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The future of the Stella emulator


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#26 SeaGtGruff OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 9, 2011 4:02 AM

I dug up some Z26 modifications to fix the TIA sound issue that bugged the heck out of me.

Are you saying Stella has some issues with TIA sound emulation? As it happens, one of my current projects involves learning whatever I can about TIA sound. I haven't started running any test programs on my heavy-sixer 2600 versus emulation-- at the moment I'm still going through old [stella] posts and trying to decipher the TIA schematics-- but if there's anything you know of that's an issue, I'm curious to know what it is so I can try to research it.

Michael

#27 thegoldenband OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 9, 2011 10:49 AM

Are you saying Stella has some issues with TIA sound emulation? As it happens, one of my current projects involves learning whatever I can about TIA sound. I haven't started running any test programs on my heavy-sixer 2600 versus emulation-- at the moment I'm still going through old [stella] posts and trying to decipher the TIA schematics-- but if there's anything you know of that's an issue, I'm curious to know what it is so I can try to research it.

This reminds me of an issue I bumped into, namely that this "phaser" demo of mine, which sounds great on Stella (including the current version), didn't really work out on real hardware.

If your researches can help explain that, I'd be very interested, as it's pretty much beyond my technical ability to sort out what's going on. I assume it's got something to do with either the starting state of the TIA, or timing issues.

Edited by thegoldenband, Thu Jun 9, 2011 10:53 AM.


#28 stephena OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 9, 2011 11:44 AM

Are you saying Stella has some issues with TIA sound emulation? As it happens, one of my current projects involves learning whatever I can about TIA sound. I haven't started running any test programs on my heavy-sixer 2600 versus emulation-- at the moment I'm still going through old [stella] posts and trying to decipher the TIA schematics-- but if there's anything you know of that's an issue, I'm curious to know what it is so I can try to research it.

This reminds me of an issue I bumped into, namely that this "phaser" demo of mine, which sounds great on Stella (including the current version), didn't really work out on real hardware.

If your researches can help explain that, I'd be very interested, as it's pretty much beyond my technical ability to sort out what's going on. I assume it's got something to do with either the starting state of the TIA, or timing issues.

Of course I'd be interested in finding out what's going on with this too ...

#29 Philsan OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 9, 2011 12:14 PM

Please, don't abandon Stella!
Thank you very much for your precious work!

#30 Philsan OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 9, 2011 12:17 PM

Stephen, please, don't abandon Stella!
Thank you very much for your precious work!

#31 stephena OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:17 PM

First of all, thanks for the feedback. It helps to put things in perspective, and gives me a few things to think about. I think Eckhard probably summed up the situation a lot closer than he realizes. I need to find things to work on that I find enjoyable, in addition to the normal bug-fixing. Not that bug-fixing shouldn't happen. It just needs to be mixed with adding new and exciting features that keep me interested overall. I think the weekly grind of only fixing bugs starts to wear you down, and while it's obviously benefiting everyone using Stella, it's not always terribly exciting to the developer. Now don't go away thinking that this means I don't want bug reports; I do. I just need to learn how to better manage my time to also work on 'fun' things.

With that in mind, I'm going to say that for now I will continue to work on Stella. But I'm going to start the next major release (4.0) with something I've always wanted to do; concentrate exclusively on OpenGL rendering. I may keep a minimal software renderer around, but it will be very deficient in features. That means no scaling or graphical filters, no movie recording (when it eventually gets added), and minimal supported resolutions. The biggest drain on my enthusiasm is keeping a fully-supported software renderer in 2011, when even the crappiest OpenGL card is orders of magnitude faster. And if someone doesn't have such a card, they're free to stick to the 3.x versions.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. I think moving to a new major release and mixing things up a little will make the project more enjoyable for me, and hopefully make a better emulator for you. And who knows, if I'm more motivated, some of the new features that you've been requesting (like movie recording) might happen faster.

#32 cd-w OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:07 AM

With that in mind, I'm going to say that for now I will continue to work on Stella. But I'm going to start the next major release (4.0) with something I've always wanted to do; concentrate exclusively on OpenGL rendering. I may keep a minimal software renderer around, but it will be very deficient in features. That means no scaling or graphical filters, no movie recording (when it eventually gets added), and minimal supported resolutions. The biggest drain on my enthusiasm is keeping a fully-supported software renderer in 2011, when even the crappiest OpenGL card is orders of magnitude faster. And if someone doesn't have such a card, they're free to stick to the 3.x versions.


Sounds good to me. Perhaps you could keep the 3.x release branch open for a while in a bug-fix only mode for people with older hardware, i.e. trivial bugfixes get back-ported from 4.x, but new features are exclusive to 4.x?

Chris

#33 Thomas Jentzsch OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:41 PM

Now don't go away thinking that this means I don't want bug reports; I do. I just need to learn how to better manage my time to also work on 'fun' things.

How about a public bug classification? People will understand that low priority bugs have to wait for high priority fixes and there will be less complaints about the low priority bugs then.

Also, AA offers a bug tracker, that might help too. Especially if you track all bugs. Then the huge amount of work you put into this project will become way more transparent. And people will understand why you can fix only so many bugs in some time.

#34 Gregory DG OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:11 PM

When it comes to emulators (especially 2600 ones) the only thing I care about is near-perfect colors/sound, joystick support, full screen with the correct aspect ratio, and *FAST* loading. All the other stuff is just unnecessary IMO.

#35 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:26 PM

When it comes to emulators (especially 2600 ones) the only thing I care about is near-perfect colors/sound, joystick support, full screen with the correct aspect ratio, and *FAST* loading. All the other stuff is just unnecessary IMO.


I've never seen an emulator load slow on any modern day machines. Especially a 2k 2600 rom or something. Even my 486 would blast through the loading portion of the emu and the rom.

#36 stephena OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:34 PM

Now don't go away thinking that this means I don't want bug reports; I do. I just need to learn how to better manage my time to also work on 'fun' things.

How about a public bug classification? People will understand that low priority bugs have to wait for high priority fixes and there will be less complaints about the low priority bugs then.

Also, AA offers a bug tracker, that might help too. Especially if you track all bugs. Then the huge amount of work you put into this project will become way more transparent. And people will understand why you can fix only so many bugs in some time.

Stella does make use of the AtariAge bug tracker in exactly the way you suggest. Or at least it did until the last forum update, after which the Stella tracker is no longer available. I've sent several emails to Al as well as mentioning it during the past few releases, but it still hasn't been fixed.

#37 Trebor OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:30 PM

stephena,

Just wanted to add my voice on how much I appreciate your efforts and the work put into Stella. Many are grateful for it, but often fall under the silent majority.

I especially appreciate how everything is remappable to one or several inputs and input devices. I agree also to drop the software rendering, especially if it causing so many problems, headaches, and has become unmanageable. If it was ten maybe even five years ago, I could see keeping it, but we're in 2011 now.

For the end user, OpenGL has been around for quite some time, inclusive of the following versions:

1.4 - July 2002.
1.5 - July 2003.
2.0 - September 2004.
2.1 - July 2006.

Heck even 3.0 has been around since July 2008.

Requiring OpenGL of 1.X or even 2.X should be no big deal. It has been nearly five years since the 2.1 release and nearly seven years since OpenGL 2.0.

Regardless, whatever you decide to do, take care of you *first*. Your health and well-being is much more important than any hobby. My hope is that you keep up the great work of the best Atari 2600 emulator available, but not to your detriment.

Edited by Trebor, Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:34 PM.


#38 Mirage OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:13 PM

Stella is by far and away my favorite emulator, so I certainly hope development continues, but of course not at the expense of your happiness.

In case it hasn't been said, one of the most important reasons for emulator development is so that something still exists for people to play the software on in the future, once working hardware becomes harder, or impossible, to find. So, that said, the way I would go about it, since it sounds like it would be easier for you, is to just cut all the legacy stuff altogether. Eliminate the software rendering, the PowerPC support, and anything else holding back development. The old versions will still be there for people with the older machines to use as necessary. Look toward the future and what is most likely to continue to work in the future and allow for easier or more advanced development.

Long live Stella!

#39 barnieg OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:02 PM

Would donations help? Also how easy is it for others to contribute at the moment? Maybe it would be possible to set-up a code bounty for the more boring parts of development?

As for dropping opengl support - even relatively old pentium machines can have some form of accelerated opengl. If software rendering support is important I'm sure someone will pick-up and work on the older code base

Barnie

Edited by barnieg, Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:04 PM.


#40 Shannon ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:27 AM

I dug up some Z26 modifications to fix the TIA sound issue that bugged the heck out of me.

Are you saying Stella has some issues with TIA sound emulation? As it happens, one of my current projects involves learning whatever I can about TIA sound. I haven't started running any test programs on my heavy-sixer 2600 versus emulation-- at the moment I'm still going through old [stella] posts and trying to decipher the TIA schematics-- but if there's anything you know of that's an issue, I'm curious to know what it is so I can try to research it.

Michael

No it was an issue with Z26 which x-port ported to the x-box. I'm pretty sure he updated it to the latest Z26 at the time. But for an example load up Megamania in both stella and an older version of Z26. Listen to the shooting sounds from your player. Stella has it right... So I stumbled across a SVN that had fixes for that and tried them and they worked. But it's all ASM.

#41 stephena OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:20 AM

Would donations help? Also how easy is it for others to contribute at the moment? Maybe it would be possible to set-up a code bounty for the more boring parts of development?

Really, the main problem is two-fold:

1) The code is probably not the friendliest to get into. It's written in optimized C++, and while it's well commented and generally well structured, it is C++, and hence quite a few people without experience in object-oriented languages might find it a bit intimidating.

2) I really need to learn when to step back from things for a little while, take a break and rest a little. That's something I'm still working on :)

I don't think monetary rewards will really work, since any amount collected from the limited number of users available probably wouldn't add up to a significant amount. Besides, I don't think most people are involved in this hobby for the money.

At the same time, I welcome all donations of old hardware, games, manuals, etc. While most of these items might not directly help with development, they'll definitely be appreciated (and a happy developer is usually a more productive developer ;) ). If you're wondering what hardware I'd like to get, anything 2600 related would be great (console, games, manuals, etc). But a working 7800 would be nice too, especially since I've never actually seen one before.

As for dropping opengl support - even relatively old pentium machines can have some form of accelerated opengl. If software rendering support is important I'm sure someone will pick-up and work on the older code base

I'm almost 100% sure at this point that OpenGL will be the default and my main focus. I may keep the software renderer around as a fallback, if it doesn't cause problems with anything else. But it will be a neutered version, without support for almost all the current (and future) features.

Finally, I'd like to say again that I appreciate feedback. In particular, I appreciate the person who reports a bug with details of what is happening and what is supposed to happen. And if they give a good explanation by making use of the debugger and test ROMs, then that makes things much easier on me.

#42 Buzbard OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:23 AM

Back in the mid 90s, when Windows 95 was just released, a friend of mine who had an old 386 computer, I believe it was only 16Mhz, really wanted Win95 on his machine.
So, I went to his house and installed Win95 on his very slow machine, it took hours to install. And when finally finished installing, it ran super slow. I told him that he really needed a new computer, at least a 486 33Mhz but he just wasn't willing to upgrade, and he still wanted Win95. I finally had to just step back and tell him that it wasn't going to work the way he wanted it to.

I think maybe it's time to do the same with software rendering and just move on to OpenGL, and if some people have problems with that then it's time for an upgrade.
Not only you, but everyone else who uses Stella are being held back by these stubborn people who are unwilling to move in to the 21st century.

As far as anyone saying that Stella does not have 100% perfect emulation, all that can really be said to them is, if you want your games to run 100% perfect, "USE REAL HARDWARE!!!"
I don't believe any emulator can run with 100% accuracy, that's why it's called emulation.

If z26 is so much more accurate, then why are emulators for other systems, (PSP, XBox, Wii, PS2, etc..) based on Stella?

As others have said in this thread, Stella is the default emulator, on all of my machines. I have used z26, and other emulators in the past, but in my opinion, none of them can really compare to Stella.

Thanks stephena for all of your hard work over the years on this great project.

#43 dwane413 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:45 PM

Not only you, but everyone else who uses Stella are being held back by these stubborn people who are unwilling to move in to the 21st century.

My computer is over five years old, but I don't see how me using it is any more stubborn then it is for me to use an Atari 2600 instead of a PS3 or Wii. Perhaps instead of asking for a Harmony cartridge for Christmas, I should have asked for a Wii and moved into the 21st century.

OpenGL does not run as fast as software rendering on my HP Compaq Presario SR1620NX (Sempron 2GHz, 512MB RAM, 160GB HDD). Twice while using OpenGL with Stell 3.4, my computer would act strange for a little bit and then show this message:
Stella.png
(I updated my display driver on May 9, 2011.)

I have no problem with Stephen dropping software rendering. For what I've paid for Stella (nothing), I can't complain. It is a great emulator and I want Stephen to go with whatever makes him happy. If future versions won't work on this old computer, I can continue using an old version. New versions might work better on my laptop which is a little over two years old.
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#44 stephena OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:45 PM

Not only you, but everyone else who uses Stella are being held back by these stubborn people who are unwilling to move in to the 21st century.

My computer is over five years old, but I don't see how me using it is any more stubborn then it is for me to use an Atari 2600 instead of a PS3 or Wii. Perhaps instead of asking for a Harmony cartridge for Christmas, I should have asked for a Wii and moved into the 21st century.

OpenGL does not run as fast as software rendering on my HP Compaq Presario SR1620NX (Sempron 2GHz, 512MB RAM, 160GB HDD). Twice while using OpenGL with Stell 3.4, my computer would act strange for a little bit and then show this message:

I have no problem with Stephen dropping software rendering. For what I've paid for Stella (nothing), I can't complain. It is a great emulator and I want Stephen to go with whatever makes him happy. If future versions won't work on this old computer, I can continue using an old version. New versions might work better on my laptop which is a little over two years old.

To be fair, it isn't necessarily stubborn users holding Stella back, but stubborn hardware developers that create drivers mostly optimized only for Windows, and concentrating on Direct3D instead of OpenGL as a lock-in mechanism to keep you on that platform. I must say that those issues have wore me down over the years as well. There's no technical reason why OpenGL should be any slower than Windows-only technology. It's purely a way to make OpenGL look unattractive and force developers to use DirectX instead.

Anyway, while I will be moving to OpenGL, I still have to research how to not cut off too many people. I have to balance keeping as many people as possible able to use Stella, and moving to newer technologies that allow much better performance. And it's not always an easy thing to do.

#45 Buzbard OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:30 PM

It wasn't my intention to place blame solely on the end users, my main PC is also quite old, and as long as it does what I need it to do, I'll continue to use it.

If you decide to modify Stella to the point that my PC is no longer sufficient, then it will give me the excuse to upgrade, and I'm looking forward to seeing how Stella will evolve.

#46 Chris++ OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:05 PM

All I can relate is one person's experiences, but Stella is the only VCS emulator I use. It remains the standard; to coin a cliche, it's where the bar is set.

It was also the first emulator of any kind that I ever used (I was a relative latecomer to post-Amiga computers). Its easy configuration and straightforward interface broke the intimidation barrier for me, and opened the floodgates that led to hours upon hours of joy in MAME, C64 emulators, etc.

I was finally able to play all of those old games I'd only wondered about in the past, having read about them in the magazines of the day; at twenty to forty bucks a pop during the 1980s, cartridges were not available to young people in satisfactory amounts.

The feature that allows the player to save screen shots gave me incentive to become an even better player and beat a lot of my old high scores, and I irrationally fetish a Superman image that claims for posterity my 0:57 (non-cheat) record. The ability to save my place in any game, while not applied to high-score sessions of course, has allowed me to finally beat several old games that I just couldn't master back when they were new (I play for pleasure, rather than to prove some "manly" point to myself about enduring hours of stress).

For me, your emulator breathed a lot of new life into the first platform I ever had.

I'm not a fan of Vista or 7 (to put it mildly), so I still run XP. So while I can only offer that context, I find that the most recent complete version of Stella works perfectly, and I haven't the slightest complaint or bit of "constructive criticism." I'm not a VCS programmer, so I can only speak from a player's point of view: I can find only praise for Stella. I find it difficult to articulate my gratefulness for your immense efforts.

I suppose that the unfortunate tendency for people to speak up or contact a creator only when they have something to complain about -- or ask for help with -- is the bane of our culture's few remaining astonishing minds. I don't mean to be melodramatic about it, but I blame myself just as much as anyone else. I'm willing to help in any way I can, but my programming experience is only comprised of thirty years of advanced BASIC (on several platforms), AMOS on the Amiga, and some C64 Assembly. Maybe I can help with some busy work? (I know you weren't baiting for assistance, but I can't help but to offer.)

If this makes any difference to you (and obviously, it's perfectly valid if it doesn't), the Stella emulator will remain a pioneering part of gaming history for all time. Nothing can negate this fact. This is no small deal; our hobby/fixation is kept alive and kicking primarily due to those who continue to create, rather than because of those of us who merely write articles, share tips, make maps and banter online about old games, all without more than a passing clue about what was involved behind the scenes to create those games in the first place, let alone what's involved in continuing to make them available (and maintain websites like this -- another thing that's easily taken for granted).

Having said all of that, you only go around once, so I obviously agree entirely with GroovyBee: Having a good time is the primary objective.

From the bottoms of my plastic tubs full of classic strategy magazines and game manuals that I've collected over the years and can now apply to the actual games: Thank you.

#47 toiletunes OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:28 PM

Stella is the only Atari emulator I use. For a long time I used version 2.4.2 because I didn't want to give up the "non-browse" functionality, but after installing 3.3 on my laptop I liked the pattern matching textbox. I also wanted DPC+ programs to run. So I started weening myself from using the non-browse feature. I now have 3.4 on my main computer and I realize that I no longer need the non-browsing mode.

I want you to know that your work on Stella is appreciated, but at the same time I don't expect you to continue working on it if it is no longer fun. When I get burned out on something, I'll forget about it for a while and come back to it later. So do whatever is best for you. If that means there will be no more updates on Stella, I still plan to keep using it unless something better comes along someday.

Thanks for giving us this great emulator. :)


I can't think of a thing to add, this says it all. Thanks again nonetheless.

#48 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:45 AM

Just look at all these letters and commentaries of good-will!

NOW..
I run stella on a 2004 computer, 1.7GHz Dothan core, 82855GM (intel integrated graphics) about the worst you can get. And it runs silky smooth with openGL 1.3! And it blasts through the rom listings of a billion roms like nobody's business. So unless you got even worser(!) hardware, I think the performance is right on.

It gets top speed too on a Celeron 1.4GHz with that old-style ram and an ISA soundcard and PCI bus videoboard..

Edited by Keatah, Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:58 AM.


#49 Nathan Strum OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:03 AM

I appreciate all of your hard work with Stella. I use Stella frequently, for playing, testing, and helping with development. It's the only 2600 emulator I use, and just about the only emulator I use period.

I've always been impressed at how much and how steadily Stella improves, and how many features/requests/fixes you respond to and add to the emulator with each new release (speaking of which, thank you for 3.4.1 - it's nice to have my mouse back ;) ).

2) I really need to learn when to step back from things for a little while, take a break and rest a little. That's something I'm still working on :)


That's important. I've gotten burned out various projects, and find that from time to time it really does help to just get away from it completely for a few weeks or even months. If I try and force myself to work on stuff that I really don't want to, I get resentful towards it. But if I just walk away from it for a bit, I usually rediscover why I enjoyed it in the first place.

I'm all for any improvements or changes you'd like to make to Stella. I wish that had happened with MacMAME, instead of it dying the death it did. And even if there are changes that Apple makes that leaves my creaky old PPC Mac behind, well, I can hang onto the current version of Stella until I can afford a shiny new one. :D

#50 Nathan Strum OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:10 AM

Here's some feedback that's not exactly about Stella, but it's still feedback: When you release a new version, you post the text in a code box and that makes it hard for me to read, especially when the text turns green because an apostrophe was used. So I usually don't even try to read it. Example:

I like chicken and pizza. It's the best.
One example of good web design is the pimento shoestring.
Elbow knuckle wax is helpful to initiate the puppy banjo flashlight.
Peanut butter coyote Christmas is often the only time when
jawbone pancake jelly is available.
At no time is abstract doorknob floss to be used since
it could cause morbid granularity.


And now, the same text, but using "html" as the tag, instead of "code":


I like chicken and pizza. It's the best.
One example of good web design is the pimento shoestring.
Elbow knuckle wax is helpful to initiate the puppy banjo flashlight.
Peanut butter coyote Christmas is often the only time when
jawbone pancake jelly is available.
At no time is abstract doorknob floss to be used since
it could cause morbid granularity.


It tends to colorize simple text less than "code" does.




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