IndusGT Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) Spoke with Bob Puff yesterday, he has little to no atari stuff left, he said he would only do another run of the Blck Box if there was sufficient demand. He is not in AtariAge and did not seem to be aware of its existence! unless I misheard. I will foward people's reply to this thread to him if there's interest in another run. Most of us here have Black Boxes that are going on 20 years old... Edited March 31, 2011 by IndusGT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fibrewire Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Hell, I'll buy 2 just because! Only if all the attachments are included. Maybe he wants to put it all on one flat board this time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndusGT Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) Wow that was fast! Keep them going... Hell i'll buy 2 just because! Only if all the attachments are included. Maybe he wants to put it all on one flat board this time? Edited March 31, 2011 by IndusGT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I lived in Rochester 20 years ago and had the pleasure of knowing Bob Puff back then, even going to his house. Sad to hear he's gotten rid of most of his Atari stuff, but nice that he's willing to do another run of the Black Box if there's enough interest. I'd be willing to post a news blurb on the front page of AtariAge (imagine that, given how neglected that's been) if it would help. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+orpheuswaking Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Dependent on price I would be interested - as long as it's full featured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndusGT Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 That would be great, really appreciate it, thanks!! I lived in Rochester 20 years ago and had the pleasure of knowing Bob Puff back then, even going to his house. Sad to hear he's gotten rid of most of his Atari stuff, but nice that he's willing to do another run of the Black Box if there's enough interest. I'd be willing to post a news blurb on the front page of AtariAge (imagine that, given how neglected that's been) if it would help. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 That would be great, really appreciate it, thanks!! Would really help to have a description of the Black Box, how much it's gone for in the past (I do not own one), and maybe some info on CSS/Bob Puff. A good, clean picture of a Black Box would also help. Thanks, ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.golden.ax Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I'm I alone here.... what is black box? AX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svenski Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I'd be interested depending on price and if fully featured like others have mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kheffington Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) That would be great, really appreciate it, thanks!! Would really help to have a description of the Black Box, how much it's gone for in the past (I do not own one), and maybe some info on CSS/Bob Puff. A good, clean picture of a Black Box would also help. Thanks, ..Al Don't think there is a picture but probably all the information you need at the link below. Black Box Here is a picture Picture Edited March 31, 2011 by kheffington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spookt Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Yes I'd certainly take one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndusGT Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) Here's what it looks like: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/166268-icd-mio-help/page__p__2053690#entry2053690 From Bob Puffs website: http://www.nleaudio.com/css/ INTRODUCTION The Black Box is a parallel bus device designed for the Atari 600XL, 800XL, and 130XE home computers, which greatly enhances their capabilities and usefulness. The Black Box (we will refer to it as 'BB' throughout this document) provides several operating system enhancements. The BB started out to be a simple hard disk interface, but soon evolved into a much more powerful product. We have striven to support even some of the less common peripherals that until now, have not been able to be used with an 8-bit (including some modems and hard disks). Computer Software Services believes in the original Ataris, and will, with your help, continue to develop innovative products for the 8-bit line. The following is a brief list of the BB's features: * RS232 serial port with built-in handler * SASI/SCSI hard disk bus * Parallel printer port definable of printer IDs 1-8 * 64k Printer spooler using XE memory or optional BB memory * Text or Graphics printer dump of most screens * Hard disk floppy drive emulation (Single or Double density) * 512 byte sector support for large hard disks * 96 entry partition list for ease of drive manipulation * Configuration menu allowing manipulation of drive numbers, swapping drives, write protection, and density (hd only) * All hard disks may be write-protected with the flip of a switch * Ultra high speed disk I/O with modified 1050s, Happy 810s, and all XF-551 floppy drives * Built-in machine language monitor allowing you to see the program counter and registers, change them, disassemble memory, and search for bytes A separate product for the BB is The Floppy Board, a floppy disk interface. This will permit the connection of 'bare-bones' 3.5 and 5.25 inch floppy drives, without the need for a special controller. Because this interface board will be on the computer's parallel bus, the data transfer rate will be MUCH faster than that of even a floppy drive in high speed mode! I'm I alone here.... what is black box? AX Edited March 31, 2011 by IndusGT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) It needs a design update BADLY, and he needs to recover the source for the firmware.. otherwise, its pretty much a dead-end project. As far as the floppyboard goes, it's not MUCH faster than ultraspeed IO.. in fact, its considerably slower that Hias's 12x ultraspeed SIO.. Also, its not very compatable with non-dos (custom sector loading and copy protected) software, and the support for HD floppy drives is "shakey at best." It made alot of sense for a means of hardisk backup (using higher density floppies), before flash media was so cheap/common. I own a black box, "fully loaded".. Floppyboard, 64k SRAM, parity upgrade, latest firmware.. Yeah it's almost 20 years old.. Am I worried about it deteriorating with time? no.. Every component on it is still commonly available and relatively easy to change. If a new one was made, I would make several reccomendations: 1) change the board layout so it isnt shaped like a Giant "T" (preferably, design it to a form factor that fits a commonly available enclosure) 2) put a layout for REAL DB9/DB25 parallel and serial ports on the board, rather than card edges that require custom adapters.. 3) come up with a MUCH BETTER mounting/mating solution/scheme for the Floppyboard. 4) correct the board layout for the largest/latest (64k) firmware and 64k of SRAM, so you dont have to add jumper wires, etc.. 5) remote mount the switches & buttons, so you can put the thing in a case. (the flimsy shrink-formed plastic case that CSS offered was a waste of money) 6) as I said before, recover the source for the firmware. It needs an update really bad. The SCSI handler is very slow, and could be updated to better support alot of more modern device configurations. Edited March 31, 2011 by MEtalGuy66 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bf2k+ Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I'd get one if price was right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndusGT Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 It needs a design update BADLY, and he needs to recover the source for the firmware.. otherwise, its pretty much a dead-end project. You can run IDE drives including flash ones with a SCSI-IDE bridge.. But agreed that a smaller form factor would be nice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloopy Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 i would be interested in one too, depending on price... sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Forgive my ignorance, but how does the Black Box differ from the MIO? They seem similar. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svenski Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I was reading through the product description - after first thinking "yeah!, the legendary black box returns" but the SCSI support seems a bit outdated now - I'm guessing you'd need to use an external SCSI drive or cobble together some sort of external housing for one so it was powered and hooked up to the black box. I guess it depends on price. With things like IDE interfaces etc I dunno. What do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndusGT Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 I'm sure that my answer will not be all inclusive, but the Black box has a machine language monitor, screen to printer dump with one button, and compared to the original MIO the disk interface was faster and could use more drives as well as getting all the space from a drive since it could do 512 byte sectors VS the MIO at 256, back when it first came out it was also more affordable, It used to be $199 Vs the MIO which was much more expensive. MetalGuy's MIO has closed the gap with all the improvements to the hardware and firmware, also the MIO has a RamDisk, still both devices have a lot of pluses and minuses and I believe that each stand on their own merits. Do not know what cost will be, but hopefully it will be just as affordable as back then Forgive my ignorance, but how does the Black Box differ from the MIO? They seem similar. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndusGT Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 Very, very easy to use flash IDE drives, all you need is a scsi-IDE bridge, I have a 40 pin IDE 512 MB flash drive connected to my black box and it FLIES... I was reading through the product description - after first thinking "yeah!, the legendary black box returns" but the SCSI support seems a bit outdated now - I'm guessing you'd need to use an external SCSI drive or cobble together some sort of external housing for one so it was powered and hooked up to the black box. I guess it depends on price. With things like IDE interfaces etc I dunno. What do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I was reading through the product description - after first thinking "yeah!, the legendary black box returns" but the SCSI support seems a bit outdated now - I'm guessing you'd need to use an external SCSI drive or cobble together some sort of external housing for one so it was powered and hooked up to the black box. I guess it depends on price. With things like IDE interfaces etc I dunno. What do you guys think? Yeah I'm not really seeing the use for it nowadays, especially given that the MIO has been reproduced already. Maybe it's time for someone to design the ultimate MIO/BB type device from sscratch? Sort of a swiss army knife for the 8-bit. Then again the work involved in something like that would be astronomical. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I'm pretty much out of my league on the technical analysis....I'll leave that kind of stuff to people like Metalguy and Mathy..... But some layman's questions: (1) Is this just "another run" of the existing design, or would a revision be in order, as Metalguy alluded to? Sounds like he has a good point. (2) The Floppy Board seems like a waste of money - what's the point with the other options. Why not eliminate this to reduce cost. (3) If this is a revision (oh gosh, let's hope) then some sort of "SD card as hard drive" solution would make this the **IDEAL** product! I know most people hate the ST, but the "Ultrasatan Device" is f**king excellent, and to have a similar solution - no dicking around with adapters and crap, just insert an SD-card for a hard drive like the Ultrasatan - would make this a DEFINITE BUY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svenski Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I'm pretty much out of my league on the technical analysis....I'll leave that kind of stuff to people like Metalguy and Mathy..... But some layman's questions: (1) Is this just "another run" of the existing design, or would a revision be in order, as Metalguy alluded to? Sounds like he has a good point. (2) The Floppy Board seems like a waste of money - what's the point with the other options. Why not eliminate this to reduce cost. (3) If this is a revision (oh gosh, let's hope) then some sort of "SD card as hard drive" solution would make this the **IDEAL** product! I know most people hate the ST, but the "Ultrasatan Device" is f**king excellent, and to have a similar solution - no dicking around with adapters and crap, just insert an SD-card for a hard drive like the Ultrasatan - would make this a DEFINITE BUY. Yeah, I agree with you re the Ultrasatan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 All the improvements we have made to the MIO so far have been firmware based. And WARERAT is the guy who did it. Not me. This firmware works on the original MIO, as well as the reproduction units I build. Its now much faster than the black box, it supports 512 byte sectors, and it will do 32bit LBA which lets you use extremely large phyisical drives. (and we are working on a major hardware/firmware upgrade board for the MIO that will blow the black box away..) Last I heard, Bob Puff said that the only existing copy of the Black Box Firmware source code was on a crashed hardisk, that he didnt know if he would ever get around to recovering. If he's willing to do this, and get the source in the hands of a good coder (at his own discretion of course) so that it can be updated to compete with the rest of the stuff out there, then I'd be more than willing to buy another black box just to have as a spare. This would be the determining factor for me. The reccomendations I made in my last post would be nice, but I totally understand if Bob does not want to go to the trouble of altering the PCB layout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndusGT Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 Just spoke with Bob Puff, I've E-mailed him this thread, hopefully he will register here and reply as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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