Apple II series homebrew software..

[Keatah]

Yeh folks! I see quite a bit of homebrew hardware projects for the II series. But very little, if any, software other than what is required to support the new hardware. There aren't no hit games or new arcade translations. You know, stuff like that. Nothing like the 2600 and 8-bit machines anyways. Let alone the C-64.. Tons of recent stuff for those machines!

 

Is it because the II series doesn't really have a custom graphics/sound chip? Or because it doesn't have a lot of undiscovered and undocumented features hiding in those (lack of) custom chips? Or perhaps everything has been done already? Maybe it's the lack of colors compared to other 8-bit machines? Or the unorthodox bit-map layout? Maybe it's something I'm not mentioning?

 

Maybe it's even the style and type/personality of the folks remaining here nowadays that were around in the Apple II days. I mean to say that the types of folks that got into the II series were more serious and had a penchant for doing hardware and the type of logic and thinking that goes with interfacing and building circuits. As opposed to the software-type. The Apple II probably had the most hardware devs of any 8-bit machine. Whereas the C-64 and Atari (and Apple II) platforms probably had a similar number of software guys. With the C-64 and Atari platforms having a little more, I think.

 

But there *is* an extensive and existing gaming library already. Though despite the number of games on II series (and *my* quite extensive library of games), it somehow doesn't feel *like* a game machine. Not in the way the C-64 and Atari 8-bit boxes do. Does that make sense?

 

And having said that, I've *still* had many many great gaming moments on the II+ and //e back in the day.

 

Well what things would you like to see developed for the II series?? And by that I mean software! There's plenty of hardware projects floating around, so none of that!

Edited June 24, 2011 by Keatah

[JamesD]

I think a new game was released at Kansasfest last year and I've see a game here or there over the years but that's it.

Apple II people seem to be more into nostalgia (playing the old games) than writing new ones.

 

Maybe they are focusing too much on writing games for their iPhone to write for the II.

[magnusfalkirk]

Yeh folks! I see quite a bit of homebrew hardware projects for the II series. But very little, if any, software other than what is required to support the new hardware. There aren't no hit games or new arcade translations. You know, stuff like that. Nothing like the 2600 and 8-bit machines anyways. Let alone the C-64.. Tons of recent stuff for those machines!

 

Is it because the II series doesn't really have a custom graphics/sound chip? Or because it doesn't have a lot of undiscovered and undocumented features hiding in those (lack of) custom chips? Or perhaps everything has been done already? Maybe it's the lack of colors compared to other 8-bit machines? Or the unorthodox bit-map layout? Maybe it's something I'm not mentioning?

 

Maybe it's even the style and type/personality of the folks remaining here nowadays that were around in the Apple II days. I mean to say that the types of folks that got into the II series were more serious and had a penchant for doing hardware and the type of logic and thinking that goes with interfacing and building circuits. As opposed to the software-type. The Apple II probably had the most hardware devs of any 8-bit machine. Whereas the C-64 and Atari (and Apple II) platforms probably had a similar number of software guys. With the C-64 and Atari platforms having a little more, I think.

 

But there *is* an extensive and existing gaming library already. Though despite the number of games on II series (and *my* quite extensive library of games), it somehow doesn't feel *like* a game machine. Not in the way the C-64 and Atari 8-bit boxes do. Does that make sense?

 

And having said that, I've *still* had many many great gaming moments on the II+ and //e back in the day.

 

Well what things would you like to see developed for the II series?? And by that I mean software! There's plenty of hardware projects floating around, so none of that!

 

Here's at least one new game I know of for the Apple II platform: http://www.leadlightgame.com/ it's a text adventure/horror game. I play around with the idea of writing something for the II, but I need to take the time to learn how to program the II on the first place. Who knows maybe I'll actually do something some day.

 

Dean

 

Edit: Here is another new game for the Apple II: http://a2central.com/1312/dave-schmenks-escape-from-the-homebrew-computer-club/

 

Go to this page: http://schmenk.is-a-geek.com/Apple.html and scroll down if you'd like to read more about Escape from the Homebrew Computer Club. Below it is his description of another program he created for the Apple II, a Java Virtual Machine, which you can find here: http://vm02.sourceforge.net/

Edited June 25, 2011 by magnusfalkirk

[Keatah]

As strange as it sounds, I think the architecture of the Disk ][ sub-system attracted a certain "hardware-type" to the platform. And none of these guys were interested in writing games much. And the II+ and //e were incredibly simple systems to work with. Far simpler than the 400/800 and C64..

[Blackbag]

As strange as it sounds, I think the architecture of the Disk ][ sub-system attracted a certain "hardware-type" to the platform. And none of these guys were interested in writing games much. And the II+ and //e were incredibly simple systems to work with. Far simpler than the 400/800 and C64..

 

I think that's partially correct-- most of the active Apple II members are more hardware hacker types. The hardware was open, well known and well published. There are a couple of software guys still active, but they are more IIgs focused. Personally, outside of helping to run asimov years ago and doing quite a bit of cracking at the same time, I haven't really done much since then.

 

I've kicked around the idea of writing a game on the Apple II, but the first thing I found tedious was developing on the platform (merlin). So, I decided to use emulators, which made things a bit more managable (load/compile times much better, but file sharing/transferring still a hassle). I've tried using a cross assembler, so I can work with native IDEs, and that was a bit better (still a bit kludgy to get the binary over to the apple II to test).

 

Once I had that down to a decent working solution, I then ran into something that became a real show stopper-- creating graphics for the Apple II. The most usable solution was on real hardware with a real mouse and something like 8/16 paint or Blazing Paddles. Unfortunately, I had already put away my IIc and transitioned to a virtualized environment so I wasn't excited about pulling that back out again and sacrificing the desk space. Running those graphics apps in an emulator didn't work out well. Mouse support is not as precise, and I tend to get frustrated with it.

 

So, my next thought was to write a native graphics app that emulated the quirky IIe video hardware, then converted the bitmap over to a binary that you could use on the Apple II. A further advantage would be that you could also do the RLE picture packing in the native app (faster), as well as more easily put together graphics in a "sprite" format to use. I think I got disinterested with the thought of having to write the tool, to in turn write the game. I was able to get simple point and click bitmap drawing done with a rudimentary emulation of the hardware, but when I realized that I would need to do things like select areas, lines, fills, etc I just didn't have the focus to do it.

 

So, maybe if someone wrote the graphics tools, and with a more streamlined interface to develop under emulation, I think you would probably see more Apple II homebrew come out.

[The Usotsuki]

Well, there's CiderPress for managing DSK files, which isn't too bad, and runs nice on WINE.

 

I for one am more a software person and my //e holds a lot of nostalgia for me. (ETA: slightly more than the IBM XT that is my avatar.)

Edited July 18, 2011 by The Usotsuki

[Blackbag]

Well, there's CiderPress for managing DSK files, which isn't too bad, and runs nice on WINE.

 

I for one am more a software person and my //e holds a lot of nostalgia for me. (ETA: slightly more than the IBM XT that is my avatar.)

 

Ciderpress is excellent, and it's the only way to go for working on a CF drive. I use a Mac, and wish there was a native port (I am assuming you spend time in a Linux environment, so we are in similar boats).

 

That said, this topic has my mind spinning back into the direction of Apple II development. The more I think of it, the more strongly I feel like the lack of an easy path to development keeps a lot of people from working on it. Ultimately, what would be great would be:

 

1) Easily packaged 65c02 cross assembler.

Tons of options out there, but many of them require self compilation, and many of them are not updated. Each package has it's own format for source files. I think I downloaded 6 or 7 cross assemblers. Out of those 2 seemed to be somewhat current (updated within 2 years), and of those 2 only one compiled cleanly the first time round.

 

Would be great if it supported native Merlin source code files, or had a conversion tool.

 

2) An emulator build that allowed mounting a folder/directory as a prodos drive and allowed updating of the files from the PC side.

Yeah, file locking and all that is needed to keep the normal user from running into problems, but having a special developer build/option would be great. No more transferring files via Ciderpress or some other util, then rebooting.

In the Mac world, the Virtual II emulator has this ability, but once the Folder is mounted, it is locked from the Mac OSX side, so you can't update it. You still need to unmount it, and then reboot to mount it.

 

3) An Apple II graphics util in your native OS. Support for RLE picture packing (and the associated 6502 unpacking code, of course), and the ability to create tiles and sprite sets. Perhaps even make it Take 1 compatible, so you can leverage the existing Take-1 utils and code already written.

 

4) More optional-- An IDE that has references for 6502/65c02 opcodes, Apple II hardware (hooks, entry points/sub routines, DOS/ProDos, zero page ref, memory maps, bank switching tips, etc), and AppleSoft BASIC reference.

 

 

Out of curiousity, what is development like in the C64 or Atari worlds? Is it an easier/more documented barrier to entry? Do these tools/features exist?

 

Rich

[desiv]

I agree..

It's just not as appealing as some of the other systems to develop software for...

You want a challenge, 2600 or O2 or 7800, etc...

Want to push the hardware and impress.. C64 or Atari 8-bit...

 

desiv

[JamesD]

It's easy to add opcodes for any cpu to many editors.

I use Notepad++ and have it set up for Z80, 6502, 6803, 6809, etc...

 

 

There are several popular assemblers on the Apple II.

I believe Lisa was one of the better ones.

At the very least there is some sample code with it.

You'll need Cyderpress to open the files from Windows.

[The Usotsuki]

For a good 6502 asm you can use ca65 from cc65.org?

[LoTonah]

Personally, I have about four games in the pipeline for the //e... but they aren't really games that people would go "wow" over. The one that is likely to be done first is "Learning Math with Lexi", a Grade 5 and under math quiz game. It does feature double lo-res graphics and sound, but so far it's all been in Applesoft so it is slooow. Looking at ways of speeding it up.

 

I'm also working on "Touch Me", the Atari Simon clone (again in double lo-res), and Defend, a conversion of the TRS-80 MC-10 game, plus another I don't have a name for yet.

 

I'm right at the edge of what BASIC can do for me, so I'm dabbling more and more into Assembler. I'm a bit thick in the head and short on time, so I doubt I'll ever get really good at it. Doesn't stop me from trying, though!

 

My current workflow (for BASIC): Write it in TextWrangler (I'm on a Mac), and copy/paste it into Virtual ][. That doesn't work for Merlin though, so for that I have to do it solely in Virtual ][. I have real Apples just twenty or so feet away, but they're on shelves, not desks, so doing any real work on them is uncomfortable.

[Blackbag]

Personally, I have about four games in the pipeline for the //e... but they aren't really games that people would go "wow" over. The one that is likely to be done first is "Learning Math with Lexi", a Grade 5 and under math quiz game. It does feature double lo-res graphics and sound, but so far it's all been in Applesoft so it is slooow. Looking at ways of speeding it up.

 

I'm also working on "Touch Me", the Atari Simon clone (again in double lo-res), and Defend, a conversion of the TRS-80 MC-10 game, plus another I don't have a name for yet.

 

I'm right at the edge of what BASIC can do for me, so I'm dabbling more and more into Assembler. I'm a bit thick in the head and short on time, so I doubt I'll ever get really good at it. Doesn't stop me from trying, though!

 

My current workflow (for BASIC): Write it in TextWrangler (I'm on a Mac), and copy/paste it into Virtual ][. That doesn't work for Merlin though, so for that I have to do it solely in Virtual ][. I have real Apples just twenty or so feet away, but they're on shelves, not desks, so doing any real work on them is uncomfortable.

 

To speed up BASIC, look at using Beagle compiler from Beagle Bros Software. It does an excellent job with BASIC speedup. There are several others out there, but Beagle is the one that jumps to mind.

Another thing to consider, is using ZBasic. ZBasic is an alternative to Applesoft. It runs in it's own environment (it doesn't use any of the built in BASIC), has a very nice full screen editor, and adds additional functionality to make BASIC better. It also has a built in help system/reference, and does a very good job at running fast (it does it's own compilation as well). I highly recommend it. It also runs under ProDOS, so you can create a 32MB ProDOS hard drive image (I use Virtual II as well) and have ZBasic along with a bunch of other utilities on the image in one place. I'd be happy to send you my ready to run images to get you started quickly. Just drop me a PM.

 

Rich

[Keatah]

I used to use Einstein Compiler due to the ease and speed at which it would produce run-time binaries.

[HuckleCat]

I'd like to see an ex-Origin Systems employee dig up the Apple 2 versions of Ultima 6 and the sequel to 2400 AD.

 

I asked about Ultima 6 before, "back in the day" I would call Origin and EA all the time asking about sequels to Wasteland and Ultima 5. Early adverts for Ultima 6 mentioned an Apple 2 release, then this stopped. I was told by an Origin employee that they did in fact make U6 for the Apple 2, but due to the decline in popularity for the system, and the fact that it came on both sides of 9 disks, Origin decided against releasing it.

 

And recently John Romero, who used to work there, confirmed that a sequel to 2400 AD was "basically done" and axed at the last minute.

[LoTonah]

Personally, I have about four games in the pipeline for the //e... but they aren't really games that people would go "wow" over. The one that is likely to be done first is "Learning Math with Lexi", a Grade 5 and under math quiz game. It does feature double lo-res graphics and sound, but so far it's all been in Applesoft so it is slooow. Looking at ways of speeding it up.

 

I'm also working on "Touch Me", the Atari Simon clone (again in double lo-res), and Defend, a conversion of the TRS-80 MC-10 game, plus another I don't have a name for yet.

 

I'm right at the edge of what BASIC can do for me, so I'm dabbling more and more into Assembler. I'm a bit thick in the head and short on time, so I doubt I'll ever get really good at it. Doesn't stop me from trying, though!

 

My current workflow (for BASIC): Write it in TextWrangler (I'm on a Mac), and copy/paste it into Virtual ][. That doesn't work for Merlin though, so for that I have to do it solely in Virtual ][. I have real Apples just twenty or so feet away, but they're on shelves, not desks, so doing any real work on them is uncomfortable.

 

To speed up BASIC, look at using Beagle compiler from Beagle Bros Software. It does an excellent job with BASIC speedup. There are several others out there, but Beagle is the one that jumps to mind.

Another thing to consider, is using ZBasic. ZBasic is an alternative to Applesoft. It runs in it's own environment (it doesn't use any of the built in BASIC), has a very nice full screen editor, and adds additional functionality to make BASIC better. It also has a built in help system/reference, and does a very good job at running fast (it does it's own compilation as well). I highly recommend it. It also runs under ProDOS, so you can create a 32MB ProDOS hard drive image (I use Virtual II as well) and have ZBasic along with a bunch of other utilities on the image in one place. I'd be happy to send you my ready to run images to get you started quickly. Just drop me a PM.

 

Rich

 

Hmm... oddly enough I have disk images of ZBASIC (ProDOS version), so I'm playing around with it. I wish I had the DOS 3.3 version, though--I'm wondering if any of my inline assembly code is going to work on ProDOS or not. Seems to me I read somewhere that the memory is mapped out a bit different under the two OS's.

 

UPDATE: So far, not much of my code works because of differences in the graphics, and I'm getting out of memory errors when cut/pasting some of my current projects into the editor. I guess I should RTFM.

[Blackbag]

Personally, I have about four games in the pipeline for the //e... but they aren't really games that people would go "wow" over. The one that is likely to be done first is "Learning Math with Lexi", a Grade 5 and under math quiz game. It does feature double lo-res graphics and sound, but so far it's all been in Applesoft so it is slooow. Looking at ways of speeding it up.

 

I'm also working on "Touch Me", the Atari Simon clone (again in double lo-res), and Defend, a conversion of the TRS-80 MC-10 game, plus another I don't have a name for yet.

 

I'm right at the edge of what BASIC can do for me, so I'm dabbling more and more into Assembler. I'm a bit thick in the head and short on time, so I doubt I'll ever get really good at it. Doesn't stop me from trying, though!

 

My current workflow (for BASIC): Write it in TextWrangler (I'm on a Mac), and copy/paste it into Virtual ][. That doesn't work for Merlin though, so for that I have to do it solely in Virtual ][. I have real Apples just twenty or so feet away, but they're on shelves, not desks, so doing any real work on them is uncomfortable.

 

To speed up BASIC, look at using Beagle compiler from Beagle Bros Software. It does an excellent job with BASIC speedup. There are several others out there, but Beagle is the one that jumps to mind.

Another thing to consider, is using ZBasic. ZBasic is an alternative to Applesoft. It runs in it's own environment (it doesn't use any of the built in BASIC), has a very nice full screen editor, and adds additional functionality to make BASIC better. It also has a built in help system/reference, and does a very good job at running fast (it does it's own compilation as well). I highly recommend it. It also runs under ProDOS, so you can create a 32MB ProDOS hard drive image (I use Virtual II as well) and have ZBasic along with a bunch of other utilities on the image in one place. I'd be happy to send you my ready to run images to get you started quickly. Just drop me a PM.

 

Rich

 

Hmm... oddly enough I have disk images of ZBASIC (ProDOS version), so I'm playing around with it. I wish I had the DOS 3.3 version, though--I'm wondering if any of my inline assembly code is going to work on ProDOS or not. Seems to me I read somewhere that the memory is mapped out a bit different under the two OS's.

 

UPDATE: So far, not much of my code works because of differences in the graphics, and I'm getting out of memory errors when cut/pasting some of my current projects into the editor. I guess I should RTFM.

 

Yes, it will require a rewrite of the graphics code (ZBasic's will be faster, though), but most of the program logic should be the same. The docs are good at pointing out the differences between Applesoft basic and ZBasic to help porting. I do have ZBasic DOS 3.3 somewhere, I can try to dig it up if you are still looking. Also, I've used the inline assembly for small bits of code, and it works fairly well. There are other techniques to load your binary into memory and just call them directly from basic.

 

Rich

[desiv]

I'd like to see an ex-Origin Systems employee dig up the Apple 2 versions of Ultima 6 and the sequel to 2400 AD.

 

That would be epic...

 

desiv

[tyranthraxus]

I'd like to see an ex-Origin Systems employee dig up the Apple 2 versions of Ultima 6 and the sequel to 2400 AD.

 

An Apple II GS version of U6 would be great to see and more GS ports in general would be nice too. I think the GS is one of those fascinating dead ends akin to the Commodore 128, the heart was there but they just couldn't get the software.

 

I'd also love for someone to leak the code and docs for "Meantime" the game being developed with the Wasteland engine that was abandoned when it was determined that the Apple II market had eroded too badly to be worth the effort.

[LoTonah]

Personally, I have about four games in the pipeline for the //e... but they aren't really games that people would go "wow" over. The one that is likely to be done first is "Learning Math with Lexi", a Grade 5 and under math quiz game. It does feature double lo-res graphics and sound, but so far it's all been in Applesoft so it is slooow. Looking at ways of speeding it up.

 

I'm also working on "Touch Me", the Atari Simon clone (again in double lo-res), and Defend, a conversion of the TRS-80 MC-10 game, plus another I don't have a name for yet.

 

I'm right at the edge of what BASIC can do for me, so I'm dabbling more and more into Assembler. I'm a bit thick in the head and short on time, so I doubt I'll ever get really good at it. Doesn't stop me from trying, though!

 

My current workflow (for BASIC): Write it in TextWrangler (I'm on a Mac), and copy/paste it into Virtual ][. That doesn't work for Merlin though, so for that I have to do it solely in Virtual ][. I have real Apples just twenty or so feet away, but they're on shelves, not desks, so doing any real work on them is uncomfortable.

 

To speed up BASIC, look at using Beagle compiler from Beagle Bros Software. It does an excellent job with BASIC speedup. There are several others out there, but Beagle is the one that jumps to mind.

Another thing to consider, is using ZBasic. ZBasic is an alternative to Applesoft. It runs in it's own environment (it doesn't use any of the built in BASIC), has a very nice full screen editor, and adds additional functionality to make BASIC better. It also has a built in help system/reference, and does a very good job at running fast (it does it's own compilation as well). I highly recommend it. It also runs under ProDOS, so you can create a 32MB ProDOS hard drive image (I use Virtual II as well) and have ZBasic along with a bunch of other utilities on the image in one place. I'd be happy to send you my ready to run images to get you started quickly. Just drop me a PM.

 

Rich

 

Hmm... oddly enough I have disk images of ZBASIC (ProDOS version), so I'm playing around with it. I wish I had the DOS 3.3 version, though--I'm wondering if any of my inline assembly code is going to work on ProDOS or not. Seems to me I read somewhere that the memory is mapped out a bit different under the two OS's.

 

UPDATE: So far, not much of my code works because of differences in the graphics, and I'm getting out of memory errors when cut/pasting some of my current projects into the editor. I guess I should RTFM.

 

Yes, it will require a rewrite of the graphics code (ZBasic's will be faster, though), but most of the program logic should be the same. The docs are good at pointing out the differences between Applesoft basic and ZBasic to help porting. I do have ZBasic DOS 3.3 somewhere, I can try to dig it up if you are still looking. Also, I've used the inline assembly for small bits of code, and it works fairly well. There are other techniques to load your binary into memory and just call them directly from basic.

 

Rich

 

Yes, if you could find them, that would be awesome. My buddy was bugging me that I'm spending too much time doing things over and over as I learn new techniques (and never finish a program as a result). I think he just wants to get going on the GBA game that we've been talking about for the past few months

[johnnystarr]

Clearly going to be a "Necro Post" here, but I am currently working on an Apple // homebrew game. Personally, I find Merlin to be very useful. Notepad++ is the ideal text editor to me, so having to use Merlin took some practice. As far as graphics, I agree that there needs to be an easier solution. Besides the Atari 2600, this is a hurdle for most systems. I spent more time in NES development trying to create my own sprite / background editor. This is what brought me to the 2600. All sprites are just 8-bit lines, so typing out each line with either a 1 or 0, you would set the "pixel" to be on or off (foreground or background).

 

Personally, I think that the fanbase and support for homebrew games is always going to be for console systems. This comes down to the fact that EVERYONE owned an Atari or NES, but only select homes had an Apple //.

[Keatah]

What's the game about?