, where fast and significant current changes occur, e.g. when the disk is moving the heads (esp. if the current goes through several tiny wires from a power supply which is common to the entire setup). It will not necessarily cause instant problems, but you have been warned.

The basic concept of powering the interface, for ergonomic reasons, provides no separate power supply. In 800XL, where there is no 5V on the PBI, it should be added using short, thick wires from the motherboard connected to the same pins, where the 5V is in the 600XL. For those, who cannot do this, or do not want to modify the computer, the final version

of the PCB will be equipped with a separate power connector. Anyone who insists to connect the computer using a ribbon cable also should use the separate power supply.

 

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2512/dscf1110a.jpg

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Ken:

 

The diagram for the IDE Plus 2.0 is a view from the bottom, as though looking into the connector, for a PBI female connection since this is a card-edge socket, with Pin 1 on the ECI connector side of the board. Pin 1 is marked according to the PBI standard, and since Pin 1 of the XL PBI is on the top surface on the back right of the machine the card-edge connector will plug onto it properly.

 

Since both female IDC connectors have the same pinout when looking into the socket, top right of the IDC-50 socket needs to attach to Pin 1, since that is where top right of the IDC-50 card-edge connects on the XL PBI, but since it can't connect while facing away like the board mount card-edge connector did it can only connect properly when plugged into a header installed on the opposite(HDD/component) side of the circuit board.

 

The IDEa pinout for the card-edge connector is the same, but the odd/even rows are reversed for the header connection which means the IDC-50 female socket would rotate vertically to plug into a male header installed on the same side, since rotating the connector to face the circuit board causes top right facing away to become bottom right, which is also PBI pin 1, when facing in.

 

The pinout on what? The new board, or the original IDEa?

IDEa is not "original". Original is KMK/JZ IDE 1.0, 1.2 and IDE Plus 2.0

 

 

I have tried the IDC header on the original IDEa board in every possible orientation, and it is impossible to have the IDEa sitting face-up on the table.. And MANY people have commented on this. The two pin-rows are reversed in relation to ANY OTHER PBI DEVICE..

Look at this and answer yourself. These are connections of both interfaces:

 

ideavsidepluspinout.jpg

 

Whaoh!!! From that comparisson, it appears that your board design already uses the correct layout for using the standard cable on the TOP SIDE of the board! Congratulations!

 

This is ASSUMING that the square "pin 1" pad corresponds to the same signal on both layouts.. ANd that both layouts are shown from the TOP side.. If that is indeed the case, then a standard header/cable should work from the top side of the board on your new IDE plus 2.0.

 

If youd have showed this to me yesterday, I'd have saved ALOT of typing!

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Actually, Billc, you may be right.. Why cant anything ever be easy...

 

Ok.. What this means is that on the new board (according to his diagram) the cable could be plugged in from the top, but it would have to lay over the top of the board (the hardisk connector end of the board would face the atari).

 

It also means that your "cable folding" soulution would now work from the top side of the board (whereas before it would have had to be plugged into the bottom side)

Edited by MEtalGuy66
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I made a similar suggestion almost a year ago, post #16 in the thread below. The reason it works is the same reason installing the header on the other side of the circuit board works, both reverse the orientation of the odd/even rows of pins, changing it from IDC to PBI compatible.

 

http://www.atariage....ction-standard/

 

I can imagine...

 

For future reference, you can reverse the pins on a flat cable by connecting two dual-row headers together as shown. (with dual-row pins)

 

Bob

 

post-14708-0-66343600-1301174202_thumb.jpg

 

Well, my "extension" cable attaches to the end of the ribbon cable using dual-row headers exactly as in the illustration. However - this might explain how I've only been able to get the short cable to work when directly attached to the IDEa's header pins... not to the end of the cable. So putting the twist in the cable was a total waste of time, then... I might as well rip it apart and crimp on a flat cable, otherwise the extension cable will never work as designed. S**t! :)

Edited by flashjazzcat
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Actually, Billc, you may be right.. Why cant anything ever be easy...

 

Ok.. What this means is that on the new board (according to his diagram) the cable could be plugged in from the top, but it would have to lay over the top of the board (the hardisk connector end of the board would face the atari).

Now that you have it straight behind the XL and connected with the cable over the top, imagine rotating it 90 degrees clockwise while moving it closer and to the left, this creates a twist/fold in the cable like I explained in post #47, just in this case the cable from the drive passes under the portion that is plugged into the PBI port. If the cable passed under the device it would have matched that diagram, it can't change connections/cross pins while it remains plugged in.

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Actually, Billc, you may be right.. Why cant anything ever be easy...

 

Ok.. What this means is that on the new board (according to his diagram) the cable could be plugged in from the top, but it would have to lay over the top of the board (the hardisk connector end of the board would face the atari).

Now that you have it straight behind the XL and connected with the cable over the top, imagine rotating it 90 degrees clockwise while moving it closer and to the left, this creates a twist/fold in the cable like I explained in post #47, just in this case the cable from the drive passes under the portion that is plugged into the PBI port. If the cable passed under the device it would have matched that diagram, it can't change connections/cross pins while it remains plugged in.

 

That's what I just said.. But the relation of the 2 rows have been reversed from teh IDEA to the IDE Plus 2.0..

 

Your "twist fold" solution will work with both boards, but with the IDEA, the header has to be on the solder side of the board.. with the IDE Plus 2.0, it has to be on the top (component) side.

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Flashjazzcat, that's all well and good for the IDEA, but as he showed us, the layout has CHANGED on this new board.

Well, I'll make a twist cable to plug into the non-twist extension. I'm past caring now. :)

:D Sorry to laugh at your pain. Reminds me of work where my damn code requirements will change, then revert, then change again. Sometimes I'll end up leaving big blocks of code in, just commented out, knowing someone will change their mind again.

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Flashjazzcat, that's all well and good for the IDEA, but as he showed us, the layout has CHANGED on this new board.

Well, I'll make a twist cable to plug into the non-twist extension. I'm past caring now. :)

Why? I realize that IDC50 card edge connectors are more expensive than IDC50 female sockets, but is it worth the extra time and effort it will take to make a twisted cable like you showed us to use with the extension you already have. A straight IDC50 card-edge to IDC50 socket cable of sufficient length is all it takes to attach this device, no twists or extensions required.

 

An angle header on the HDD/component side is PBI compliant, if you want to use it with the IDC compliant cable you already have for your IDEa(if it is long enough) you would just install the header on the underside of the board, you could actually use a vertical header(no clearance issue with the HDD) and have the device sitting on top of the cable. The IDC connector would act as a support when it is plugged in.

 

This idea of having the cable plug in at the far end should also work with the IDEa, with the IDE connector at the computer end. The difference is the IDEa would sit on top of a straight cable which is plugged into a header on the bottom. If it is desired to also keep the header on the top, to allow connecting to the XE adapter, a long header could be used which would allow connections from either side of the circuit board. The bottom end of the header is PBI compliant, the top end is IDC/IDEa XE adapter compliant. This would need supports high enough to prevent the header from hitting the desk when not being used.

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I don't know if it's got anything to do with the programming I'm doing at the moment, but I'm still as confused as ever. I now have an untwisted IDC50 card-edge to IDC50 socket cable, but it's only an inch long. If I didn't want to buy another edge connector, I could buy another length of 50 way cable, and extend the adapter cable to a useable length. This would mean it was still useful for plugging in the end of the existing (IDEa to XE adapter) cable, and could also be used direct with the new device.

 

Other than that, I'm happy to "cross that bridge when I come to it". Explaining these things is notoriously difficult, and comprehending them somewhat more so. The reason I ended up making the twist cable is that I had failed to tell Candle that what I wanted to make was an extension which would plug into the end of a cable using dual-header pins. I'm sure he would have saved me a lot of work if he'd realized that.

 

I'll start looking for an IDC50 card edge connector and another length of SCSI cable. That way, I'll be ready for anything.

 

One point I want to make: what happens if you hook the device up to a machine already equipped with any of the following:

 

Ultimate 1MB (i.e. Internal SDX, RTC)

"Other" IntSDX

ARC Clock

 

Unless the IDE 2.0's on-board RTC and integral SDX can be selectively deactivated, I imagine there'll be clashes. Do we have jumpers to turn these features off if we don't need them?

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