applekevin Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 This has always confused me! It only has *8* colours, and particularly retina-frying ones! I've not had the opportunity, or rather disservice, to play around with SECAM games in Stella or what not, but can anyone share any sort of experiences relating to this? Surely, for those living in SECAM countries, it must have been a huge disappointment to bring the VCS and see...THAT on screen? To me, the biggest issue is that it would severely preclude the playability of some games. Ignoring aesthetics, are these colors enough for differentiating the parts of the game? Wouldn't the limited palette preclude one's ability to be able to recognize what you were even playing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 I'm sure somebody will come along and ask what SECAM colors are, so here you go: http://www.randomterrain.com/atari-2600-memories-tia-color-charts.html#interactive_color_charts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+FujiSkunk Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 (edited) To me, the biggest issue is that it would severely preclude the playability of some games. Ignoring aesthetics, are these colors enough for differentiating the parts of the game? Hopefully somebody who has actual knowledge on the topic will reply, but I'll speculate in the meantime. Those eight colors are formed by turning on anywhere from zero to all three of the RGB color "guns" full blast. Black is none, white is all three, red is one, cyan is two (blue + green), and so on. Perhaps, due to a rush to get SECAM 2600s out the door, or due to lack of interest in doing it right because they figured they wouldn't sell very many SECAM 2600s, they decided to go with the eight "all or nothing" colors and leave it at that. Edited August 18, 2011 by FujiSkunk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rastignac Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 People in France just didn't know about PAL or NTSC. The games were sold "as is", photos on the boxes and in the magazines were "like that". Nobody knew about the truth: hundred of colors, nice shades, etc. The Atari VCS 2600 had, and still has, a very bad reputation here, because it was so horrible. The "real" machine can do amazing things, but its french version is an epic fail. People always remember how "lame" picture was. When I show "real" games (PAL/NTSC), people just don't believe it's a 2600 software. Very few people knew about the nice PAL or NTSC machines. Some were going in near countries (Spain, Belgium, UK, etc) to buy a PAL machine !! (Cartridges are the same and work like a charm) (many french TV sets were PAL+SECAM, so it worked just fine). (I did buy a portuguese machine just to avoid the french ones !). The 2600jr and the 7800 are real PAL machines, so one can run its old "SECAM" cartridges but with true colors now. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Dart Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Very few people knew about the nice PAL or NTSC machines. Some were going in near countries (Spain, Belgium, UK, etc) to buy a PAL machine !! (Cartridges are the same and work like a charm) (many french TV sets were PAL+SECAM, so it worked just fine). (I did buy a portuguese machine just to avoid the french ones !). The 2600jr and the 7800 are real PAL machines, so one can run its old "SECAM" cartridges but with true colors now. So you would pop a PAL cart into your SECAM 2600 it would play, with horribly improvised colors? That sounds wild. I might want a French 2600 if that's the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rastignac Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 So you would pop a PAL cart into your SECAM 2600 it would play, with horribly improvised colors? That sounds wild. I might want a French 2600 if that's the case.PAL and SECAM cartridges are exact twins. Same program inside. Programmers just test for: - If "BW/Color" button is "color", then use rich PAL colors. - If "BW/Color" button is "BW", then use a eight colors palette. Pal machines will display 8 greys. Secam machines will display 8 various colors. Because SECAM machines have hard-wired BW button !! (It always says "BW" to the game). So the game "knows" that the console is PAL or SECAM by this mean. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+FujiSkunk Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 (edited) Programmers just test for: - If "BW/Color" button is "color", then use rich PAL colors. - If "BW/Color" button is "BW", then use a eight colors palette. Pal machines will display 8 greys. Secam machines will display 8 various colors. Because SECAM machines have hard-wired BW button !! (It always says "BW" to the game). So the game "knows" that the console is PAL or SECAM by this mean. You know, I was starting the to think the SECAM palette isn't entirely unlike the 8-color B&W palette. So what do games that don't use the color switch look like on a SECAM console and display? Same eight colors but even more garishly arranged? Edited August 18, 2011 by FujiSkunk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 So what do games that don't use the color switch look like on a SECAM console and display? Same eight colors but even more garishly arranged? From Atari NTSC vs PAL vs SECAM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+FujiSkunk Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 From Atari NTSC vs PAL vs SECAM... That actually looks kind of cool in its own way. But I'm sure the novelty would wear out fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keilbaca Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Wait a min... if French Atari 2600's were hard wired B/W... That means it should be pretty easy to make a switch, to make it a true PAL 2600. I kinda want one now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+FujiSkunk Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Wait a min... if French Atari 2600's were hard wired B/W... That means it should be pretty easy to make a switch, to make it a true PAL 2600. No, if I'm understanding this correctly, you'll still see the same eight colors. Depending on the game, you may see a different arrangement of those eight colors, but you won't see the game's "true" PAL colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+thegoldenband Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 The Atari 8-bit FAQ at Atarimania.com has an answer to the "why". I don't 100% understand the technical details, but small market size seems to be the critical issue: Jerry Jessop explains why French Ataris produce fewer colors: I will tell you why it only has monochrome out, because it's SECAM and a SECAM GTIA was never produced. The PAL GTIA is used in France and the Lum outputs are run into an onboard encoder to produce a "psudo" color depending on the Luminance output, composite only. This is why a SECAM VCS or 800 has nowhere near the same number of colors (16) availible as a PAL or NTSC unit (256). The FGTIA was never completed as the market size did not warrant the expense. The largest SECAM market is not France but the Soviet Union (former) and in 80-84 sales of these items there were not possible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impaler_26 Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Ben Larson made a SECAM version of his game Incoming!, you can grab the ROM here: http://www.atariage....8-incoming-v10/ Enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+FujiSkunk Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 (edited) The Atari 8-bit FAQ at Atarimania.com has an answer to the "why". I don't 100% understand the technical details, but small market size seems to be the critical issue... So I speculated correctly. It wasn't worth the effort to them. However it does sound like you can hack a SECAM 2600 into a PAL 2600 if you really wanted. It would take more than just re-enabling the color switch, though. Edited August 19, 2011 by FujiSkunk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maiki Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 (edited) Don't get me wrong but the SECAM pallette is not that bad at all... all colours nice and shiny - the true 8bit fashion... C-64 has nothing like that with its washed-out half tones... It even has proper yellow colour which the systems mentioned can only dream of! Obviously it is missing RED!!! A big disappointment. overall: SECAM 2600 has a colour palette that makes sence... the true 8bit palette with nothing missing except for red, no other 2600 has these shiny tones Edited August 19, 2011 by maiki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_79 Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 However it does sound like you can hack a SECAM 2600 into a PAL 2600 if you really wanted. It would take more than just re-enabling the color switch, though. Actually there's a NTSC TIA chip in a Secam VCS (http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/90234-need-help-with-a-broken-rf-modulator/), so you could turn it into a NTSC console. Probably that would require quite a lot of work. I think you would need to disable the secam encoder, change the quartz oscillator and install one of the NTSC video mod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Hunter Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 So you would pop a PAL cart into your SECAM 2600 it would play, with horribly improvised colors? That sounds wild. I might want a French 2600 if that's the case.PAL and SECAM cartridges are exact twins. Same program inside. Not always. Activision produced different SECAM versions of their games: http://www.atarimania.com/screenshots_games_atari-2600-vcs-p_total-page-step-format-publisher_5-1-200-4-3_2_G.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rastignac Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Not always.Activision produced different SECAM versions of their games I think "Space Shuttle" really needed a SECAM only version, because it uses the BW/Color button (engines control). I don't know how the french version plays without this button. Other games have translated texts on screen. But I don't if colors' palette has been worked for better SECAM support. There's also Coleco's Smurfs: the french one, named "Schtroumpfs", is labeled as "SECAM only". [ But I don't think it's different from PAL one. (I tried one PAL once (from UK). Booth on SECAM machine and PAL machine. The two seem really identical, showing no differences). ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deteacher Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 So what do games that don't use the color switch look like on a SECAM console and display? Same eight colors but even more garishly arranged? From Atari NTSC vs PAL vs SECAM AAAHHHHH!!!! MY EYES! MY EYES! IT BURRRRRRNNNNSSSSS! One thing I can say about SECAM...the colors are rather vibrant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Hunter Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 There's also Coleco's Smurfs: the french one, named "Schtroumpfs", is labeled as "SECAM only". [ But I don't think it's different from PAL one. (I tried one PAL once (from UK). Booth on SECAM machine and PAL machine. The two seem really identical, showing no differences). ] Yes, CBS SECAM carts are in fact PAL. BTW: do you own any SECAM Activision carts yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rastignac Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 BTW: do you own any SECAM Activision carts yourself? I have many Activision games, from various countries (UK, Belgium, France). I think I don't have one with "SECAM" or "<S>" on its label. I think I don't have one with french texts on screen. They seem to be "PAL / normal" ones, no "rare / SECAM" ones.I should check them all again. (My "Decathlon" has a brown label with english+french texts; I don't see this one on AtariMania). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Hunter Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 (My "Decathlon" has a brown label with english+french texts; I don't see this one on AtariMania). http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-2600-vcs-activision-decathlon-_8006.html Yours is most problably sunfaded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rastignac Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 It really looks genuine brown, not faded; the other colors (blue, green, etc) are not faded either and are still solid. (Dirty quick lame phone pics attached) (I can quality-scan it if needed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 The Atari 8-bit FAQ at Atarimania.com has an answer to the "why". I don't 100% understand the technical details, but small market size seems to be the critical issue... So I speculated correctly. It wasn't worth the effort to them. However it does sound like you can hack a SECAM 2600 into a PAL 2600 if you really wanted. It would take more than just re-enabling the color switch, though. Yeah, SECAM color is generated quite differently than PAL and NTSC with the color information spread over two lines and probably would have required major changes to TIA including some sort of line-buffer. I haven't seen Atari's solution for SECAM (external to TIA), but it appears to only use the LUM lines. Forcing B&W mode helps ensure that different objects will have different LUM values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+FujiSkunk Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 However it does sound like you can hack a SECAM 2600 into a PAL 2600 if you really wanted... Actually there's a NTSC TIA chip in a Secam VCS... That seems odd, but then again I guess it wouldn't really matter which version of the TIA they used if both are capable of running at all possible clock speeds. Probably NTSC TIAs were produced in greater quantities as well, allowing more to be diverted to SECAM machines. Yeah, SECAM color is generated quite differently than PAL and NTSC with the color information spread over two lines... Ewwww... I haven't seen Atari's solution for SECAM (external to TIA), but it appears to only use the LUM lines. Forcing B&W mode helps ensure that different objects will have different LUM values. Only if the cartridge makes it so. It sounds like Atari was good about making sure their European cartridges were programmed to have SECAM-specific color selections, but I'll bet that wasn't the case for all games or all companies. It makes me wonder if any games show up as a completely blank screen when plugged into a SECAM 2600. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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