Jump to content

Photo

600XL Video Upgrade

600xl video upgrade

30 replies to this topic

#1 Larry OFFLINE  

Larry

    River Patroller

  • 4,083 posts
  • Location:U.S. -- Midwest

Posted Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:28 AM

This is now a "quest" -- and way more interesting to me than an adventure game!

I've been doing a little research on the 600XL video issues, trying to find a "Quick and Easy" solution such as the excellent information in the "Quick and Easy Video Upgrade for the 800XL."

http://www.atariage....rade-for-800xl/

That thread actually contains a reference to an article on the 600XL: (BTW, the author of this also did an article on bringing the ram in a 600XL up to 64K.)

http://atrey.karlin....i/600xlmon.html

This method is way easier than SuperVideo 2.1. Has anyone done this mod, and does it give good results? I wonder if it can be "tweaked" to improve the results?

There is also the Best Electronics 600XL kit shown on this page:

http://www.best-elec...800xl.htm#600XL

Has anyone done the B.E. kit mod, and is it the same as the mod shown above? Or is the BE mod a kit of missing parts to make the 600XL video functional through a normal monitor jack? Does it provide good results, or do you then have to "mod" the results to get good video? (If the 600XL video ends up looking like a stock 800XL, that's probably not a good thing.)

-Larry

#2 sloopy OFFLINE  

sloopy

    River Patroller

  • 2,424 posts
  • lookin for bits, i like bits...
  • Location:in my cave of despair, surrounded by toys...

Posted Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:01 AM

When I do a 600XL update, the Ken Sumrall method is what i use for adding the AV connector and composite/chroma-luma, and the 64k... it looks every bit as good as my 800XL with SV 2.0, but you have to make sure you remove or clip the RF Mod, if you leave it connected, it will work, the AV jack output will look washed out...

if you need any help with it, just ask.

sloopy.

#3 orpheuswaking OFFLINE  

orpheuswaking

    Quadrunner

  • 5,770 posts
  • Lone Raider Time!
  • Location:Indianapolis, Indiana, USA

Posted Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:49 AM

I've done the Best Electronics Mod on about five or six machines. It is exactly as you surmise, a kit to add missing components, it does allow for Composite & sVideo. After it is complete composite looks like a stock 800XL, sVideo looks a tad better.

#4 Larry OFFLINE  

Larry

    River Patroller

  • Topic Starter
  • 4,083 posts
  • Location:U.S. -- Midwest

Posted Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:33 PM

Thanks Sloopy and Orpheuswaking!

Sometime at your convenience, how about a screen shot from your modded 600XL of some Gr. 0 text? I'll reciprocate when I get my KJMann board going.

@Simon-
About how many components do you have to "stuff" with the BEST kit?

-Larry

#5 orpheuswaking OFFLINE  

orpheuswaking

    Quadrunner

  • 5,770 posts
  • Lone Raider Time!
  • Location:Indianapolis, Indiana, USA

Posted Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:33 PM

It's approximately 20 components.

#6 sloopy OFFLINE  

sloopy

    River Patroller

  • 2,424 posts
  • lookin for bits, i like bits...
  • Location:in my cave of despair, surrounded by toys...

Posted Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:45 PM

the best kit is a mod designed by Jeff Popp, and it basically just populates the parts that are silkscreened in there, but were installed... the big benefit of this, the machine is exactly like a 800XL... it gives full composite and RF capabilities... this has been discussed here...

http://www.atariage....ost__p__2122290

I edited a pic of the area where the parts go, with them all labeled... there might be one or two more below the pic tho.. those and removing the channel 3-4 switch and putting the 5pin DIN AV jack is all there is to it. i have only done one Best/Popp upgrade and it was on that 600XL from Syfo. I have a full Popp kit from Best as people have wanted me to do the upgrade on their machines, but all of them have decided to go with the simple upgrade instead, as its much cheaper installed from me (Popp-$22, Sumrall-$15).

sloopy.

#7 orpheuswaking OFFLINE  

orpheuswaking

    Quadrunner

  • 5,770 posts
  • Lone Raider Time!
  • Location:Indianapolis, Indiana, USA

Posted Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:50 PM

http://orph.atarinet...?g2_itemId=4413

#8 Larry OFFLINE  

Larry

    River Patroller

  • Topic Starter
  • 4,083 posts
  • Location:U.S. -- Midwest

Posted Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:08 PM

Thanks for the links and pics, guys. I've finally gotten a little more clever and made a folder just for AtariAge links/threads, so these are safely tucked away.

And WOW, lots of good info in that monitor thread!

-Larry

#9 sloopy OFFLINE  

sloopy

    River Patroller

  • 2,424 posts
  • lookin for bits, i like bits...
  • Location:in my cave of despair, surrounded by toys...

Posted Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:47 PM

i have a folder of the files themselves... makes them easy to find ;')

(my Atari folder is ~38GiB's)
sloopy.

#10 Larry OFFLINE  

Larry

    River Patroller

  • Topic Starter
  • 4,083 posts
  • Location:U.S. -- Midwest

Posted Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:51 PM

That's a lot! Do you cut and paste into Word or some other means of saving the text/pics?

I've got all the parts on hand or ordered today to do the K. Sumrall video mod. Found a good seller on eBay to buy small quantities of pieces without getting gouged on shipping.

Do you use a small board or just solder the pieces together? My inclination is to use a small piece of perf board.

-Larry

i have a folder of the files themselves... makes them easy to find ;')

(my Atari folder is ~38GiB's)
sloopy.



#11 sloopy OFFLINE  

sloopy

    River Patroller

  • 2,424 posts
  • lookin for bits, i like bits...
  • Location:in my cave of despair, surrounded by toys...

Posted Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:25 PM

That's a lot! Do you cut and paste into Word or some other means of saving the text/pics?

I've got all the parts on hand or ordered today to do the K. Sumrall video mod. Found a good seller on eBay to buy small quantities of pieces without getting gouged on shipping.

Do you use a small board or just solder the pieces together? My inclination is to use a small piece of perf board.

-Larry

i have a folder of the files themselves... makes them easy to find ;')

(my Atari folder is ~38GiB's)
sloopy.


should have asked, could have sent you a set for $6 shipped, i have a bunch on hand ;')

as for saving text, i use VIM for text, and pics are just right-click save as, and then rename and move...

sloopy.

#12 rchennau OFFLINE  

rchennau

    Chopper Commander

  • 199 posts
  • Location:California

Posted Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:06 PM

the best kit is a mod designed by Jeff Popp, and it basically just populates the parts that are silkscreened in there, but were installed... the big benefit of this, the machine is exactly like a 800XL... it gives full composite and RF capabilities... this has been discussed here...

http://www.atariage....ost__p__2122290

I edited a pic of the area where the parts go, with them all labeled... there might be one or two more below the pic tho.. those and removing the channel 3-4 switch and putting the 5pin DIN AV jack is all there is to it. i have only done one Best/Popp upgrade and it was on that 600XL from Syfo. I have a full Popp kit from Best as people have wanted me to do the upgrade on their machines, but all of them have decided to go with the simple upgrade instead, as its much cheaper installed from me (Popp-$22, Sumrall-$15).

sloopy.


I can't seem to find the Jeff Popp instructions. So I'm going with the Super Video 2.1 upgrade for my 600XL. Thanks to a little chiding by Sloopy I broke down and purchased a radio shack desolder. My deslodering skills installantly skyrocketed. My current status is I've desoldered everything and have populated the first four components. I added one of those funky hat / magnifying glasses / light to my setup and I am very happy.

I'm not to hopeful that my efforts will prove succesfull. I KNOW I've desoldered off footpads and am not to certain I haven't cut a trace by accident. But one has to learn. Plus I scored an inbox 600XL from Ebay for $9.99 with joystick and three carts.

#13 Larry OFFLINE  

Larry

    River Patroller

  • Topic Starter
  • 4,083 posts
  • Location:U.S. -- Midwest

Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:55 AM

Hi Rich-

Which desolderer did you get? The iron with a bulb on it to "suck?" (I've seen that model in RS before.)

I've been using braid, and found it makes a heck of a difference what braid you use. I ran out and bought some from Radio Shack, and it was essentially "solder-repellent!" I've gotten the "good stuff" from BG-Micro (Velleman is the brand). The strands are finer and more densely packed than the RS.

Good luck with SV2.1, and do let us know how it comes out.

-Larry


the best kit is a mod designed by Jeff Popp, and it basically just populates the parts that are silkscreened in there, but were installed... the big benefit of this, the machine is exactly like a 800XL... it gives full composite and RF capabilities... this has been discussed here...

http://www.atariage....ost__p__2122290

I edited a pic of the area where the parts go, with them all labeled... there might be one or two more below the pic tho.. those and removing the channel 3-4 switch and putting the 5pin DIN AV jack is all there is to it. i have only done one Best/Popp upgrade and it was on that 600XL from Syfo. I have a full Popp kit from Best as people have wanted me to do the upgrade on their machines, but all of them have decided to go with the simple upgrade instead, as its much cheaper installed from me (Popp-$22, Sumrall-$15).

sloopy.


I can't seem to find the Jeff Popp instructions. So I'm going with the Super Video 2.1 upgrade for my 600XL. Thanks to a little chiding by Sloopy I broke down and purchased a radio shack desolder. My deslodering skills installantly skyrocketed. My current status is I've desoldered everything and have populated the first four components. I added one of those funky hat / magnifying glasses / light to my setup and I am very happy.

I'm not to hopeful that my efforts will prove succesfull. I KNOW I've desoldered off footpads and am not to certain I haven't cut a trace by accident. But one has to learn. Plus I scored an inbox 600XL from Ebay for $9.99 with joystick and three carts.



#14 sloopy OFFLINE  

sloopy

    River Patroller

  • 2,424 posts
  • lookin for bits, i like bits...
  • Location:in my cave of despair, surrounded by toys...

Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:41 AM

with Radio Shack braid, i find turning up the heat a bit more, is needed, and then it works... or as well as braid has ever worked for me, as i have never been a big fan of braid.... The Radio Shack desolder tool i have used for years (20+ on/off), and altho there are better tools, it is a workable solution once you get experience with it...

sloopy.

Hi Rich-

Which desolderer did you get? The iron with a bulb on it to "suck?" (I've seen that model in RS before.)

I've been using braid, and found it makes a heck of a difference what braid you use. I ran out and bought some from Radio Shack, and it was essentially "solder-repellent!" I've gotten the "good stuff" from BG-Micro (Velleman is the brand). The strands are finer and more densely packed than the RS.

Good luck with SV2.1, and do let us know how it comes out.

-Larry


the best kit is a mod designed by Jeff Popp, and it basically just populates the parts that are silkscreened in there, but were installed... the big benefit of this, the machine is exactly like a 800XL... it gives full composite and RF capabilities... this has been discussed here...

http://www.atariage....ost__p__2122290

I edited a pic of the area where the parts go, with them all labeled... there might be one or two more below the pic tho.. those and removing the channel 3-4 switch and putting the 5pin DIN AV jack is all there is to it. i have only done one Best/Popp upgrade and it was on that 600XL from Syfo. I have a full Popp kit from Best as people have wanted me to do the upgrade on their machines, but all of them have decided to go with the simple upgrade instead, as its much cheaper installed from me (Popp-$22, Sumrall-$15).

sloopy.


I can't seem to find the Jeff Popp instructions. So I'm going with the Super Video 2.1 upgrade for my 600XL. Thanks to a little chiding by Sloopy I broke down and purchased a radio shack desolder. My deslodering skills installantly skyrocketed. My current status is I've desoldered everything and have populated the first four components. I added one of those funky hat / magnifying glasses / light to my setup and I am very happy.

I'm not to hopeful that my efforts will prove succesfull. I KNOW I've desoldered off footpads and am not to certain I haven't cut a trace by accident. But one has to learn. Plus I scored an inbox 600XL from Ebay for $9.99 with joystick and three carts.



#15 orpheuswaking OFFLINE  

orpheuswaking

    Quadrunner

  • 5,770 posts
  • Lone Raider Time!
  • Location:Indianapolis, Indiana, USA

Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:13 AM

i keep meaning to scan and/or type up the jeff popp mod instructions, but I keep puting it off

#16 Larry OFFLINE  

Larry

    River Patroller

  • Topic Starter
  • 4,083 posts
  • Location:U.S. -- Midwest

Posted Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:56 AM

First stop is the Ken Sumrall monitor jack mod. Sloopy kindly built a very small "project board" with the necessary transistor circuit on it for me.
So here are some pics of the "work in progress" on the 600XL video.

The first picture shows the composite video per the mod (with the RF composite connection removed).

The second is the S-video ouput using the composite video as the Chroma source.

To me, the composite looks very good, and is easily equal to my 130XE's using composite output. Adding the Luminance improves the text sharpness a bit.

This really is a very useful mod for the 600XL. I also have a kit of parts for the Jeff Popp mod to try at a later date.

-Larry

Edit: After some extended use, I can see a slight bit of artifacting in the S-Video GR. 0 text. Likely due to composite video being used for the Chroma. Not bad, but it is noticeable.

Attached Thumbnails

  • Composite Video.jpg
  • S-Video Using Comp Chroma.jpg


#17 Larry OFFLINE  

Larry

    River Patroller

  • Topic Starter
  • 4,083 posts
  • Location:U.S. -- Midwest

Posted Wed Dec 7, 2011 8:13 AM

More on the video -- 600XL "Electronic Noise"

I've finished (at least temporarily) with the 600XL that I was working on. S-Video, Mega-Hz 512KB SRAM upgrade, base memory to 64K -- but I'm still not satisfied with the video. BTW, the 512 SRAM upgrade was a bit difficult due to the size constraints of the 600XL. It would not be an issue in the more spacious 800XL.

But back to the video. In the last post showing the S-VIdeo, you can clearly see horizontal lines of some type of interference. So my first question is "what is it?" It doesn't look like the RF that I have been familiar with in the past. All my Atari's (600Xl all the way to XE's) show this to varying degrees on my PC display, but this 600XL appears the worst of the lot. Here is another screen shot that shows the same 600XL but after the upper and lower RF shields have been re-attached. (Note: a section of the upper shield had to be cut out for the SRAM upgrade, but 95% of the shield is there.) To me, this looks improved with the shields on.

2nd question -- has anyone come up with a connection point for the Sumrall circuit for (true) Chroma, and not using the composite as the Chroma source? Perhaps a component or two must be added, but hopefully without the full "Jeff Popp" addition of all the components. Eventually, I plan to get to the the full Super Video which is not a lot different from the Jeff Popp mod.

3rd question -- has anyone ever seen/done a "block diagram" of the 600XL video similar to those for the 800XL and 130XE in the Atari Classics "Super Video" article? For someone like me that has minimal skills with a schematic, those diagrams were very useful.

-Larry

Attached Thumbnails

  • 600XL Video Noise.jpg


#18 w1k OFFLINE  

w1k

    Stargunner

  • 1,669 posts
  • Location:martin, slovakia

Posted Wed Dec 7, 2011 9:01 AM

Do you test on CRT or LCD?

#19 Larry OFFLINE  

Larry

    River Patroller

  • Topic Starter
  • 4,083 posts
  • Location:U.S. -- Midwest

Posted Wed Dec 7, 2011 11:31 AM

LCD. It is through an "All In Wonder" video card that has multiple inputs for composite, S-Video, etc. But all my Atari's use the same PC display.

-Larry

Do you test on CRT or LCD?



#20 w1k OFFLINE  

w1k

    Stargunner

  • 1,669 posts
  • Location:martin, slovakia

Posted Wed Dec 7, 2011 11:39 AM

hmm, thats it - different atari, different screen :/

#21 GoodByteXL OFFLINE  

GoodByteXL

    Moonsweeper

  • 339 posts
  • Location:XL heaven

Posted Wed Dec 7, 2011 12:04 PM

3rd question -- has anyone ever seen/done a "block diagram" of the 600XL video similar to those for the 800XL and 130XE ...

Thisone should do http://www.dereatari...pl/schematy.htm

#22 sloopy OFFLINE  

sloopy

    River Patroller

  • 2,424 posts
  • lookin for bits, i like bits...
  • Location:in my cave of despair, surrounded by toys...

Posted Wed Dec 7, 2011 12:16 PM

This is probably artifacting from the conversion process, you are taking an analog 60 fields per/sec image, and changing it into a digital 30 frames per/sec video (in the all-in-wonder), and then outputting it to a device with a resolution that isnt evenly divisable with the source... Every LCD display i have seen where you use a CVBS/S-Vid/RGB input with a 'NTSC style' signal has this issue to some degree...

This LCD TV i have, which has a usable display when used with TV, but horrible display when used with any type of computer (it has CVBS, S-Vid, and VGA inputs), is about the worst i have ever seen (and i am sure there is worse tho)...
LCDtv1.jpg
LCD800XL-1.jpg
these are vertical artifacts, where as yours are horizontal, but probably the same... The 800XL used has the supervideo upgrade, with the composite disabled, and on my Sony Trinitron Pro Series CRT's, the image is rock solid, and pure video pron ;')

sloopy.

#23 Gunstar OFFLINE  

Gunstar

    Gunstar

  • 10,055 posts
  • Location:Kellyville, Oklahoma

Posted Wed Dec 7, 2011 12:42 PM

Hi Rich-

Which desolderer did you get? The iron with a bulb on it to "suck?" (I've seen that model in RS before.)

I've been using braid, and found it makes a heck of a difference what braid you use. I ran out and bought some from Radio Shack, and it was essentially "solder-repellent!" I've gotten the "good stuff" from BG-Micro (Velleman is the brand). The strands are finer and more densely packed than the RS.

Good luck with SV2.1, and do let us know how it comes out.

-Larry


the best kit is a mod designed by Jeff Popp, and it basically just populates the parts that are silkscreened in there, but were installed... the big benefit of this, the machine is exactly like a 800XL... it gives full composite and RF capabilities... this has been discussed here...

http://www.atariage....ost__p__2122290

I edited a pic of the area where the parts go, with them all labeled... there might be one or two more below the pic tho.. those and removing the channel 3-4 switch and putting the 5pin DIN AV jack is all there is to it. i have only done one Best/Popp upgrade and it was on that 600XL from Syfo. I have a full Popp kit from Best as people have wanted me to do the upgrade on their machines, but all of them have decided to go with the simple upgrade instead, as its much cheaper installed from me (Popp-$22, Sumrall-$15).

sloopy.


I can't seem to find the Jeff Popp instructions. So I'm going with the Super Video 2.1 upgrade for my 600XL. Thanks to a little chiding by Sloopy I broke down and purchased a radio shack desolder. My deslodering skills installantly skyrocketed. My current status is I've desoldered everything and have populated the first four components. I added one of those funky hat / magnifying glasses / light to my setup and I am very happy.

I'm not to hopeful that my efforts will prove succesfull. I KNOW I've desoldered off footpads and am not to certain I haven't cut a trace by accident. But one has to learn. Plus I scored an inbox 600XL from Ebay for $9.99 with joystick and three carts.


I do my desoldering with braid too, and I too have found good and bad braid. Recently however, I ran out of my "good" braid and had to resort to the "solder-repellent" braid. What I found is that most any braid, good or bad, will work well if you first dip/cover the braid in solder flux paste, then the bad braid sucks the solder up every bit as well as good braid.

#24 Larry OFFLINE  

Larry

    River Patroller

  • Topic Starter
  • 4,083 posts
  • Location:U.S. -- Midwest

Posted Wed Dec 7, 2011 1:41 PM

That's a very good idea! I had not thought of using flux with the braid.

Since I originally wrote about the braid, I got my Hakko 808 desoldering pump. Admittedly pretty expensive (~$200), but it puts desoldering in a whole different realm for me. When I'm done now, you can't even tell I worked on it!

-Larry


I do my desoldering with braid too, and I too have found good and bad braid. Recently however, I ran out of my "good" braid and had to resort to the "solder-repellent" braid. What I found is that most any braid, good or bad, will work well if you first dip/cover the braid in solder flux paste, then the bad braid sucks the solder up every bit as well as good braid.
(snip...)



#25 sloopy OFFLINE  

sloopy

    River Patroller

  • 2,424 posts
  • lookin for bits, i like bits...
  • Location:in my cave of despair, surrounded by toys...

Posted Wed Dec 7, 2011 2:48 PM

Hi Rich- Which desolderer did you get? The iron with a bulb on it to "suck?" (I've seen that model in RS before.) I've been using braid, and found it makes a heck of a difference what braid you use. I ran out and bought some from Radio Shack, and it was essentially "solder-repellent!" I've gotten the "good stuff" from BG-Micro (Velleman is the brand). The strands are finer and more densely packed than the RS. Good luck with SV2.1, and do let us know how it comes out. -Larry

the best kit is a mod designed by Jeff Popp, and it basically just populates the parts that are silkscreened in there, but were installed... the big benefit of this, the machine is exactly like a 800XL... it gives full composite and RF capabilities... this has been discussed here... http://www.atariage....ost__p__2122290 I edited a pic of the area where the parts go, with them all labeled... there might be one or two more below the pic tho.. those and removing the channel 3-4 switch and putting the 5pin DIN AV jack is all there is to it. i have only done one Best/Popp upgrade and it was on that 600XL from Syfo. I have a full Popp kit from Best as people have wanted me to do the upgrade on their machines, but all of them have decided to go with the simple upgrade instead, as its much cheaper installed from me (Popp-$22, Sumrall-$15). sloopy.

I can't seem to find the Jeff Popp instructions. So I'm going with the Super Video 2.1 upgrade for my 600XL. Thanks to a little chiding by Sloopy I broke down and purchased a radio shack desolder. My deslodering skills installantly skyrocketed. My current status is I've desoldered everything and have populated the first four components. I added one of those funky hat / magnifying glasses / light to my setup and I am very happy. I'm not to hopeful that my efforts will prove succesfull. I KNOW I've desoldered off footpads and am not to certain I haven't cut a trace by accident. But one has to learn. Plus I scored an inbox 600XL from Ebay for $9.99 with joystick and three carts.

I do my desoldering with braid too, and I too have found good and bad braid. Recently however, I ran out of my "good" braid and had to resort to the "solder-repellent" braid. What I found is that most any braid, good or bad, will work well if you first dip/cover the braid in solder flux paste, then the bad braid sucks the solder up every bit as well as good braid.


copper is copper... the only difference between various braids is the flux on them, add decent flux to any braided copper (even stranded wire with the plastic stripped off), and you have decent desoldering braid...

sloopy.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: 600xl, video, upgrade

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users