135 replies to this topic

[NE146]

Again there are a lot of us who freely use emulators and yet have a lot of original hardware. It really isn't all that serious, and is all good as far as I'm concerned.

It's almost like the internal Mame debates where people knock others for using MameOX (xbox) vs. using the latest one on the PC.. when of course the truth is, EVERYBODY who's interested has a PC with Mame on it by default, so no one's really sure who anti-console zealots are trying to enlighten

I will say this though.. everytime I state that an emulator is "near perfect", I end up playing some game in depth on it and end up finding something off. Usually it's the sound for example.. some background or sound effect will stop working if I keep going back and forth on save states.. or some other goofy thing like that. It's just the nature of the beast, but again it's all good.

[jaybird3rd]

bradx, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:10 AM, said:

golden eared audiophile(also lifelong musician with perfect pitch) here:  i collect vinyl records, have some 7-10,000 of them, and though i prefer the original hardware, emulators were good enough that i sold the vast majority of my video game collection and have not regretted it one bit.  yeah i have a nice set of paddles and a 2600 for those games, but other than that, 99% or so of games are emulated just fine in my opinion.

i agree with whoever said the free emulators are better than the official collections.  god bless MAME, since i discovered that i havent looked back.  in a way i guess it is similar to my golden ear audiophile tastes.  i was talking with some other vinyl afficianados recently, and remarked that often if i want to hear a song i will download it, because when you have such a vast collection its usually quicker to download than to dig through stacks and stacks of records.  same goes for emulation, if i want to play an atari game do i go down in my basement and dig through all my junk and dig it out, or double click an icon on my desktop?

unless i am itching to play a game of kaboom the answer should be obvious...

That's an interesting perspective.  I sometimes find myself doing the same thing: I don't have enough space to keep all my classic systems hooked up (although I hope to someday), so I'll often fall back on emulation if there's something I want to play just to get a "quick fix".  For example, I own a 99/4A and I love playing Parsec with the Speech Synthesizer.  Even though I'm aware that the speech doesn't sound quite as good through emulation, I'm not above firing it up in an emulator during those times when my 99/4A is in storage.  I'm aware of the differences as I'm playing it, but in that particular moment, the convenience is more important to me.  It's not so important, though, that it makes me want to get rid of all my original hardware, in the same way that your music downloads don't entirely take the place of your sizable vinyl collection.  Whatever your particular interest, it's all a matter of whether you're sufficiently passionate enough about it to devote time and space and effort to it.  If you are, the more expedient alternatives are simply another way of enjoying the originals.

Here's another analogy I'll offer for everyone's consideration.  If you enjoy seeing faraway places, you have at least two choices: you can travel and see them in person and collect pictures and other mementos from your trips, or you can stay home and watch The Travel Channel or the Discovery Channel all day and order the physical artifacts online.  The couch potato might say that he can see all the same things that the traveler sees this way without having to deal with all the "headaches" of traveling, but I think most people would agree that this does not capture the full experience of traveling.  If you've traveled to a certain country in person years ago, and if a Discovery Channel special about that country comes on, you might enjoy watching it for an hour just to relive your visit in your mind.  But does that then take the place of the original experience, and is it enough to make you say "wow, if I had known about this, I never would have had to go there in person!"?  I think not.

[Underball]

NE146, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:36 AM, said:

Again there are a lot of us who freely use emulators and yet have a lot of original hardware. It really isn't all that serious, and is all good as far as I'm concerned.

It's almost like the internal Mame debates where people knock others for using MameOX (xbox) vs. using the latest one on the PC.. when of course the truth is, EVERYBODY who's interested has a PC with Mame on it by default, so no one's really sure who anti-console zealots are trying to enlighten

I will say this though.. everytime I state that an emulator is "near perfect", I end up playing some game in depth on it and end up finding something off. Usually it's the sound for example.. some background or sound effect will stop working if I keep going back and forth on save states.. or some other goofy thing like that. It's just the nature of the beast, but again it's all good.

It is silly.

I like both. I have both. But this thread just gets entertaining when the die hards start suggesting to people that emulation is "invalid" or "severely lacking". I love cracking back at people who tell me that there's no way I could possibly be enjoying myself, because of something that bothers them which I coulnd't care less about.  

[98PaceCar]

Underball, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:38 AM, said:

What you're describing isn't "Classic Gaming".

It's "The giant pain in the ass that is collecting classic game equipment".

Classic Gaming is PLAYING these games, in any form.

Hence the difference between GAMING and COLLECTING. The only people who care about this distinction are fanatical collectors.

I own a 7800 with a Harmony cart, a Genesis with an Everdrive, a PS2 with a mod and 40 games on the internal Hard drive, and a PS3 with Custom firmware, 32 games, and emulators for everything else. I have the ability to play pretty much every game I'd like in original console format, if I so choose.

As for your dig about "having the means", LOL, I'm pretty sure I have the means to own every piece of everything the fanatics on this site collect. What I don't have is the desire to deal with trying to acquire it all, or the patience to deal with the scumbags who try to rip people off in the process.

But again, this is all rinse and repeat. Any time someone suggests to a self-described "collector" that emulation can be just as good a gaming experience, or just as rewarding and fun - out comes the snobby, "You don't have the money to compete with my AWESOME COLLECTION" attitude in response. It's one of the things that makes this site unbearably childish sometimes.

I may be wrong and you may have the means (which btw, means more than just having money... time, space, patience, contacts, etc all come into play as part of the means to have something. Money is the easy part.). I've seen it played out by a number of fanboys that usually their incessant need to defend the way they approach this hobby stems from something. Usually, it's that they have made a choice, typically not the choice they want to make, and they feel they need others to validate it so they play the devils advocate any chance they get just to make themselves feel better. Simple human nature really, but not a good way to be.

So to boil this down, for YOU, having the real hardware and software is not something you want to do. However, there are many aspects of and ways to enjoy "classic gaming" outside of what your limited definition of it is. Some folks like to buy up every dirt cheap game they can, throw them in a box or on a shelf, and say they have a collection. Some folks like to make contacts with industry people and buy up unreleased or pre-release versions of games. Some people like to look for every game made for a console, in a console generation, by a particular manufacturer, or even in a single genre over multiple consoles. Some people have a couple of PS1 games thay play on their PS3 from time to time. Some people only buy domestic games and others only buy imports. Some people play every game they buy and some people play just a few, or even none. Some people have hundreds of arcade games in full cabinets. Some people have hundreds of arcade pcbs that they play on a supergun or in a single cabinet. Some people download dvds full of roms and play emulators. Some people even cross all the lines and dabble in a little bit of everything. All of these people are classic gamers because of one simple, common, thing. They enjoy classic games in a capacity that meets their desires.

As long as each person makes their own decision for themselves, none of them are wrong. But your insistence that anybody that isn't using emulation is wasting their time/money/space does get old. Maybe people wouldn't be jumping on you quite as hard if you would just realize that there are different opinions and though your opinion works great for you, it is not the popular opinion in this environment. There are times when you have to realize that you are just digging your own hole deeper. If you want to discuss emulation in a friendly environment, there are plenty of other forums on the net that specialize in just that. I'm sure they will provide you all the support and information you could ever need.  

Personally, I enjoy the hunt for games/hardware and meeting other collectors in the process. I enjoy the act of catalogging what I have and researching what I've found. I enjoy cleaning and restoring/repairing hardware. I enjoy playing the games that I have. To me, going on the net and finding a torrent of every game for system x sucks all of the fun out of classic gaming as there is zero challenge to that. No thrill of the hunt or finding an elusive game for a great price. Add to that less than stellar experience of building/configuring a system, configuring the software, finding the correct drivers, figuring out how to interface controllers, etc and for me, emulation is not an enjoyable experience. But I assure you, I'm no less of a classic gamer than anybody else on this site, including yourself.

[Underball]

jaybird3rd, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:39 AM, said:

bradx, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:10 AM, said:

golden eared audiophile(also lifelong musician with perfect pitch) here:  i collect vinyl records, have some 7-10,000 of them, and though i prefer the original hardware, emulators were good enough that i sold the vast majority of my video game collection and have not regretted it one bit.  yeah i have a nice set of paddles and a 2600 for those games, but other than that, 99% or so of games are emulated just fine in my opinion.

i agree with whoever said the free emulators are better than the official collections.  god bless MAME, since i discovered that i havent looked back.  in a way i guess it is similar to my golden ear audiophile tastes.  i was talking with some other vinyl afficianados recently, and remarked that often if i want to hear a song i will download it, because when you have such a vast collection its usually quicker to download than to dig through stacks and stacks of records.  same goes for emulation, if i want to play an atari game do i go down in my basement and dig through all my junk and dig it out, or double click an icon on my desktop?

unless i am itching to play a game of kaboom the answer should be obvious...

That's an interesting perspective.  I sometimes find myself doing the same thing: I don't have enough space to keep all my classic systems hooked up (although I hope to someday), so I'll often fall back on emulation if there's something I want to play just to get a "quick fix".  For example, I own a 99/4A and I love playing Parsec with the Speech Synthesizer.  Even though I'm aware that the speech doesn't sound quite as good through emulation, I'm not above firing it up in an emulator during those times when my 99/4A is in storage.  I'm aware of the differences as I'm playing it, but in that particular moment, the convenience is more important to me.  It's not so important, though, that it makes me want to get rid of all my original hardware, in the same way that your music downloads don't entirely take the place of your sizable vinyl collection.  Whatever your particular interest, it's all a matter of whether you're sufficiently passionate enough about it to devote time and space and effort to it.  If you are, the more expedient alternatives are simply another way of enjoying the originals.

Here's another analogy I'll offer for everyone's consideration.  If you enjoy seeing faraway places, you have at least two choices: you can travel and see them in person and collect pictures and other mementos from your trips, or you can stay home and watch The Travel Channel or the Discovery Channel all day and order the physical artifacts online.  The couch potato might say that he can see all the same things that the traveler sees this way without having to deal with all the "headaches" of traveling, but I think most people would agree that this does not capture the full experience of traveling.  If you've traveled to a certain country in person years ago, and if a Discovery Channel special about that country comes on, you might enjoy watching it for an hour just to relive your visit in your mind.  But does that then take the place of the original experience, and is it enough to make you say "wow, if I had known about this, I never would have had to go there in person!"?  I think not.

Calling people lazy couch potatoes isn't going to help this discussion become more civil.  

[Underball]

98PaceCar, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:43 AM, said:

Underball, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:38 AM, said:

What you're describing isn't "Classic Gaming".

It's "The giant pain in the ass that is collecting classic game equipment".

Classic Gaming is PLAYING these games, in any form.

Hence the difference between GAMING and COLLECTING. The only people who care about this distinction are fanatical collectors.

I own a 7800 with a Harmony cart, a Genesis with an Everdrive, a PS2 with a mod and 40 games on the internal Hard drive, and a PS3 with Custom firmware, 32 games, and emulators for everything else. I have the ability to play pretty much every game I'd like in original console format, if I so choose.

As for your dig about "having the means", LOL, I'm pretty sure I have the means to own every piece of everything the fanatics on this site collect. What I don't have is the desire to deal with trying to acquire it all, or the patience to deal with the scumbags who try to rip people off in the process.

But again, this is all rinse and repeat. Any time someone suggests to a self-described "collector" that emulation can be just as good a gaming experience, or just as rewarding and fun - out comes the snobby, "You don't have the money to compete with my AWESOME COLLECTION" attitude in response. It's one of the things that makes this site unbearably childish sometimes.

I may be wrong and you may have the means (which btw, means more than just having money... time, space, patience, contacts, etc all come into play as part of the means to have something. Money is the easy part.). I've seen it played out by a number of fanboys that usually their incessant need to defend the way they approach this hobby stems from something. Usually, it's that they have made a choice, typically not the choice they want to make, and they feel they need others to validate it so they play the devils advocate any chance they get just to make themselves feel better. Simple human nature really, but not a good way to be.

So to boil this down, for YOU, having the real hardware and software is not something you want to do. However, there are many aspects of and ways to enjoy "classic gaming" outside of what your limited definition of it is. Some folks like to buy up every dirt cheap game they can, throw them in a box or on a shelf, and say they have a collection. Some folks like to make contacts with industry people and buy up unreleased or pre-release versions of games. Some people like to look for every game made for a console, in a console generation, by a particular manufacturer, or even in a single genre over multiple consoles. Some people have a couple of PS1 games thay play on their PS3 from time to time. Some people only buy domestic games and others only buy imports. Some people play every game they buy and some people play just a few, or even none. Some people have hundreds of arcade games in full cabinets. Some people have hundreds of arcade pcbs that they play on a supergun or in a single cabinet. Some people download dvds full of roms and play emulators. Some people even cross all the lines and dabble in a little bit of everything. All of these people are classic gamers because of one simple, common, thing. They enjoy classic games in a capacity that meets their desires.

As long as each person makes their own decision for themselves, none of them are wrong. But your insistence that anybody that isn't using emulation is wasting their time/money/space does get old. Maybe people wouldn't be jumping on you quite as hard if you would just realize that there are different opinions and though your opinion works great for you, it is not the popular opinion in this environment. There are times when you have to realize that you are just digging your own hole deeper. If you want to discuss emulation in a friendly environment, there are plenty of other forums on the net that specialize in just that. I'm sure they will provide you all the support and information you could ever need.  

Personally, I enjoy the hunt for games/hardware and meeting other collectors in the process. I enjoy the act of catalogging what I have and researching what I've found. I enjoy cleaning and restoring/repairing hardware. I enjoy playing the games that I have. To me, going on the net and finding a torrent of every game for system x sucks all of the fun out of classic gaming as there is zero challenge to that. No thrill of the hunt or finding an elusive game for a great price. Add to that less than stellar experience of building/configuring a system, configuring the software, finding the correct drivers, figuring out how to interface controllers, etc and for me, emulation is not an enjoyable experience. But I assure you, I'm no less of a classic gamer than anybody else on this site, including yourself.

You really need to re-read my posts, and stop putting words in my mouth.

Nowhere did I suggest that collectors are wasting their time or money. It's your time and money, spend it as you see fit. All I suggested is that emulation isn't anywhere near as bad or inaccurate as lots of collectors insist.

You keep telling me I don't want to have classic gaming hardware, when I've said - like 3 times now  - I DO actually own classic gaming hardware. Quite a bit of it actually.

[jaybird3rd]

Underball, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:42 AM, said:

I like both. I have both. But this thread just gets entertaining when the die hards start suggesting to people that emulation is "invalid" or "severely lacking". I love cracking back at people who tell me that there's no way I could possibly be enjoying myself, because of something that bothers them which I coulnd't care less about.  

I don't know if anyone here has said that emulation is "invalid"; they've merely said that it isn't a wholly adequate replacement for the original hardware in all situations and for all people, which happens to be true.  You seem to be as much of a "diehard" as the people you're complaining about, and it gives me the impression that there are other issues involved with you that are beyond an abstract discussion of how emulation compares to the original hardware.  If "the diehards" are to blame for taking a dogmatic stance for their personal preferences and making cracks at people for whom the finer points of owning original hardware are "not sufficiently important", aren't you guilty of doing the same thing in the opposite direction?  Being dogmatic, making cracks, and saying that for these people, "the finer points" are too important?

[jaybird3rd]

Underball, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:44 AM, said:

Calling people lazy couch potatoes isn't going to help this discussion become more civil.  

And reading the most negative implications possible into someone's analogy isn't going to do it, either.  Apparently, my use of the term "couch potato" in that context (obviously referring to a fictitious person, not to anyone here) is the only thing you got out of my post, and the wider point I was trying to make was totally lost on you.  That suggests to me that you're not really interested in a substantive discussion, but merely in being combative and using this topic as an excuse to lash out at people you don't like.

I think I'll bow out of this conversation now.  It's an interesting subject, but I'd rather discuss it with a grownup who really wants to intelligently explore it.

[Underball]

98PaceCar, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:43 AM, said:

I may be wrong and you may have the means (which btw, means more than just having money... time, space, patience, contacts, etc all come into play as part of the means to have something. Money is the easy part.). I've seen it played out by a number of fanboys that usually their incessant need to defend the way they approach this hobby stems from something. Usually, it's that they have made a choice, typically not the choice they want to make, and they feel they need others to validate it so they play the devils advocate any chance they get just to make themselves feel better. Simple human nature really, but not a good way to be.

Seriously though. This is some insanely insulting crap.

But because I believe that emulation can be nearly as accurate and enjoyable as the real thing, I'm supposed to just sit here and politely not respond, as I'm being told that the only reason I don't have a house full of classic gaming hardware is because I'm poor, with a small house, and don't know the right people.  

Wow.

[Underball]

jaybird3rd, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:00 AM, said:

Underball, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:44 AM, said:

Calling people lazy couch potatoes isn't going to help this discussion become more civil.  

And reading the most negative implications possible into someone's analogy isn't going to do it, either.  Apparently, my use of the term "couch potato" in that context (obviously referring to a fictitious person, not to anyone here) is the only thing you got out of my post, and the wider point I was trying to make was totally lost on you.  That suggests to me that you're not really interested in a substantive discussion, but merely in being combative and using this topic as an excuse to lash out at people you don't like.

I think I'll bow out of this conversation now.  It's an interesting subject, but I'd rather discuss it with a grownup who really wants to intelligently explore it.

I got your point. you make a good point. You could have made the same point without the offhanded insults though.

[SoulBlazer]

Wow, I didn't espect that this thread would get this active.  What have I unleashed?

I guess one of the major points I was trying to make -- and why I had called this a 'gamer vs collector' argument -- is that I'm not a collector at all and just play games.  Hence, emulation is good enough in 99.9 percent of the cases to please me, despite the shortcomings on it.  A collector who has all the systems and games wouldn't need to emulate, I thought -- save for the few times they are testing games out they don't have or for programing.

[Petran79]

Underball, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:28 AM, said:

I know what you're saying about CRT. I do still have a CRT in my Basement game room, because light gun games and the Sega 3D glasses don't work on LCD. But I have my Atari 7800 and my Genesis hooked up to the LCD TV and they look fantastic. One of the things that always bugged me about CRT/RF as a kid was the shit-awful picture through those clunky RF switchboxes, and all the RF wavy static. Not to mention the bad geometry of Picture Tubes, and the corners/edges of games getting cut off because of the bubbled/rounded corner effects.

I ALWAYS wanted the home console games to be as pixel-accurate as computer games and lots of Arcade games were. But they weren't. They were terrible looking in some cases. Now, with good emulation, shaders, scalers, and a pristine 1080p LCD - It looks 1,000% better than I could have ever hoped for as a kid, while I was cursing that damned RCA junkbox TV and fiddling with the stupid rabbit-ears.

I thought of using a 17" CRT monitor (2005 model) for the PC but considering the radiation, the energy consumption, the size, the picture quality and most of all the toxic lead which harms the environment I prefer the better looking LCD displays. Just one advantage is not enough to switch. I also  lack office space for dual monitors.

[S1500]

Both sides have their ups & downs.

Emulation: not 100% perfect. Bugs/issues in emulators.

Original stuff: You might spend more time hunting down/repairing stuff than actually getting playtime out of it.

Harmony cart,etc: the in-between. The best of both worlds. Original hardware, but easier to get carts on it & play!

For me, a blend of both(except the Harmony cart since I don't have it) is what I'm comfortable with. I'm not concerned on getting complete-in-box games. Loose carts work just fine for me.

[Cynicaster]

I'm extremely thankful to have emulators available to me, but the real hardware is where it's at.  I say this even though I'm not a collector at all, I don't care about crappy rare games that are worth money, I don't care if my games are drenched in Actiplaque, I just want to be able to play the games I enjoy.

Emulation is great, but it'll always be the next best thing to the real thing.

If an analogy is drawn to film, I'd put it like this:

playing classic games on emulator = watching movie on VHS and 14" television with dials

playing classic games on emulator with authentic controllers = watching movie on nice modern home theater system

playing classic games on real hardware with original controllers = watching movie in modern state-of-the-art theater for $12 a ticket

[Hatta]

SoulBlazer, on Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:00 PM, said:

1) It's cheaper.  

Nice things are worth the money.

Quote

2) I use the real controllers so no need to mess around with a mouse and keyboard (2600 joystick, NES pad, etc, all modified for USB input)

How laggy are your USB adaptors?  What about your operating systems USB drivers?  Or the emulator itself?  Real time programming is hard, nobody writes emulators to real time requirements.  

Quote

3) I don't need to bother about repairing old systems, cleaning games, making sure that they work, dealing with hassles, etc....I can just fire up the emulation program and ROM and go.

You don't get to enjoy the feeling of salvaging a piece of history either.  But you do get to worry about other hassles.  Like accuracy of emulation, frame skipping, screen tearing, lag, etc.  

Quote

4) Save states.  Enough said.

Cheater

Quote

5) Can use a nice modern large gaming setup with superior sound and options, even on a LCD monitor.

Nothing stopping you from doing that with real consoles either.  But either way will look better on a real CRT.  And real consoles ALWAYS have superior sound to emulators.  

Quote

6) Can play over the internet with friends.

This is a good use case for emulators.  It does have its places.

Quote

7) Less space needed.  Just a fairly good computer system and several CD's with the ROM's.

Use flash carts!


Emulation *can* be as good as the real thing, but it usually isn't.   Why would I go through the hassle of purchasing a modern PC and dragging it into my game room just so I can play SNES on BSNES?  An SNES + PowerPak is going to be cheaper and more convenient.

[Underball]

Cynicaster, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:31 AM, said:

I'm extremely thankful to have emulators available to me, but the real hardware is where it's at.  I say this even though I'm not a collector at all, I don't care about crappy rare games that are worth money, I don't care if my games are drenched in Actiplaque, I just want to be able to play the games I enjoy.

Emulation is great, but it'll always be the next best thing to the real thing.

If an analogy is drawn to film, I'd put it like this:

playing classic games on emulator = watching movie on VHS and 14" television with dials

playing classic games on emulator with authentic controllers = watching movie on nice modern home theater system

playing classic games on real hardware with original controllers = watching movie in modern state-of-the-art theater for $12 a ticket

Some emulators are like Blu-Ray with a DTS HD-MA receiver and a 65" screen ,with Cambridge Soundworks Newton series speakers.

(which for my money, is better than going to the theater for $12 a ticket and having to listen to some joker texting and talking on his cell.)

Some are like a wet fart in church.

[98PaceCar]

Underball, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:49 AM, said:

You really need to re-read my posts, and stop putting words in my mouth.

Nowhere did I suggest that collectors are wasting their time or money. It's your time and money, spend it as you see fit. All I suggested is that emulation isn't anywhere near as bad or inaccurate as lots of collectors insist.

Okie dokie, let's take a stroll down memory lane and see what we can find. I'm going to limit it to this thread for time's sake. Also bear in mind, I, like most others on this site, am a collector as well as a gamer.

Underball, on Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:32 PM, said:

The lack of RF noise/static and crappy low resolution interlaced displays is the best reason for emulation.

To say otherwise is either prejudiced foolishness, or the mark of someone who is uninformed.

Underball, on Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:01 PM, said:

Some people don't want to clutter up their houses with tons of old games systems cables boxes carts etc.

Just because you have room doesn't mean you should fill every inch of it with dusty old stuff.

Underball, on Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:57 PM, said:

It almost seems like the people here who are saying emulation is so inaccurate haven't actually played any emulators since their computers still ran Windows 98.

Underball, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:00 AM, said:

The list goes on and on. Classic gaming often isn't worth the time, effort and cost investment, when compared to emulation.

Underball, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:28 AM, said:

I think in most cases now, the perceptible difference is barely noticeable if at all - with a  few rare exceptions. And really, the only people who do notice it are the same people who are also visibly bothered by an almost imperceptible 2 millimeter crease on the corner of a cardboard box that a 2600 game was packed in 32 years ago, thus ruining their week and feeling like their world is dashed until they find another one that is "PERFECT - MINT - VIRGIN" or whatever.  

Underball, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:38 AM, said:

What you're describing isn't "Classic Gaming".

It's "The giant pain in the ass that is collecting classic game equipment".

Classic Gaming is PLAYING these games, in any form.

Hence the difference between GAMING and COLLECTING. The only people who care about this distinction are fanatical collectors.

Lot's of "insanely insulting crap" to someone that spends a great deal of time and effort exploring all aspects of classic gaming, wouldn't you say?

Underball, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:05 AM, said:

Seriously though. This is some insanely insulting crap.

But because I believe that emulation can be nearly as accurate and enjoyable as the real thing, I'm supposed to just sit here and politely not respond, as I'm being told that the only reason I don't have a house full of classic gaming hardware is because I'm poor, with a small house, and don't know the right people.  

Wow.

Now this, I will admit I stepped over a line and for that, I apologize. I don't know your means, nor do I even know you personally. My assumptions are based on 2 things; the way you present yourself here in this thread and others and past experiences with others that post in the same way. However, it's odd that you are so willing to make blanket statements that could (and have) offended others here and when you are presented with something that is the same type of blanket statement, you get upset about it.

Like has been mentioned before, I think this could be a very interesting topic and I would imagine that if you could lose the fanboyism, you have a lot of experience to bring to the table and could possibly sway people to your side, or at least inform them where they are incorrect. Sadly, you seem more interested in saying why collectors are doing the wrong things. So, I'm out as well. Enjoy your trip through classic gaming, I hope it serves you well.

[Underball]

98PaceCar, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:13 PM, said:

Underball, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:49 AM, said:

You really need to re-read my posts, and stop putting words in my mouth.

Nowhere did I suggest that collectors are wasting their time or money. It's your time and money, spend it as you see fit. All I suggested is that emulation isn't anywhere near as bad or inaccurate as lots of collectors insist.

Okie dokie, let's take a stroll down memory lane and see what we can find. I'm going to limit it to this thread for time's sake. Also bear in mind, I, like most others on this site, am a collector as well as a gamer.

Underball, on Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:32 PM, said:

The lack of RF noise/static and crappy low resolution interlaced displays is the best reason for emulation.

To say otherwise is either prejudiced foolishness, or the mark of someone who is uninformed.

Underball, on Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:01 PM, said:

Some people don't want to clutter up their houses with tons of old games systems cables boxes carts etc.

Just because you have room doesn't mean you should fill every inch of it with dusty old stuff.

Underball, on Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:57 PM, said:

It almost seems like the people here who are saying emulation is so inaccurate haven't actually played any emulators since their computers still ran Windows 98.

Underball, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:00 AM, said:

The list goes on and on. Classic gaming often isn't worth the time, effort and cost investment, when compared to emulation.

Underball, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:28 AM, said:

I think in most cases now, the perceptible difference is barely noticeable if at all - with a  few rare exceptions. And really, the only people who do notice it are the same people who are also visibly bothered by an almost imperceptible 2 millimeter crease on the corner of a cardboard box that a 2600 game was packed in 32 years ago, thus ruining their week and feeling like their world is dashed until they find another one that is "PERFECT - MINT - VIRGIN" or whatever.  

Underball, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:38 AM, said:

What you're describing isn't "Classic Gaming".

It's "The giant pain in the ass that is collecting classic game equipment".

Classic Gaming is PLAYING these games, in any form.

Hence the difference between GAMING and COLLECTING. The only people who care about this distinction are fanatical collectors.

Lot's of "insanely insulting crap" to someone that spends a great deal of time and effort exploring all aspects of classic gaming, wouldn't you say?

Underball, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:05 AM, said:

Seriously though. This is some insanely insulting crap.

But because I believe that emulation can be nearly as accurate and enjoyable as the real thing, I'm supposed to just sit here and politely not respond, as I'm being told that the only reason I don't have a house full of classic gaming hardware is because I'm poor, with a small house, and don't know the right people.  

Wow.

Now this, I will admit I stepped over a line and for that, I apologize. I don't know your means, nor do I even know you personally. My assumptions are based on 2 things; the way you present yourself here in this thread and others and past experiences with others that post in the same way. However, it's odd that you are so willing to make blanket statements that could (and have) offended others here and when you are presented with something that is the same type of blanket statement, you get upset about it.

Like has been mentioned before, I think this could be a very interesting topic and I would imagine that if you could lose the fanboyism, you have a lot of experience to bring to the table and could possibly sway people to your side, or at least inform them where they are incorrect. Sadly, you seem more interested in saying why collectors are doing the wrong things. So, I'm out as well. Enjoy your trip through classic gaming, I hope it serves you well.

Blanket statements are exactly that. Blanket. They may or may not pertain to you. It's up to you to decide whether they do or not.

You addressed me DIRECTLY.

I have no idea whether my comments about fanatical collectors pertains to you or not. Nor am I suggesting that it does directly.

But even if it did pertain to you, all I was suggesting is that you're seeing some self-assigned value that others might not, and it might be a bit of rose-tinted nostalgia, mixed with personal affectation for something that isn't evident to all. That you're seeing something not everyone agrees with.

You not so subtly called me poor, with a small house, and no "connections" in the classic gaming scene because I told you I like emulation. And it's not just you. It's a pattern among some of the collectors here.  The "Have's" vs. "Have-not's". Same old, same old, elitist old-boy club mentality. This kind of reaction is de riguer around here, more often than not.

If I insulted you, I apologize. You kind of set yourself up as my straw man.

[PsychoKittyNet]

Can't I be both? There seems to be this false dillima going around that eather we are hard core collectors, or we are gamers who just care about the game. I collect carts, but I also play them, and I am not above emulating games that cost too much. My collection is very modest, heck the rarest game I own is Ducktales 2, but I have never been treated as less for it, and if any one does, I will show them how much I don't care. Honestly, am I the only one who thinks this is silly? Were all here for one thing, to talk about great games.

[S1500]

PsychoKittyNet, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:05 PM, said:

Can't I be both? There seems to be this false dillima going around that eather we are hard core collectors, or we are gamers who just care about the game. I collect carts, but I also play them, and I am not above emulating games that cost too much. My collection is very modest, heck the rarest game I own is Ducktales 2, but I have never been treated as less for it, and if any one does, I will show them how much I don't care. Honestly, am I the only one who thinks this is silly? Were all here for one thing, to talk about great games.

I think it's silly. We are trying to define the term "gamer" when it is such a vague statement.

Pimply-faced 15 year old who plays Halo for 16 hours/day? Gamer
Your grandma who sometimes likes to do an occasional round of Angry Birds? Uh, gamer?

Yes, there's that "in the day" experience with the original hardware & TV. In fact, it seems like people who played games back in the day with chicken pox will swear off emulators since you don't also have the opportunity to re-infect yourself with chicken pox. Or something like that.

[SlowCoder]

I very rarely hear anything about people "sticking their noses up" at emulation here on AA.  Most often it's about what works best for you.

I embrace both the real hardware, and emulation.  I'd prefer to play on the real hardware because I get to feel nostalgic in a way that I can't feel with emulation.  But using real hardware glues me to my living room.  I can't take my 2600 in the car for a long trip.  Well, I could, but it would be more hassle than it's worth.  In cases where using real hardware isn't a viable solution, that's where emulation comes in.  I can play in the car, or at a friend's house, etc.  And I can emulate to see what games might be cool that I don't have.  Hell, I can even emulate on my cell phone (though the controls really suck).

So both directions have their own merits.

[HatefulGravey]

I'll admit money is a big reason not to collect. Before I could afford to collect emulation was a great way to play the games I loved as a child. Now that I can afford to collect, a fact I'm very thankful for, I still emulate some things. Mostly things I don't have. I also emulate on my laptop so I can game on the go with it. When I travel for work its nice to have that in the hotel.

My only problem with emulation is the emulators for the older hardware are stale IMO (I personally don't care for Stella at all, but thats another post), and some hardware is just too hard to emulate to be worth it. Why can't Stella have a menu system like every Genesis/NES/SNES emulator out there? Why does it have to be that clunky menu system? Why do I have to configure the pure living crap out of my Sega CD emulator (which I really use KFusion for all things Sega anyway)? Why are do some ROM extentions work for this emulator but not this other one? I understand that there are legal issues people think they can skirt by making it hard as hell to use their emulators, but it really just makes it so hard to use the software that it often isn't worth it. The lack of information on some of the best emulators is crappy too, and people don't want to teach you to use certain emulators like its some secret club or some shit.

The emulators that work well wihtout a pile of work get a lot of use out of me from time to time. The older or over complicated emulators see very little efforts at all. I think DreamCast is the one I have never bothered with for more then an hour. It just isn't worth it.

Now, emulation saves room, money, and time. It has a place. It helps people to create new games in much less time then orginal programmers could have dreamed of, and it lets people play things they would never get to try otherwise. How many people would have ever played Air Raid without it? Not many at all. I personally like to have the real hardware whenever possible, but it is'nt always possible.


EDIT:
Oh, and the subtext in the title makes it seem like you don't think collectors can be gamers... thats all the flame I have for you.

[Chuplayer]

NE146, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:36 AM, said:

I will say this though.. everytime I state that an emulator is "near perfect", I end up playing some game in depth on it and end up finding something off. Usually it's the sound for example.. some background or sound effect will stop working if I keep going back and forth on save states.. or some other goofy thing like that. It's just the nature of the beast, but again it's all good.

It's kind of unfair to say the emulation's inaccurate because you're using savestates and the savestates glitch. Just saying.

Petran79, on Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:28 AM, said:

I thought of using a 17" CRT monitor (2005 model) for the PC but considering the radiation, the energy consumption, the size, the picture quality and most of all the toxic lead which harms the environment I prefer the better looking LCD displays. Just one advantage is not enough to switch. I also  lack office space for dual monitors.

You mad?

Although LCDs these days are pretty good. I never thought I'd warm up to one based on some early computer monitors I'd seen. They were too jerky. My current monitor is super awesome, though.

[theredlineboss]

Hm, I don't have any deep-seated opinions on original hardware vs emulation, so I have used both.  As I enjoy both the tactile and visual feelings of yesteryear, I prefer to collect & use the actual hardware.  Seeking out systems/games/accessories has been rather enjoyable for me as well; you never know what you'll find when hitting up the local flea market or walking into a thrift store.  

If I were solely in it for the games, rather than the search & recreating the old experiences, I probably would switch completely to emulation.  That's not the case for me, so it's back to figuring out how to wire everything to a single television...

-Rob

PS- yeah, I actually have that last part figured out, lol.  It involves switchboxes and cables...lots and lots of cables!  

[Eltigro]

I prefer to play on the actual hardware with an actual cartridge/disk/whatever...

I have only messed around with emulators and ROMs on computers a little and that was about ten years ago or so...

I do enjoy playing what is essentially emulation in the form of the Wii Virtual Console... I have several games for several systems on the VC.  The emulation is really good as far as I can tell, the only downside is not being able to use the controllers that you would have originally used.