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Comparing the NES and 7800 on a technical level


DracIsBack

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Reality is that - legal wranglings aside, Nintendo generated enough 'heat' from their 1980s dealings that they dropped many of the controversial items. The entire library was no longer exclusive to Nintendo; Developers could release as many games as they wanted on the system. Developers could manufacture their own cartridges at their own pricing. Nintendo settled the price fixing allegations regarding Super Mario Bros 3. Nintendo backed off on a lot of the retail aggressiveness allowing competitors to have equal footing etc.

 

... And the Genesis rose up against the mighty Nintendo ...

 

Even with Nintendo changing some of their business practices, some third party developers wouldn't take the chance of upsetting Nintendo by developing for other systems. That's why the third party support for the Lynx was so abysmal. It took the success of the Sega Genesis to convince a lot of those companies to either jump ship or finally develop for multiple platforms.

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This is the type of opinion that's common on Facebook even in Atari groups by people who allegedly are Atari fans. One guy always slagged on the 7800 any time the NES was cited and of course dissed the 5200 every chance he got.

 

It's like, yeah, the NES had a superior library thanks to Nintendo's illegal monopolistic practices. Had Atari Inc survived and launched the 7800 at Christmas 1984 as originally planned, Nintendo would've never become anything outside of Japan even to this day...

 

 

Could have, would have, should have. History is was it is but I refuse to look at it through rose colored glasses just cause I enjoy playing the Atari 7800. Ther e is always a bigger fish and in this case it was Nintendo over Atari. That's fine, it doesn't take away any enjoyment I personally have playing any of the games on any system. I don't know anything about facebook as I'm not a member. Oh, and the 5200 is a great system but the stock controller is a piece of shit on it's best day.

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Could have, would have, should have. History is was it is but I refuse to look at it through rose colored glasses just cause I enjoy playing the Atari 7800. Ther e is always a bigger fish and in this case it was Nintendo over Atari. That's fine, it doesn't take away any enjoyment I personally have playing any of the games on any system. I don't know anything about facebook as I'm not a member. Oh, and the 5200 is a great system but the stock controller is a piece of shit on it's best day.

 

Is there any good reason for someone who isn't already nostalgic for the Atari 5200 to get one? The library mostly consists of ports of games you can play on other systems with less hassle. And the Atari computers and XEGS have the same basic hardware.

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Even with Nintendo changing some of their business practices, some third party developers wouldn't take the chance of upsetting Nintendo by developing for other systems. That's why the third party support for the Lynx was so abysmal. It took the success of the Sega Genesis to convince a lot of those companies to either jump ship or finally develop for multiple platforms.

 

Yeah - and Atari was a weaker player. I remember Sega and NEC had better luck initially in this respect. There was a press release Atari put out there they announced six third party lynx developers and I remember thinking "Geez ... that's it?"

 

Super Squeek was one of them

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Is there any good reason for someone who isn't already nostalgic for the Atari 5200 to get one? The library mostly consists of ports of games you can play on other systems with less hassle. And the Atari computers and XEGS have the same basic hardware.

I have been wondering this myself.

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Could have, would have, should have. History is was it is but I refuse to look at it through rose colored glasses just cause I enjoy playing the Atari 7800. Ther e is always a bigger fish and in this case it was Nintendo over Atari. That's fine, it doesn't take away any enjoyment I personally have playing any of the games on any system. I don't know anything about facebook as I'm not a member. Oh, and the 5200 is a great system but the stock controller is a piece of shit on it's best day.

 

 

...and yet, the 5200's Trak-Ball Controller is one of the best accessory controllers of all tyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyme...

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I have been wondering this myself.

 

Because the 5200 is a console. The XEGS is a hybrid. And the 5200 has 2-fire buttons plus a Pause/Select/Reset on the controller, not to mention the numeric keypad. It's better at couch gaming than any Atari 8-bit computer or the XEGS. And the 5200's CX53 Trak-Ball Controller is better than the CX22 or the CX80 Trak-Balls which the Atari 8-bits use. Most of the Atari 8-bit games that were ported to the 5200 were improved for the 5200. That's why.

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Is there any good reason for someone who isn't already nostalgic for the Atari 5200 to get one? The library mostly consists of ports of games you can play on other systems with less hassle. And the Atari computers and XEGS have the same basic hardware.

 

If you have an Atari 800 or the like the quick answer would be no, you don't really need to get yourself a 5200 as you already have the experience covered.

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Most of the Atari 8-bit games that were ported to the 5200 were improved for the 5200. That's why.

 

A lot of them have been ported back on the 8-bit line in the meantime...

But these days you don't need to get any system to play games, it's more a matter of style and personal desires than anything else.

 

While I do have a lot of Atari systems, I decided to skip the 5200 as it was never sold in PAL land, is therefore very hard to collect here without relying on EBay buys from the US, and I can play most of the games on my 8-bits if I want to.

 

If you like console hardware, apart from the joysticks it apparently is a nice addition to any collection as it's massive and looks like the future looked in the late 80s.

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A lot of them have been ported back on the 8-bit line in the meantime...

But these days you don't need to get any system to play games, it's more a matter of style and personal desires than anything else.

 

While I do have a lot of Atari systems, I decided to skip the 5200 as it was never sold in PAL land, is therefore very hard to collect here without relying on EBay buys from the US, and I can play most of the games on my 8-bits if I want to.

 

If you like console hardware, apart from the joysticks it apparently is a nice addition to any collection as it's massive and looks like the future looked in the late 80s.

 

 

The 5200 debuted in 1982 and it still looks futuristic. It's the best looking Atari console case, period. Same with the cartridges themselves. Switching back to the 2600 cartridge case design for 7800 games was not only cost-cutting but a step backwards in design. The 5200's cartridge slot is ZIF; the 7800's definitely isn't. But again, the 5200 was supposed to be high-end and the 7800's purpose - besides offering next-gen graphics and backwards-compatibility to the 2600 - was cost-cutting.

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The 5200 debuted in 1982 and it still looks futuristic. It's the best looking Atari console case, period. Same with the cartridges themselves. Switching back to the 2600 cartridge case design for 7800 games was not only cost-cutting but a step backwards in design. The 5200's cartridge slot is ZIF; the 7800's definitely isn't. But again, the 5200 was supposed to be high-end and the 7800's purpose - besides offering next-gen graphics and backwards-compatibility to the 2600 - was cost-cutting.

 

It looks futuristic in the same way that an enormous, hulking computer with flashing lights looks futuristic in an old science fiction movie.

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The 5200 debuted in 1982 and it still looks futuristic. It's the best looking Atari console case, period. Same with the cartridges themselves. Switching back to the 2600 cartridge case design for 7800 games was not only cost-cutting but a step backwards in design

 

Now that is a very subjective opinion ...

Edited by DracIsBack
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The only 7800 game I can think of off the top of my head that had the right idea of where to go was Midnight Mutants.

 

Once Atari moved away from the distraction known as the XE Game System, they started producing more NES-like games. But by then (1989 ish), the Genesis and Turbografx 16 were out and taking up more and more of Atari's shelf space. Even today, many people don't even know about later titles.

 

Other examples of games from this era - Commando, Ikari Warriors, Dark Chambers, Scrapyard Dog, Basketbrawl, Alien Brigade, and Fatal Run. Larger, more immersive, more NES like in style.

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I really don't know the technical terms, but look at the graphics of some games that were released both on the 7800 and NES, the 7800 looks far superior. Ditto on movement. While in some games the 7800 looks worse, for the most part it could've been a real rival. In any case, both systems have their good and bad points.

 

*sigh* What an amazing, borderline non-response I spouted almost 16 years ago!

 

The 7800 can look better - in some games. Commando on the 7800 is superior over the NES port not only graphically but in every facet, for example. I have to modify my original statement somewhat though, because unfortunately Commando was an exception. For the most part, I have to admit the NES ports of most games look better, or are at least a draw. And yes, I know about the extra chips and whatnot that NES carts often employed, but that doesn't change the bottom line; kids wouldn't have cared if a cart used an extra mapper or not, all they'd know is that a friend's game looked better than theirs.

 

That's not to say that the 7800 couldn't have been a contender; those later, NES-like games such as Midnight Mutants, Scrapyard Dog, etc. really show what the console could do. (Not to mention our wonderful homebrewers nowadays, of course!) If only Atari had figured that out before the system was in its twilight years and the 16-bit era had already dawned!

 

Now that I think about it, I'm not modifying my original statement so much as I'm fleshing it out the way I should have a thousand years ago. Whatever.

 

 

 

Could have, would have, should have. History is was it is but I refuse to look at it through rose colored glasses just cause I enjoy playing the Atari 7800. Ther e is always a bigger fish and in this case it was Nintendo over Atari. That's fine, it doesn't take away any enjoyment I personally have playing any of the games on any system. I don't know anything about facebook as I'm not a member. Oh, and the 5200 is a great system but the stock controller is a piece of shit on it's best day.

 

Except for the fact I'm on FB, these are my thoughts exactly. I love both the NES and the 7800, and indeed, I'd place both in my top five favorite consoles without hesitation, but it all goes back to that bottom line, that final outcome. We can talk hypotheticals and theoreticals all day, it's fun and I'm about to do just that, but it doesn't change how things actually played out and what kids actually saw on their toy store shelves and TV screens. Maybe if Atari Inc. had stuck around and wide released it in 1984 instead of Atari Corp. in 1986, things would have turned out differently, but, well, it is what it is.

 

Yes, Nintendo can be blamed for some of this with their business practices, but for the most part I think it's Atari's fault the 7800 wasn't what it could have been, and it comes down to money. Nintendo has that big name license locked up? Okay, well make your own variation, or license a similar game! These kinds of games are selling like hotcakes on the NES? Fine, create your own versions! Kids are demanding bigger and better graphics and sound? Pry open the wallet and spring for some extra memory and POKEY then! Atari rectified this towards the end, but it was too little too late. And it's a continuous mystery to me why they didn't eventually replace the stock US ProLine joysticks with the better European joypads. (Yes, I'm fully aware I'm not saying anything new here.)

 

But then, the Master System did much of this and still failed to topple the Mario juggernaut in the US - and didn't the 7800 actually outsell the SMS here? The unearthed Toki prototype from 1993 implies to me that maybe Atari was going to go for a Sega-type deal where the console did relatively little in the US but had an absolutely astounding library and rate of success abroad, but that's just guesswork on my part.

 

(There's those hypotheticals and theoreticals again!)

 

The Atari 7800: A sleek, capable machine, with a mountain of untapped potential. At least the homebrewers are finally doing right by it.

 

As for the 5200, even though I own an 800 XL and XEGS, I still love it. It's aesthetically pleasing (reminds me of a Cadillac or similar classy, high-end car) and just screams "1982 arcade gaming!" to me. Sure, I can get much of the same gaming experience from the computers, and doing so saves me the time of dealing with those terrible awful controllers, but it's still a console I'm very fond of. Maybe it's a 'whole picture' kind of thing? That and the ColecoVision define that particular era of gaming to me in a way that other consoles can't, that idea of truly having the arcade at home.

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I just wanted to address some of the misinformation in the OP regarding the NES. The NES does have 4k of onboard RAM. 2k were reserved for the cpu, and 2k were reserved for the ppu. The NES was designed with tile scrolling in mind, with 32kb accessible prg and 8kb accessible chr. Later bankswitching carts allowed graphics and program memory to be swapped instantly leading to massively complex games. The ppu could offset tiles vertically or horizontally. This allowed for smooth scrolling in any direction. The 2k of ppu ram held all of the sprite data across two screens. Mirroring was normally set to horizontal or vertical by jumpers on the pcb, to allow for vertically and horizontally scrolling games. Later memory mappers could change the mirroring on the fly to allow for both types of levels. A handful of releases such as Micro Machines completely disabled the onboard ppu ram by optimg for 4-way nametables with additional on cart ppu ram. These games generally are unplayabld or have severe grsphical corruption when played on clone systems.

 

Part of the versatility of the nes allowing bankswitch schemes was having a separate bus for graphics tiles, something no other system did. 7800 would have trouble displaying the sheer variety of sprite tiles the nes could, even if it handled more sprites with less flicker.

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But these days you don't need to get any system to play games, it's more a matter of style and personal desires than anything else.

 

Exactly. Why own any game system? The Wii has a decent 7800 emulator, NES style controllers (that work wirelessly) available for it, and costs like $25 in used game stores now. It also has an NES emulator, Lynx, TG16, etc. My computer I am on right now can emulate almost anything and has a great Xbox 360 controller hooked up to it, and can support a joystick. Why would anyone own any game system?

 

And yet, I have my 7800 hooked up and play it every day and collect complete in box games as though the cardboard box matters. :)

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*sigh* What an amazing, borderline non-response I spouted almost 16 years ago!

 

The 7800 can look better - in some games. Commando on the 7800 is superior over the NES port not only graphically but in every facet, for example. I have to modify my original statement somewhat though, because unfortunately Commando was an exception. For the most part, I have to admit the NES ports of most games look better, or are at least a draw. And yes, I know about the extra chips and whatnot that NES carts often employed, but that doesn't change the bottom line; kids wouldn't have cared if a cart used an extra mapper or not, all they'd know is that a friend's game looked better than theirs.

 

 

7800 Commando looks better because the NES port wasn't programmed well. It reminds me of Micronics games. The graphics are very glitchy.

 

Same with 7800 Ikari Warriors. The 7800 port shines because NES Ikari Warriors is a dumpster fire. Even the Atari 2600 port is arguably an improvement.

Edited by mbd30
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7800 Commando looks better because the NES port wasn't programmed well. It reminds me of Micronics games. The graphics are very glitchy.

 

Same with 7800 Ikari Warriors. The 7800 port shines because NES Ikari Warriors is a dumpster fire. Even the Atari 2600 port is arguably an improvement.

 

Granted, the NES version (which I actually do like) is pretty flickery and buggy, and there was, what, three years between the two ports? But, it's not like the 7800 version succeeds only because of a technicality; it can stand toe-to-toe with similar NES games that were programmed well. It's only real limitation is the actual game itself, which had been succeeded by more advanced examples of the genre in the years between the original coin-op release and the 7800 conversion. (In other words, it's a port that should have come out two, three years before it actually did, and really, it's the kind of high-quality cart Atari should have been pushing all along. Still, better late than never, and besides, it's not like any of that matters now.)

 

As for NES Ikari Warriors, that slow-as-molasses play kills it. I don't own the 7800 cart, but I played it emulated years ago, and IIRC it looked worse but played faster and smoother. I'm not a huge Ikari fan in general though; I much prefer Commando. (The exception is the 2600; I'm fascinated by that Ikari port and would take it over 2600 Commando easily.)

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The 5200 debuted in 1982 and it still looks futuristic. It's the best looking Atari console case, period. Same with the cartridges themselves. Switching back to the 2600 cartridge case design for 7800 games was not only cost-cutting but a step backwards in design. The 5200's cartridge slot is ZIF; the 7800's definitely isn't. But again, the 5200 was supposed to be high-end and the 7800's purpose - besides offering next-gen graphics and backwards-compatibility to the 2600 - was cost-cutting.

 

But it was also a major failure because of the lack of backwards compatibility and the joysticks. Had the 5200 been backwards compatible and better joysticks, it probably would have been every bit a successful as the 2600 was.

 

If the 7800 was released at that same time instead of the 5200, the Japanese may have never even broken into the western market. They never got a computer into the market.

 

With hindsight it's very easy to see the errors and I give a lot of leeway for that (they didn't have save states!). But there is absolutely zero excuse for the 5200 joysticks. Not only were they a terrible design choice for the types of games that were around then, but they were also very poorly made and broke constantly. They had to have play-testers complaining about the joysticks. Very few of the arcade machines had analogue sticks. The only one that even comes to mind is crazy climber.

 

To some extent, I think they should have foreseen the problem with backward compatibility. A-rated games were $35-$40 (minimum wage was about $3/hr at the time, average salary was 12,500 6,25/hr) and asking consumers to just dump that investment was a bad idea. Nintendo was able to pull that off, but I think the proliferation of cheap TVs played at least some role. Video games had largely moved into kid's rooms by then.

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Granted, the NES version (which I actually do like) is pretty flickery and buggy, and there was, what, three years between the two ports? But, it's not like the 7800 version succeeds only because of a technicality; it can stand toe-to-toe with similar NES games that were programmed well. It's only real limitation is the actual game itself, which had been succeeded by more advanced examples of the genre in the years between the original coin-op release and the 7800 conversion. (In other words, it's a port that should have come out two, three years before it actually did, and really, it's the kind of high-quality cart Atari should have been pushing all along. Still, better late than never, and besides, it's not like any of that matters now.)

 

As for NES Ikari Warriors, that slow-as-molasses play kills it. I don't own the 7800 cart, but I played it emulated years ago, and IIRC it looked worse but played faster and smoother. I'm not a huge Ikari fan in general though; I much prefer Commando. (The exception is the 2600; I'm fascinated by that Ikari port and would take it over 2600 Commando easily.)

I really LOVED Ikari Warriors in the arcade, but the joystick makes the game. None of the home versions are any good because you don't have that rotating joystick.

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As for NES Ikari Warriors, that slow-as-molasses play kills it.

 

I used to wonder why Ikari Warriors wasn't as good as Jackal and Heavy Barrel.

 

It's because it was ported by Micronics. :) Although their NES port of Twin Cobra is pretty good.

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