Jump to content

Photo

Atari 800 right Slot


51 replies to this topic

#26 FULS OFFLINE  

FULS

    Moonsweeper

  • 332 posts
  • Location:Troy, Ohio

Posted Thu May 31, 2018 4:22 PM

Don't know if this helps but Monkey Wrench 2 initializes in the Right Slot by itself when the Atari is turned on.

ATARI Right Slot.jpg



#27 FULS OFFLINE  

FULS

    Moonsweeper

  • 332 posts
  • Location:Troy, Ohio

Posted Thu May 31, 2018 4:58 PM

Wha tI found so far:

 

Monkey Wrench does not autostart but needs to be initialized by the user using X=USR(....) etc.

http://atariage.com/...-2#entry3913997

 

JAC!,

X=USR(...) is how the Monkey Wrench 2XL is initialized. That cart is for LEFT Slot of the XL/XE with built-in Basic.

Good Luck,

Doug


Edited by FULS, Thu May 31, 2018 5:01 PM.


#28 slx ONLINE  

slx

    Stargunner

  • 1,489 posts
  • Location:Vienna, Austria

Posted Fri Jun 1, 2018 1:00 PM

Don't know if this helps but Monkey Wrench 2 initializes in the Right Slot by itself when the Atari is turned on.

attachicon.gifATARI Right Slot.jpg

 

As stated above the "old" OS from the 400/800 will first check for and initalize a right cartridge and then the left cartridge (which fits the original intention of having "extensions" (like Monkey Wrench for BASIC) in the right cartridge slot (which would need to initialize before the program they extend gets control of the machine). 

 

Monkey Wrench would even work without BASIC and I dimly recall using it to copy some carts.

 

Given the easy availability of larger carts and the limited usefulness of Monkey Wrench (which did not offer much that can't be had in other BASIC variants which offer more overall functionality) a universal right cart solution would be interesting mainly for hardware add-ons like real-time-clocks, ethernet, etc. that cannot be programmed onto flash carts.



#29 ClausB OFFLINE  

ClausB

    Stargunner

  • 1,515 posts
  • Location:Michigan

Posted Fri Jun 1, 2018 3:49 PM

There was a right-cart version of ACE80 too. The OS calls it, it initializes and returns, and the OS continues booting DOS and BASIC, if they are present. Neat and clean.



#30 JAC! OFFLINE  

JAC!

    Stargunner

  • 1,717 posts
  • Always looking for GFX and MSX for my demos
  • Location:Lebach, Germany

Posted Sun Jun 3, 2018 5:28 PM

Well, the bottom-line is:

 

  1. There IS "bootstrapping" code for RIGHT-Cart on OS/a/b but THERE IS NONE in XL/XE...
  2. The above means that there is NO RIGHT-Cart control in such OS.

 

And if we would ever consider enhancing the current-state of affairs, to bring BACK RIGHT-Cart to XL / XE series (for complete cross-platform equivalence), then:

 

  1. I wonder if by means of (say) excellent Sys-Check, our XLs could run with TWO carts. attached at the same time (LEFT on central port, and RIGHT on Sys-Check port)
  2. In the above case (XL/XE or especially Atari 800 / Incognito running XL/XE OS), some form of extra code is needed to recognize and handle  a physically-present RIGHT-cart.
  3. The question then is where to add such code... FJC's wonderful BIOS? or just on The! Cart, so we have a "luxury" (x2) The!Cart setup on the A800? Left one for most of what we know, and right one for all right-cart stuff available plus any other appropriate use in the future...

 

I remembered finally that I have do an OLD OS (OS B) switch on my TurboFreezer and yes, when using it the right cart is initialized correctly even on my 65XE machine.
My test code boots up and everythings is just fine.

 

I don't think it makes sense to have the right slot in any "future Atari", there are so few carts with so few use-cases that it far easier to just but the related 8k's into one 16k an be done.

Regarding The!Cart it've added corresponding section for "right carts" to the FAQ.

http://www.wudsn.com...0/tools/thecart



#31 Faicuai OFFLINE  

Faicuai

    Dragonstomper

  • 812 posts
  • Location:Florida, U.S.A.

Posted Sun Jun 3, 2018 7:19 PM

 

I remembered finally that I have do an OLD OS (OS B) switch on my TurboFreezer and yes, when using it the right cart is initialized correctly even on my 65XE machine.
My test code boots up and everythings is just fine.

 

I don't think it makes sense to have the right slot in any "future Atari", there are so few carts with so few use-cases that it far easier to just but the related 8k's into one 16k an be done.

Regarding The!Cart it've added corresponding section for "right carts" to the FAQ.

http://www.wudsn.com...0/tools/thecart

 

NICE!!! But....

 

Does that mean that I can plug The! Cart on the right-slot, boots to its menu, and then select any right-cart image loaded, and then boots again?



#32 JAC! OFFLINE  

JAC!

    Stargunner

  • 1,717 posts
  • Always looking for GFX and MSX for my demos
  • Location:Lebach, Germany

Posted Mon Jun 4, 2018 4:59 AM

 

NICE!!! But....

 

Does that mean that I can plug The! Cart on the right-slot, boots to its menu, and then select any right-cart image loaded, and then boots again?

 

From the FAQ:

 

Does The!Cart support the right cartridge slot?

  • The!Cart itself is designed for the left cartridge slot, so it is can work the same way in all Atari 8-bit computers. It does not work in the right slot of the Atari 800.
  • It can emulate 8k right slot cartridges while being plugged in the left cartridge slot of any Atari 8-bit computer including the Atari 800. Note that auto-start of right slot cartridges is only supported if the Atari computer uses OS-A or OS-B.
  • Because The!Cart can only emulate one cartridge at a time, it is not possible to emulate an right slot cartridge (e.g. Monkey Wrench) and a left slot cartridge (e.g. ATARI BASIC) simultaneously. But this can be solve by putting both 8 KB ROM files into a single 16 KB ROM file and include that as "Standard 16 KB" entry.


#33 ClausB OFFLINE  

ClausB

    Stargunner

  • 1,515 posts
  • Location:Michigan

Posted Wed Jun 6, 2018 7:22 AM

From the original OS A/OS B listing, the only reference to $9FFx is in comment, not in the code.

;
;
; THE FOLLOWING EQUATES ARE IN THE CARTRIDGE ADDRESS SPACE.
;
;
; "B" CARTRIDGE ADDR'S ARE 8000-9FFF (36K CONFIG. ONLY)
; "A" CART. ADDR'S ARE A000-BFFF (36K CONFIG. ONLY)
;
; "A" CART. ADDR'S ARE B000-BFFF (48K CONFIG. ONLY)
;

 

Those comments are odd. 36K? B000-BFFF? Explanation here: http://atariage.com/...-2#entry1567359



#34 Kyle22 OFFLINE  

Kyle22

    River Patroller

  • 3,508 posts
  • Call my BBS! telnet://broadway1.lorexddns.net
  • Location:McKees Rocks (Pittsburgh), PA

Posted Thu Jun 7, 2018 5:13 PM

From the FAQ:
 
Does The!Cart support the right cartridge slot?

  • The!Cart itself is designed for the left cartridge slot, so it is can work the same way in all Atari 8-bit computers. It does not work in the right slot of the Atari 800.
  • It can emulate 8k right slot cartridges while being plugged in the left cartridge slot of any Atari 8-bit computer including the Atari 800. Note that auto-start of right slot cartridges is only supported if the Atari computer uses OS-A or OS-B.
  • Because The!Cart can only emulate one cartridge at a time, it is not possible to emulate an right slot cartridge (e.g. Monkey Wrench) and a left slot cartridge (e.g. ATARI BASIC) simultaneously. But this can be solve by putting both 8 KB ROM files into a single 16 KB ROM file and include that as "Standard 16 KB" entry.
I have done that very thing and it works perfectly on my Ultimate SD cart.

#35 Faicuai OFFLINE  

Faicuai

    Dragonstomper

  • 812 posts
  • Location:Florida, U.S.A.

Posted Sat Jun 9, 2018 12:57 PM

 

 

From the FAQ:

 

Does The!Cart support the right cartridge slot?

  • The!Cart itself is designed for the left cartridge slot, so it is can work the same way in all Atari 8-bit computers. It does not work in the right slot of the Atari 800.
  • It can emulate 8k right slot cartridges while being plugged in the left cartridge slot of any Atari 8-bit computer including the Atari 800. Note that auto-start of right slot cartridges is only supported if the Atari computer uses OS-A or OS-B.
  • Because The!Cart can only emulate one cartridge at a time, it is not possible to emulate an right slot cartridge (e.g. Monkey Wrench) and a left slot cartridge (e.g. ATARI BASIC) simultaneously. But this can be solve by putting both 8 KB ROM files into a single 16 KB ROM file and include that as "Standard 16 KB" entry.

 

 

Thanks!

 

Now, couldn't or shouldn't the A800's right-port be used to flash The! Cart? Or said in other terms: would it be feasible to exploit the right-port differences to at least enable proper flashing on the A800 and take advantage of that port? Or are the current data / address lines on that port a limitation for that?

 

(note: putting aside the "dummy cart" and trace-cut solution already proposed)



#36 JAC! OFFLINE  

JAC!

    Stargunner

  • 1,717 posts
  • Always looking for GFX and MSX for my demos
  • Location:Lebach, Germany

Posted Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:02 PM

>Now, couldn't or shouldn't the A800's right-port be used to flash The! Cart?
Mechanically you can, but nothing useful will happen, hence "It does not work in the right slot of the Atari 800."
The pins 1,2,14 and A carry different signals on the right slot compared to the left slot. They are simply incompatible because Atari decided them to be incompatible.
See also page 50 of the FSM

http://www.atarimani...ual_June_82.pdf

In particular the right slot can only appear as 8k in $8000-$9fff, whereas the left slot can appear as any combination 8k@$8000,8k@A000,16K@8000.
And with the 16k@A000 you can have a left a and right carts as single ROM in the left slot.

 

copy /b monkeywrench.rom+basic.rom allinone16k.rom 

 

And the result will work on all Atari 8-bit machines with OS-B incl. 400 and 800 XL (with alternative OS-B).

Therefore I don't see any point in bothering with the physical right slot at all anymore.


  • slx likes this

#37 luckybuck OFFLINE  

luckybuck

    Dragonstomper

  • 862 posts

Posted Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:51 PM

No JAC! Please tell me, this is not true, just:

 

copy /b monkeywrench.rom+basic.rom allinone16k.rom

 

and it is working? Incredible! :-))))))))))

 

You are the best! Keep going.

 

Sure, under these circumstances, it doesn't make sense, to do extra work. Anyway, I may can imagine (but I don't know), that the software from The!Cart ask first of a right cart, if no, then just the left cart. Just loud thinking...

 

Great job! :-))))

 

Will check and put into the wiki with credits to you.

 

Thank you! :-)



#38 Rybags OFFLINE  

Rybags

    Quadrunner

  • 15,754 posts
  • Location:Australia

Posted Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:15 PM

On the XL/XE OS though, a right cart setup like that won't initialize.

But supposedly with MW 1 it doesn't matter since you've got to do it manually anyway.



#39 luckybuck OFFLINE  

luckybuck

    Dragonstomper

  • 862 posts

Posted Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:20 PM

Yes, fully agree, just tested this. Now on OS B.



#40 luckybuck OFFLINE  

luckybuck

    Dragonstomper

  • 862 posts

Posted Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:29 PM

Have tested it on a Mac with Terminal:

 

Here we go:

 

cat file1.rom file2.rom > allin.rom

 

When testing under XL => nope...

 

When testing under OS B => nope dito... :-(

 

But! When telling the Atari800MacX emulator to load Monkey 1 or 2 as cart while enable Basic, it works like a charm! :-))))

 

Monkey1.jpg

 

Monkey2.jpg

 

Therefore, I am quite optimistic, with a few catch 17 tricks, we will gonna make it!



#41 JAC! OFFLINE  

JAC!

    Stargunner

  • 1,717 posts
  • Always looking for GFX and MSX for my demos
  • Location:Lebach, Germany

Posted Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:38 PM

Works in Altirra with OS-B enabled. 

Attached Thumbnails

  • Right.png

Attached Files



#42 luckybuck OFFLINE  

luckybuck

    Dragonstomper

  • 862 posts

Posted Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:57 PM

Sadly, on the Atari800MacX not, but we can skip this, if it runs in Altirra, it runs. Point. The Mac users noe have Altirra as double-click version, so the case can be closed. Great. :-)

 

?

 

Have tried your ZIP and it is now working on Atari800MacX, too! :-)))

 

But then something with the cat command must be wrong. Anyway, there must be a difference in the both files. Binary compare must be done.

 

So, with this catch 17 trick, all those, who want to load right carts can do so by combining the 2 desired ROMs. Case closed. Great work JAC! As always. :-)



#43 luckybuck OFFLINE  

luckybuck

    Dragonstomper

  • 862 posts

Posted Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:25 AM

???

 

 

I really didn't get it, have compared both files:

 

identical.jpg

 

and guess what? It now works even on the Atari800MacX emulator...

 

But only with Monkey Wrench I, not with Monkey Wrench II...

 

Does Monkey Wrench II works with the copy /b method on your Altirra?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Attached File  Monkey2_and_Basic.rom.zip   11.69KB   10 downloads


Edited by luckybuck, Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:29 AM.


#44 a8isa1 ONLINE  

a8isa1

    Stargunner

  • 1,509 posts

Posted Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:01 AM

IIRC there was a Monkey Wrench 2 XL version.

 

Using the original version, and merging 2 carts into 1, you can type X=USR(32767) in order to initialize the MW2 image.   This is only necessary when used with XL/XE.



#45 luckybuck OFFLINE  

luckybuck

    Dragonstomper

  • 862 posts

Posted Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:20 AM

Hi a8isa1,

 

Wow, that reads good, didn't know about that, especially, because the XL has just one slot... on the other hand, the Basic as chip on board...

 

Do you mind to upload or send me this version for the Wiki?

 

Would be cool, thank you so much.



#46 a8isa1 ONLINE  

a8isa1

    Stargunner

  • 1,509 posts

Posted Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:41 AM

IIRC there was a Monkey Wrench 2 XL version.

 

Using the original version, and merging 2 carts into 1, you can type X=USR(32767) in order to initialize the MW2 image.   This is only necessary when used with XL/XE.

Oops!

 

That should be:

 

X=USR(32768)

 

An "Error 9" is generated but that's normal for the merged image

 



#47 a8isa1 ONLINE  

a8isa1

    Stargunner

  • 1,509 posts

Posted Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:42 AM

Hi a8isa1,

 

Wow, that reads good, didn't know about that, especially, because the XL has just one slot... on the other hand, the Basic as chip on board...

 

Do you mind to upload or send me this version for the Wiki?

 

Would be cool, thank you so much.

I tried to compare my old merged image with yours.   They don't match.   I'm sure I used BASIC Rev. A.   That's probably the reason.

 

Serious Computerist posted original cart images and documentation (see below).

 

http://seriouscomput...tm#MonkeyWrench

 

p.s.

Here's a quick tip for use in Emulators.  

 

Eastern House recognized that people might not like Monkey Wrench's cursor key remappings.  You can type >E to use standard Atari mappings.  >E a second time returns to the Eastern House mapping.

 

The remappings work very poorly in Emulators.  Perhaps someone will make a suitable key map for Altirra. 


Edited by a8isa1, Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:53 AM.


#48 luckybuck OFFLINE  

luckybuck

    Dragonstomper

  • 862 posts

Posted Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:47 AM

Great! Thank you so much. Yes, Serious Computerist is a totally reliably and trustworthy site. I have made, with the receipt from JAC!, the version with Basic C, of course. Cool, with the site we should be able to bring this to an end. Many, many thanks. :-)))



#49 JAC! OFFLINE  

JAC!

    Stargunner

  • 1,717 posts
  • Always looking for GFX and MSX for my demos
  • Location:Lebach, Germany

Posted Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:41 PM

Monkey Wrench II: both versions v1/v2 with BASIC Rev. C. appear to work fine in Altirra with OS-B.

 

 

Attached Files



#50 luckybuck OFFLINE  

luckybuck

    Dragonstomper

  • 862 posts

Posted Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:48 PM

Thank you JAC!, Well in Atari800MacX on a Mac it looks like this:

 

Bildschirmfoto 2018-06-15 um 00.45.01.jpg

 

On the other hand, on Altirra on Mac (published before), it works like a charm!

 

=> we have to trash the beloved emulator for the Mac and must switch to Altirra. It seems, there are more problems with that emulator then just the missing sound.

 

Wade will compile a new version for Atari800MacX in the future, until to that point Altirra is without any alternative.

 

Thank you very much JAC! Big sorry for the trouble, but I think, we have discovered here a ground based problem.


Edited by luckybuck, Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:52 PM.





0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users