+Random Terrain Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE146 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) Everyone hates attorneys until you need one. But that's usually because if you're not in the field, you only think of them as dealing with litigation, or those ones on tv chasing injuries etc. But if you're drafting a will, setting up contracts, filing bankruptcy, divorcing someone who is lying about you, or a myriad of other tasks you need to CYA with, a specialized and good attorney is a godsend. Note this is different than a "bad attorney" as they are as varied as you can find anyone.. like the "programmers" here at AA. Some are good, some are clueless. Edited August 29, 2011 by NE146 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disjaukifa Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Everyone hates attorneys until you need one. But that's usually because if you're not in the field, you only think of them as dealing with litigation, or those ones on tv chasing injuries etc. But if you're drafting a will, setting up contracts, filing bankruptcy, divorcing someone who is lying about you, or a myriad of other tasks you need to CYA with, a specialized and good attorney is a godsend. Note this is different than a "bad attorney" as they are as varied as you can find anyone.. like the "programmers" here at AA. Some are good, some are clueless. I think I was just called clueless . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+LS650 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 As one of my friends pointed out to me, you have to think of a lawyer as a "hired gun". When you're in trouble and you need help, you hire a professional 'gunslinger' to fight your battle for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+atari2600land Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 As seen on Jay Leno's Headlines... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Willy Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 And mainly they should not create trouble just to profit from it. That's the type of lawyer that I disrespect the most by far. This. 99% of the problems today have a lawyer at the root trying to make a buck. I'm not saying 99% of lawyers are that way, just that the few that are make 99% of todays woes. You don't even need to dig to find the lawyer at the root in most cases... they're right there in the thick of it, usually. Examples please. Patent trolls and abuse of copyright (RightHaven is a prime example) are two that most computer folks follow. Those are examples where lawyers don't even hide the fact that they are just parasites on the economy. Abuse of patents is rampant in many other fields, particularly GM crops. Google Monsanto for one of the worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Patent trolls and abuse of copyright (RightHaven is a prime example) are two that most computer folks follow. Those are examples where lawyers don't even hide the fact that they are just parasites on the economy. Abuse of patents is rampant in many other fields, particularly GM crops. Google Monsanto for one of the worst. But it's evil companies making lawyers do those bad things. Boycott all companies and save our lawyers! Once all the companies have been destroyed, lawyers will be free to do good deeds. I'm sure they won't even ask for money. They'll work for rainbows and glittery unicorn farts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Willy Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 But it's evil companies making lawyers do those bad things. Boycott all companies and save our lawyers! Once all the companies have been destroyed, lawyers will be free to do good deeds. I'm sure they won't even ask for money. They'll work for rainbows and glittery unicorn farts. That's what they pay programmers with right now. Damn lawyers want all our glittery unicorn farts! Funny, you spend thirty years teaching business students that "greed is good" and law students that "if it's not specifically forbidden, it's implicitly permitted, and courts are about LAW, not justice" and for some reason the country goes to hell in a handbasket. Go figure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Funny, you spend thirty years teaching business students that "greed is good". . . That reminds me of a quote from Oliver Stone: The zero-sum game: that's the way it is if you're a competitive person and you see capitalism in that way. Zero-sum game implies winners and losers which I don't agree with. Somebody has to win and somebody has to lose, it all comes back to zero (minus eight, plus eight). But I don't agree with that because all boats can rise on a rising sea. Good films can help other films to be open. There's a different psychology at work. If you're overly competitive, you'll be exclusionary and say it's a zero-sum game (I must get eight and he must lose eight). Gekko simplifies it down to a painting. He says he bought this painting or this building for X and he sold it for Y and he made that profit and he assumes that somebody else got beat, but that's not necessarily true. You don't always lose. ~Oliver Stone (adapted) [Director's commentary from his Wall Street DVD (2000)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
so_tough! Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 And mainly they should not create trouble just to profit from it. That's the type of lawyer that I disrespect the most by far. This. 99% of the problems today have a lawyer at the root trying to make a buck. I'm not saying 99% of lawyers are that way, just that the few that are make 99% of todays woes. You don't even need to dig to find the lawyer at the root in most cases... they're right there in the thick of it, usually. Examples please. Patent trolls and abuse of copyright (RightHaven is a prime example) are two that most computer folks follow. Those are examples where lawyers don't even hide the fact that they are just parasites on the economy. Abuse of patents is rampant in many other fields, particularly GM crops. Google Monsanto for one of the worst. I had to look those examples up. It's pretty absurd to say all Lawyers are assholes and are responsible for 99 percent of todays woes. Seriously, come on. I find it pretty offensive too, since my brother and his girlfriend are both lawyers and are great human beings. But, you are free to have your opinion. What's wrong with the Monsato thing anyway? I've only read one article, am I missing something? Anyway, you think lawyers suck, then don't ever use one. Pretty simple. You're getting a divorce? Don't use a lawyer etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletunes Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I was selling a condo one time. There was a lawyer involved (on my side). Actually, the lawyer was the realtor's husband. WORST IDEA EVER. I wanted a quick sale. I paid X for the unit four years ago, and I wanted roughly X back. The realtor insisted on listing at 2X. Guess what? No one was interested at that price. We lower the price to 1.9X, 1.85X, no interest. On the last day of the realtor's contract, surprise! someone shows interest. They put down $1,000 as a good faith whatever, the realtor's contract is extended. A couple days later, the potential buyers pull out because they don't actually have the money. The lawyer makes a racket ('on my behalf') to keep the $1,000 and he eventually settles for $300. Months go buy, no interest, the price drops a little more, no dice. (this was when the economy was good, btw) Finally I contact one of those "we'll buy any house fast" places and they agree to buy. I call the realtor to let her know, she puts the lawyer husband on the phone and he starts YELLING because I have no right to sell my property, I signed a contract, yada yada yada. Fine. we come to an agreement, I sell to the "we'll buy" people, but they take their fees and the realtor takes her fees, and I wind up with X, WHICH IS ALL I WANTED IN THE FIRST PLACE SIX MONTHS PRIOR. And the $300? That's how much I had to pay the lawyer to get the $300. I have only dealt with one other lawyer in my entire life, and he was no better. So if someone actually makes this game, I will buy three and send them each a copy- free. For those of you who know a good lawyer, congratulations. I envy you. I'm sure such creatures do exist somewhere, and maybe I'll get to meet one in person someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
so_tough! Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I was selling a condo one time. There was a lawyer involved (on my side). Actually, the lawyer was the realtor's husband. WORST IDEA EVER. I wanted a quick sale. I paid X for the unit four years ago, and I wanted roughly X back. The realtor insisted on listing at 2X. Guess what? No one was interested at that price. We lower the price to 1.9X, 1.85X, no interest. On the last day of the realtor's contract, surprise! someone shows interest. They put down $1,000 as a good faith whatever, the realtor's contract is extended. A couple days later, the potential buyers pull out because they don't actually have the money. The lawyer makes a racket ('on my behalf') to keep the $1,000 and he eventually settles for $300. Months go buy, no interest, the price drops a little more, no dice. (this was when the economy was good, btw) Finally I contact one of those "we'll buy any house fast" places and they agree to buy. I call the realtor to let her know, she puts the lawyer husband on the phone and he starts YELLING because I have no right to sell my property, I signed a contract, yada yada yada. Fine. we come to an agreement, I sell to the "we'll buy" people, but they take their fees and the realtor takes her fees, and I wind up with X, WHICH IS ALL I WANTED IN THE FIRST PLACE SIX MONTHS PRIOR. And the $300? That's how much I had to pay the lawyer to get the $300. I have only dealt with one other lawyer in my entire life, and he was no better. So if someone actually makes this game, I will buy three and send them each a copy- free. For those of you who know a good lawyer, congratulations. I envy you. I'm sure such creatures do exist somewhere, and maybe I'll get to meet one in person someday. Apart from the lawyer yelling at you, what else did he do wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletunes Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 He charged me $300 to get $300 from the prospective buyers. It was a total wash (except for him and the prospective buyers). That is not what I consider looking out for the client's best interests, that's lining your pockets. The only person who benefited from the transaction was the lawyer. The idea of trying to keep a portion of the $1,000 was presented to me as being for my benefit, but it was, in fact, solely for the lawyer's benefit. Effectively, I paid him to do nothing. If I pulled a stunt like that at work, it would be called stealing from the company and I would lose my job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
so_tough! Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 (edited) He charged me $300 to get $300 from the prospective buyers. It was a total wash (except for him and the prospective buyers). That is not what I consider looking out for the client's best interests, that's lining your pockets. The only person who benefited from the transaction was the lawyer. The idea of trying to keep a portion of the $1,000 was presented to me as being for my benefit, but it was, in fact, solely for the lawyer's benefit. Effectively, I paid him to do nothing. If I pulled a stunt like that at work, it would be called stealing from the company and I would lose my job. You wanted his services. You want him to do it for free? Lawyers deserve the money they make . I know how hard they work. Some of you guys hate lawyers so much, then don't deal with them. Question, did the lawyer ask you was settling for $300 ok? Edited August 30, 2011 by so_tough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletunes Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I did not expect him to work for free. I did not expect him to go after the $1,000 in the first place- It was his idea. Did he ask if settling for $300 was okay? He told me he was able to get $300. It wasn't presented to me as "is that okay" It was presented to me as "we were able to settle for $300" I suppose I could have said "no, go back for more." I don't know if he would have been able to get more. It would have cost more legal fees/time. I could have wound up paying him more than $300 to settle for $300. In that sense, I consider myself lucky to break even on that aspect of the deal. I do not deny the existence of good, hardworking lawyers who are in the business to look out for their client's best interests. I do not deny that such individuals should be compensated adequately for their services. I just happened to wind up with one that does not fit that description. Some are good, some are not. I do not claim to know the percentages. To say they're all bad is as ridiculous as saying they're all good. Either I have bad luck with lawyers, or I don't have enough sense to tell the good from the bad. I have no intentions of dealing with lawyers ever again or putting myself in a situation where I might require their services. I hope you might be able to understand why a person in my position could feel this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emehr Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Months go buy, no interest, the price drops a little more, no dice. (this was when the economy was good, btw) Finally I contact one of those "we'll buy any house fast" places and they agree to buy. I call the realtor to let her know, she puts the lawyer husband on the phone and he starts YELLING because I have no right to sell my property, I signed a contract, yada yada yada. So this lawyer-guy, whose wife is a realtor, drew up a contract that forbade you from selling your own property? Seriously? It's not your fault his wife wasn't doing her job. Sometimes you gotta take matters into your own hands. I would've told that lawyer to strike that portion from the contract or shove the whole thing up his ass. That just shows a complete lack on integrity on their part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
so_tough! Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I did not expect him to work for free. I did not expect him to go after the $1,000 in the first place- It was his idea. Did he ask if settling for $300 was okay? He told me he was able to get $300. It wasn't presented to me as "is that okay" It was presented to me as "we were able to settle for $300" I suppose I could have said "no, go back for more." I don't know if he would have been able to get more. It would have cost more legal fees/time. I could have wound up paying him more than $300 to settle for $300. In that sense, I consider myself lucky to break even on that aspect of the deal. I do not deny the existence of good, hardworking lawyers who are in the business to look out for their client's best interests. I do not deny that such individuals should be compensated adequately for their services. I just happened to wind up with one that does not fit that description. Some are good, some are not. I do not claim to know the percentages. To say they're all bad is as ridiculous as saying they're all good. Either I have bad luck with lawyers, or I don't have enough sense to tell the good from the bad. I have no intentions of dealing with lawyers ever again or putting myself in a situation where I might require their services. I hope you might be able to understand why a person in my position could feel this way. I understand. Hmm, anyway I've had enough of sticking up for lawyers today. Tiring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toiletunes Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 So this lawyer-guy, whose wife is a realtor, drew up a contract that forbade you from selling your own property? Seriously? It's not your fault his wife wasn't doing her job. Sometimes you gotta take matters into your own hands. I would've told that lawyer to strike that portion from the contract or shove the whole thing up his ass. That just shows a complete lack on integrity on their part. Yep. the realtor had the exclusive right to negotiate the sale. I understand this- as a realtor, I'd be pretty cheezed if I was trying to sell a house only to discover the owner had contracts with five other realtors, but seriously? You're going to threaten to take me to court because I was able to do the job your wife couldn't? The whole thing (including trying to sell for 2X) was because she wanted her commission (and as much as possible) which she got anyway, but come on. There's more to life than commission and legal fees for nonexistent problems. I should have just called the "we'll buy any house fast" people in the first place. My mistake. Lesson learned. Moving on now. edit: this was one person's one bad experience with one lawyer, the sample is not necessarily representative of the whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 . . . the sample is not necessarily representative of the whole. That's what she said, but with different spelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+FujiSkunk Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 (edited) I'm not saying 99% of lawyers are that way, just that the few that are make 99% of todays woes. You don't even need to dig to find the lawyer at the root in most cases... they're right there in the thick of it, usually. Examples please. You actually need an example of how a lawyer can make things difficult for the video game industry when no one asked him to? Remember Jack Thompson? Edited August 30, 2011 by FujiSkunk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Willy Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 (edited) And mainly they should not create trouble just to profit from it. That's the type of lawyer that I disrespect the most by far. This. 99% of the problems today have a lawyer at the root trying to make a buck. I'm not saying 99% of lawyers are that way, just that the few that are make 99% of todays woes. You don't even need to dig to find the lawyer at the root in most cases... they're right there in the thick of it, usually. Examples please. Patent trolls and abuse of copyright (RightHaven is a prime example) are two that most computer folks follow. Those are examples where lawyers don't even hide the fact that they are just parasites on the economy. Abuse of patents is rampant in many other fields, particularly GM crops. Google Monsanto for one of the worst. I had to look those examples up. It's pretty absurd to say all Lawyers are assholes and are responsible for 99 percent of todays woes. Seriously, come on. I find it pretty offensive too, since my brother and his girlfriend are both lawyers and are great human beings. But, you are free to have your opinion. What's wrong with the Monsato thing anyway? I've only read one article, am I missing something? Anyway, you think lawyers suck, then don't ever use one. Pretty simple. You're getting a divorce? Don't use a lawyer etc etc. Way to fail reading comprehension. Look at the bold text... I said THE FEW WHO ARE. As to Monsanto, they often drive uncovered trucks past fields, with seed blowing out of the bed, and plant their own crops in fields adjacent to regular crops, which bees then cross-pollinate. Monsanto then sues the owners of the fields claiming they've "stolen" Monsanto's GM crops. They're really nasty in court. Funny, you spend thirty years teaching business students that "greed is good". . . That reminds me of a quote from Oliver Stone: The zero-sum game: that's the way it is if you're a competitive person and you see capitalism in that way. Zero-sum game implies winners and losers which I don't agree with. Somebody has to win and somebody has to lose, it all comes back to zero (minus eight, plus eight). But I don't agree with that because all boats can rise on a rising sea. Good films can help other films to be open. There's a different psychology at work. If you're overly competitive, you'll be exclusionary and say it's a zero-sum game (I must get eight and he must lose eight). Gekko simplifies it down to a painting. He says he bought this painting or this building for X and he sold it for Y and he made that profit and he assumes that somebody else got beat, but that's not necessarily true. You don't always lose. ~Oliver Stone (adapted) [Director's commentary from his Wall Street DVD (2000)] Except it often doesn't work that way in real life since we are dealing with finite resources and limited abilities. In such a case, thermodynamics requires a LESS THAN SUM ZERO outcome - not only are there winners and losers, but the losers MUST outweigh the winners by at least the level of inefficiency in the system. A rising sea lifts all boats, yes, but it also puts the shoreline property owners into shelters, destroying their property. What's good for "boats" may be extremely bad for everyone else. Edited August 30, 2011 by Chilly Willy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
so_tough! Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I'm not saying 99% of lawyers are that way, just that the few that are make 99% of todays woes Pretty sweeping statement there mate Is that a fact about Monsato or hear say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
so_tough! Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8733350/Council-lawyer-who-hanged-himself-wrote-suicide-letter-to-controversial-boss-Andrea-Hill.html Sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE146 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Well my wife is an attorney, so are her friends, my sister is an attorney, a good half-dozen of my friends in my "close-friend" circle are attorneys. I'm surrounded by them so I gotta like them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Helmet Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Well my wife is an attorney, so are her friends, my sister is an attorney, a good half-dozen of my friends in my "close-friend" circle are attorneys. I'm surrounded by them so I gotta like them Yup. Me too. My brother is an attorney. I've been kicking the idea of law school around as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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