Star Castle 2600 2011 at Video Game Summit

[BrianC]

I saw the video and it looks nice, but I get weary when anyone says they improved the gameplay on a game they didn't originally make, especially for a classic game. I'm no expert on Star Castle, but I have been disappointed with some remakes that tried to improve things and made things worse instead. This is probably not the case here and it looks like an impressive port, though.

 

I understand this is your project, but it's not often when someone in the professional gaming industry makes a game for an older system. Ed Fries made Halo 2600, it was shown to bungie, sold at CGE 2010, and still got a rom release. Selling your game at a high price and not letting any company make another cart, limits who can see and try the game. The high bidder doesn't make the game more of less legal. The extremely high price for a brand new game that is not a prototype or unreleased game will make sure most won't be albe to play the game for a long time. Not to mention that if someone does buy and decides not to release the rom to the public, but still dumps it, may make piracy more likely.

 

Also, I don't understand some of your comments about 2600 homebrews. 2600 has a huge homebrew community and many of the homebrews, including some not based on other games like Oystron and Marble Craze, are as good or better than many official 2600 games.

Edited July 21, 2011 by BrianC

[2600 Forever]

I understand this is your project, but it's not often when someone in the professional gaming industry makes a game for an older system. Ed Fries made Halo 2600, it was shown to bungie, sold at CGE 2010, and still got a rom release. Selling the game at a high price and not letting any company make another cart, limits who can see and try the game. The high bidder doesn't make the game more of less legal. The extremely high price for a brand new game that is not a prototype or unreleased game will make sure most won't be albe to play the game for a long time. Not to mention that if someone does buy and decides not to release the rom to the public, but still dumps it, may make piracy more likely.

 

Who cares? Nobody is going to support these shenanigans at all, not even that Wonder dude, it's a simple game of "Look at my shiny ball, you can't play with it!".

 

Reminds me a bit of those Jaguar weirdos, like Gorf.

[solidcorp]

I saw the video and it looks nice, but I get weary when anyone says they improved the gameplay on a game they didn't originally make, especially for a classic game. I'm no expert on Star Castle, but I have been disappointed with some remakes that tried to improve things and made things worse instead. This is probably not the case here and it looks like an impressive port, though.

 

I understand this is your project, but it's not often when someone in the professional gaming industry makes a game for an older system. Ed Fries made Halo 2600, it was shown to bungie, sold at CGE 2010, and still got a rom release. Selling the game at a high price and not letting any company make another cart, limits who can see and try the game. The high bidder doesn't make the game more of less legal. The extremely high price for a brand new game that is not a prototype or unreleased game will make sure most won't be albe to play the game for a long time. Not to mention that if someone does buy and decides not to release the rom to the public, but still dumps it, may make piracy more likely.

 

Thanks, the version exhibited last year did not have difficulty like the coin op, it started too hard but never got harder. Now as the levels progress, the cannon in the center increases it's rotation speed, the three sparks turn and move faster to track you. As far as controls are concerned, there was an overflow branch bug in my thrust code that caused the trajectory to straighten out unnaturally at max speed which has been fixed. All of these improvements made the game more like the original coin op. I did take the liberty of adding LEDs to the cartridge and flashed them in different ways for different types of explosive events, but that doesn't interfere with gameplay and its pretty cool.

 

I couldn't agree with you more. The original works are popular because of what they are, they don't need to be reinterpreted. I am a purist when it comes to coin op ports, hopefully you can see that in my other work:

• RoadBlasters Lynx
  
• Toki Lynx
  
• S.T.U.N. Runner Lynx
  
• BattleZone/Super Breakout Gameboy
  

 

I really fought design changes made to Arctic Thunder by the original designers at Midway. They were trying to make the home version less of a "rental" by adding grappling hooks and smoke screens to a finished balanced game and in my opinion they disturbed the balance.

 

I would caution against purchasing any game for $32,768 then preventing the game from being released only to share it...

1. It's illogical and foolish

2. At that point the value of the property has been established, raising the stakes considerably for those sharing the title.

3. It's not like I won't know who bought it which makes picking a defendant in a copyright infringement lawsuit pretty easy. Whether I win or not, lawsuits are ugly and expensive.

 

I'm not saying I would or wouldn't sue over something like this, I'm just saying it's risky and silly.

[solidcorp]

I understand this is your project, but it's not often when someone in the professional gaming industry makes a game for an older system. Ed Fries made Halo 2600, it was shown to bungie, sold at CGE 2010, and still got a rom release. Selling the game at a high price and not letting any company make another cart, limits who can see and try the game. The high bidder doesn't make the game more of less legal. The extremely high price for a brand new game that is not a prototype or unreleased game will make sure most won't be albe to play the game for a long time. Not to mention that if someone does buy and decides not to release the rom to the public, but still dumps it, may make piracy more likely.

 

Who cares? Nobody is going to support these shenanigans at all, not even that Wonder dude, it's a simple game of "Look at my shiny ball, you can't play with it!".

 

Reminds me a bit of those Jaguar weirdos, like Gorf.

 

S1500 and Cebus brought up Jaguar Gorf last year.

That must have really struck quite a nerve.

[BrianC]

Thanks, the version exhibited last year did not have difficulty like the coin op, it started too hard but never got harder. Now as the levels progress, the cannon in the center increases it's rotation speed, the three sparks turn and move faster to track you. As far as controls are concerned, there was an overflow branch bug in my thrust code that caused the trajectory to straighten out unnaturally at max speed which has been fixed. All of these improvements made the game more like the original coin op. I did take the liberty of adding LEDs to the cartridge and flashed them in different ways for different types of explosive events, but that doesn't interfere with gameplay and its pretty cool.

 

Sounds awesome. Sorry I misread.

 

I couldn't agree with you more. The original works are popular because of what they are, they don't need to be reinterpreted. I am a purist when it comes to coin op ports, hopefully you can see that in my other work:

• RoadBlasters Lynx
  
• Toki Lynx
  
• S.T.U.N. Runner Lynx
  
• BattleZone/Super Breakout Gameboy
  

 

cool. I heard good things about your work and I plan to pick up a Lynx. Stun Runner is one of the main games I plan to get for it. I had no idea you did Battlezone/Super Breakout. Edit: watched a video of Roadblasters Lynx. Looks like a sweet port, runs much better than the Atari Collection 2 on PSX, and has the voice the Genesis port is missing.

 

I would caution against purchasing any game for $32,768 then preventing the game from being released only to share it...

1. It's illogical and foolish

2. At that point the value of the property has been established, raising the stakes considerably for those sharing the title.

3. It's not like I won't know who bought it which makes picking a defendant in a copyright infringement lawsuit pretty easy. Whether I win or not, lawsuits are ugly and expensive.

 

I'm not saying I would or wouldn't sue over something like this, I'm just saying it's risky and silly.

 

I didn't mean sharing by dumping the rom, I meant dumping for private use. Most of these aren't widely available on the net, but it does make piracy possible.

Edited July 21, 2011 by BrianC

[Keatah]

SC, the way I see it is if you produced and sold it for $30.00, you'd need to make a little over 1000 sales to get $32k. Subtract out the mfg & distro costs and now you need to make ~4100 sales, more or less to get your $4.00 per byte. More or less. This is an estimate. Despite the 5 figure price, for the difficulty with working with the VCS, that isn't an unreasonable target.

 

However, I'm not sure if the 2600 market will bear that many sales**. Not because it is or isn't a good game, that's besides the point. But I believe it is the platform that's causing the issue. Not a lot of folks these days are even aware of what a VCS is. And as soon as I physically show them my cartridge collection, it's like "WHAT??" is that? Everything is iPhone/smartphone/iPad/tablet/this-week's-hottest-phone. With some education and historical background presented in a snappy way, they get interested in it. So marketing will be a big BIG issue you need to work with.

 

Little kids don't care about the history, they just love the flashing on-screen images. Teenagers, they have their own generation of games now. DS, PS3, XBOX, iPhone. You'll need to market to those platforms. Adults, if they were into the scene, then maybe, if the price is right.

 

If market conditions aren't met, it all falls by the wayside.

 

As soon as other platforms are bought into the picture, especially tablets/smartphones and an online store like like iTunes. Well then, at pennies per game, you'd get your asking price easily. A key thing is getting it to be part of a collection of games or something like that. OR having a series of games with this being one-of-many. People like to collect things. Beer cans, classic cars, concert ticket stubs, whatever.

 

Yes, you'll sell carts to folks that appreciate that specific game and have a love of the arcade version as well as the VCS in general. It will be a must-have item. Those are your given sales. Do you think there are 4,000 customers waiting?

 

 

 

**Are there any sales performance numbers of previously sold homebrew games? Particularly 2600 action titles?

Edited July 21, 2011 by Keatah

[Keatah]

One good thing, is that, to me, classic gaming is far superior to many of the newer games released. I was totally abhorred by the recent Star Raiders remake. There isn't anything quite like the original 8-bit version by Mr. Neubauer. It's even a good two-player game if you get a navigator and science officer operating the keyboard. You cannot do that with the X-BOX release.

 

As children, I couldn't get the co-pilot idea over on my buddies, they all had to be pilot. But today, adult gamers would often prefer that position instead of mindlessly blasting Zylons. We often begin a gaming odyssey with one game, complete it, and transition into another totally different game.

 

It's like docking at an abandoned space station with Orbiter, then playing a custom level in Doom, then going back to the spacecraft. Ahh well, this is now off-topic.

[accousticguitar]

How many game variations are on the cart?

[Schizophretard]

Would it be possible to have a raffle for the cart? It would be hard to get one person to pay $32k but it may be easier to get 1000 people to buy a $32 ticket or 500 people to buy two tickets for the chance to win the cart. You can give incentives to get people to buy tickets. Maybe let them know they are paying for the ROM with the bonus of winning the actual cart? Maybe say you will release it to everyone when all 1000 tickets are sold? Maybe say you will give the rights to make and sell more carts to Atari Age? You could do it at a gaming expo and online at the same time. Could something like that work if finely tuned just right?

[WildBillTX]

This remind me of record collectors who will pay thousands to get their hands on a one-of-a-kind recording of Elvis, The Beatles, etc, yet won't let anyone hear it or allow a record company to reissue it for fear of losing it's value.

 

DS should at least let Atariage give this game a good workout and review it. Lets see if its a kick-*** game thats worth $32,768.00

[Dan Iacovelli]

thanks again for coming and showing star castles.

with all this interest your game I might contact you about being my next guest on my video cast.

(love the video another plug for VGS got to love it)

[eshu]

**Are there any sales performance numbers of previously sold homebrew games? Particularly 2600 action titles?

 

Thomas stated in 2003 that Thrust had sold about 200 copies, I guess it may have sold up to another 100 by now? If you were being hugely ambitious I guess you could shoot for about 500 - I would guess Halo 2600 may be approaching that but it's a bit of a unique situation where I think Halo entuasists are also trying to get it (as well as 2600 collectors) because of Ed's link with the modern franchise....

[Matthew]

Solidcorp has committed a horrible injustice. He has copied another persons game without getting permission, and now

he wants to profit$ from this.

 

I don't care how hard you tried to get the copyright holders permission Solidcorp, the fact remains that you DO NOT have permission to make or distribute this re-production.

 

Until you get the original copyright holders permission, this game cannot be sold in good conscience.

[Crazy Climber]

Thanks a lot man. Roadblasters was a real trip for me, I was brought to tears when I saw it in the Sears Wishbook (Christmas catalog were used before the internet). It was the first game I wrote on my own that was released comercially.

Yeah, I bought hundreds of games for various systems in the late 80's early 90's and only a few really stand out for me as far as memories go, I can remember the day I brought home Roadblasters and Warbirds almost perfectly, it was a great day

 

Back on to Star Castle...

As mentioned above, this is kind of classic "Gorf" He would get the same drama going, make a cool game then give a reason why nobody could have or play it. Something tells me he kind of liked the attention though and did it purposely to stir the pot. While I'm not sure if you are doing that or not overall it has to feel a little cool to have all of us drooling over something you programmed. Just remember even though people express there reaction to this in different ways, ultimately everyone just wants to play it, that has to count for something and hopefully outweighs the negative parts of this hobby like pirating/etc... I hope some day I'll be playing this on a Sat morning in my basement, recapturing a few minutes of my youth before my daughter wakes up and life starts again...but until then, good work and congratulations for your accomplishment See you around man!

[+Andrew Davie]

This is all very interesting and so wrong. I can understand keeping a binary from the unwashed hoarders. I also understand the pride and desire to seek acclaim for one's work. I even understand wanting a reasonable return on your time. Good luck. However, there's a line where pride and sensibility ends and pure tackiness begins and this particular one is way way over it. Put whatever ridiculous price you want on your cartridge, and maybe some idiot will buy it. That's your right, but it doesn't make it right. And despite your "many months of very hard work", or words to that effect, and your laughable asking price of $32K... no matter HOW hard you worked and HOW clever you think you are... that pales to insignificance compared to the work that many other homebrewers have done on their games which have, generally, freely been available as playable binaries. And no matter what you write, and how good you think it is, there are far better programmers out there who can do just as good a job. You may not get this -- the REAL reason that most of us program '2600 is... because we enjoy the challenge. Not for the money, not for the fawning accolades of those begging for copies, nor for the feeling of self importance you may get. We do it because we can and because it's fun. It's a real pity you don't share that community spirit and sense of fun with the rest of us.

[tep392]

Solidcorp has committed a horrible injustice. He has copied another persons game without getting permission, and now

he wants to profit$ from this.

 

I don't care how hard you tried to get the copyright holders permission Solidcorp, the fact remains that you DO NOT have permission to make or distribute this re-production.

 

Until you get the original copyright holders permission, this game cannot be sold in good conscience.

 

This is the crux of the problem for solidcorp. In my opinion, his best bet to get the money he so desires would be to sell to Atari to include in their next Flashback device. But they will not touch it with a ten foot pole until the property owner is identifed and a licensing deal is reached. I don't think he will get a collector to pony up a tenth of his asking price for what is essentially an illegal port.

[solidcorp]

One good thing, is that, to me, classic gaming is far superior to many of the newer games released. I was totally abhorred by the recent Star Raiders remake. There isn't anything quite like the original 8-bit version by Mr. Neubauer. It's even a good two-player game if you get a navigator and science officer operating the keyboard. You cannot do that with the X-BOX release.

 

As children, I couldn't get the co-pilot idea over on my buddies, they all had to be pilot. But today, adult gamers would often prefer that position instead of mindlessly blasting Zylons. We often begin a gaming odyssey with one game, complete it, and transition into another totally different game.

 

It's like docking at an abandoned space station with Orbiter, then playing a custom level in Doom, then going back to the spacecraft. Ahh well, this is now off-topic.

 

Basically I agree, but I can't say either is superior. New games are a totally different animal, they need to be richer and deeper. You can't really sell those old twitch coin-op or vintage cart experiences any more no matter how you try to rewrap them - unless they are unmodified in some retro collection.

 

Star Raiders on the Atari 400 (where I started programming) was and is one of my favorite games. I never liked it on the 2600, though it was a good effort and the ST version was ugly and klunky.

[solidcorp]

SC, the way I see it is if you produced and sold it for $30.00,...

 

Your analysis matches almost exactly what I heard last year.

 

Once again, didn't do it for the money, don't want to have it stolen, but there is a figure I can't refuse.

[solidcorp]

Would it be possible to have a raffle for the cart? It would be hard to get one person to pay $32k but it may be easier to get 1000 people to buy a $32 ticket or 500 people to buy two tickets for the chance to win the cart. You can give incentives to get people to buy tickets. Maybe let them know they are paying for the ROM with the bonus of winning the actual cart? Maybe say you will release it to everyone when all 1000 tickets are sold? Maybe say you will give the rights to make and sell more carts to Atari Age? You could do it at a gaming expo and online at the same time. Could something like that work if finely tuned just right?

 

It has also been suggested that I just put the cart on eBay with a high reserve (higher than my asking price to account for the eBay and paypals exorbitant rates, but then again, they provide a valuable service by providing a marketplace and painless transactions).

[solidcorp]

This remind me of record collectors who will pay thousands to get their hands on a one-of-a-kind recording of Elvis, The Beatles, etc, yet won't let anyone hear it or allow a record company to reissue it for fear of losing it's value.

 

DS should at least let Atariage give this game a good workout and review it. Lets see if its a kick-*** game thats worth $32,768.00

 

It's more like a good but not famous studio vocalist records a song that Elvis couldn't sing, but led to the song Jailhouse Rock. The studio vocalist hangs on to their recording but plays it publicly. Afterwards several people are interested in buying a record of the song, but not enough to make it commercially viable. The artist decides to keep the recording to themselves, but later realizes that for enough money they would be willing to sell the record and give away the mp3's.

 

Everyone could have come and seen it at VGS in 2010 and 2011. It's exactly what it promises to be, a faithful port of the Cinematronics Star Castles coin op. No more no less.

[solidcorp]

thanks again for coming and showing star castles.

with all this interest your game I might contact you about being my next guest on my video cast.

(love the video another plug for VGS got to love it)

 

Thanks for having me, the show was GREAT as usual.

Edited July 21, 2011 by solidcorp

[tep392]

SC, the way I see it is if you produced and sold it for $30.00,...

 

Your analysis matches almost exactly what I heard last year.

 

Once again, didn't do it for the money, don't want to have it stolen, but there is a figure I can't refuse.

 

If you don't want your work stolen, your in the wrong business. There has always been software piracy and it will not go away. This is an unfortunate fact. The only way to avoid it is to not produce software or never make it publicly available.

 

The thing you need to realize about this small 2600 software market is that your primary audience are collectors who will buy the game because they want to hold the physical cart in their hands, not just play it. The people who download the rom without paying for it are cheapskates who would have never bought it in the first place. The number of carts you sell is not going to be substantially affected by the availability of the rom file.

[+Random Terrain]

The thing you need to realize about this small 2600 software market is that your primary audience are collectors who will buy the game because they want to hold the physical cart in their hands, not just play it. The people who download the rom without paying for it are cheapskates who would have never bought it in the first place. The number of carts you sell is not going to be substantially affected by the availability of the rom file.

Yep, some collectors will buy anything that is put into a cart no matter how bad the game is.

 

And it's not just cheapskates (that have the money but won't part with it) who download ROMs instead of buying. For example, a guy who is struggling to feed his wife and 5 kids would probably like to buy every F-ing game that homebrewers make, but if he has to choose between buying expensive homebrew games and letting his family starve, he'll probably choose to feed his family.

[solidcorp]

Solidcorp has committed a horrible injustice. He has copied another persons game without getting permission, and now

he wants to profit$ from this.

 

I don't care how hard you tried to get the copyright holders permission Solidcorp, the fact remains that you DO NOT have permission to make or distribute this re-production.

 

Until you get the original copyright holders permission, this game cannot be sold in good conscience.

 

Good point, but it's not an injustice until someone actually writes a check.

 

And that goes for all the coin op ports and inspired games in the homebrew community, not just Star Castle. You've singled me out because you think my price is absurd and I've wagged a finger at piracy.

 

Even the box and cartridge scans here on the site may be infringement, unless you have permission from Atari (ugh Infogrames). I LOVE Atari Age, and for all I know the reproductions are legal, but look at the bottom of the

Yars Revenge label: it says clearly "Label, Program, & Audiovusual © 1981 ATARI, INC."

[+Random Terrain]

Yars Revenge label: it says clearly "Label, Program, & Audiovusual © 1981 ATARI, INC."

Speaking of that, for people who are reading this and weren't alive or paying attention back then, although the date on it is 1981, it wasn't released until May of 1982:

 

www.randomterrain.com/atari-2600-memories-history-1982.html#may