New Pinball Arcade from makers of Williams Collection

[Andromeda Stardust]

Any word on further disc releases for the PS4? I like that season one saw a retail release and would like to see more such releases.

They'll probably all be DLC after that.

[Atariboy]

I know how it probably will play out, but I was asking if anyone had heard otherwise about further retail releases (Expand that to any platform... I'd be more than willing to platform hop if it meant getting subsequent seasons on optical disc).

Edited October 23, 2014 by Atariboy

[Rex Dart]

Lloyd's likeness may not be secured. This will mean altered backglass and voice samples to scrub his likeness from the table.

 

Say it ain't so!

 

[Andromeda Stardust]

That's about as dumb as T2 without Arnold.

 

Well, looks like it will officially be the last kickstarter table I back. They got their money, didn't fulfill their promises.

Edited October 23, 2014 by stardust4ever

[HammR25]

That's about as dumb as T2 without Arnold.

 

Well, looks like it will officially be the last kickstarter table I back. They got their money, didn't fulfill their promises.

 

What promises? They were upfront in their Kickstarter video that Christopher Lloyd wasn't going to be part of the game. They never claimed they got an agreement with any stretch goals either. At least you'll be able to play it on your Ouya while other people are waiting for it on their 360s , PS3s, PS4s and Xbones.

[LynxVGL]

I'm a big fan of Farsights work. The Pinball Arcade on iPad may be the best tactile recreation of the pinball experience save actually playing on a a table. Saying that... Their LATEST table is "Ghostbusters". It's NOT part of their regular series, and is a stand alone. A stand alone that is Free to Play a few times, and then you have to pay for tokens. Yup, in app purchases to keep playing pinball. It's business decision that I find insulting. I hope they do not continue down the in-app path.

[+save2600]

So will the Addams Family mark the first entry in TPA that will NOT be fully licensed and official?

 

I don't understand this aspect of the business... leaving out voice samples, photos or the likeness of something (in this case, Lloyd) of stuff that was bought and paid for by Williams decades ago. Unless these things were leased originally, the whole scenario just seems unreasonable to me. Then again, so does the cost of this particular kickstarter.

[TwinChargers]

So will the Addams Family mark the first entry in TPA that will NOT be fully licensed and official?

 

I don't understand this aspect of the business... leaving out voice samples, photos or the likeness of something (in this case, Lloyd) of stuff that was bought and paid for by Williams decades ago. Unless these things were leased originally, the who scenario just seems unreasonable to me. Then again, so does the cost of this particular kickstarter.

 

I'm confused, is it Christopher Lloyd himself that doesn't want his likeness portrayed? That seems rather bizarre to me. I wonder how much money he was offered or if he just couldn't be bought? You would think Farsight would have looked into this prior to making the table.

 

I've maybe played the table two or three times in my youth so I won't know the difference, but for a fan I could see where it could be jarring.

[+FujiSkunk]

I don't understand this aspect of the business... leaving out voice samples, photos or the likeness of something (in this case, Lloyd) of stuff that was bought and paid for by Williams decades ago. Unless these things were leased originally, the who scenario just seems unreasonable to me. Then again, so does the cost of this particular kickstarter.

 

Williams didn't buy anything; they licensed everything necessary to make the original pinball table. You could call them "leases," though leases deal more with tangible goods like cars and houses, while licenses deal more with intangible goods like software, music, people's likenesses, and so forth.

 

Licenses are seldom intended to be permanent. Usually they are granted for a set period of time, typically a matter of years, or for a set amount of some resource, for example the 250-cartridge license for Atari 2600 Boulder Dash. These "finite" licenses are more attractive because permanent licenses usually cost a whole lot more, and often a company only needs a license for a short amount of time anyway.

 

To create a pinball table for The Addams Family, Williams needed permission from a lot of different people or entities: the creators of the movie, the authors of the original TV theme song, the estate of Charles Addams or whoever owns the rights to the original "Addams Family," the estate of Raul Julia, Anjelica Huston, Christopher Lloyd, Christina Ricci, Jimmy Workman, and possibly other entities I haven't thought of. Some of these bits perhaps could be licensed together from a single entity, such as permission to make reference to the movie and permission to use the original theme song (it's possible Paramount owns both, but I'm not a lawyer nor a Paramount employee, so don't take my word for it), but even then they are still separate bits, each with its own fee. Licensing all those different bits was going to be expensive enough even without seeking permanent licenses, and Williams likely determined they wouldn't be manufacturing Addams Family pinball tables for more than a few years. Had they anticipated the table's overwhelming success, and had they anticipated the rise of emulation and a market for virtual recreations of old arcade games and pinball tables, perhaps they would sought permanent licenses. Of course, that would have required a foresight no person or company truly has, and it's possible the license holders wouldn't have granted permanent licenses even if Williams asked for them. Intellectual property owners guard their holdings very jealously, like Smaug and his mountains of gold.

 

This tangled mess is happening everywhere nowadays, not just in video games and pinball tables. One of the most famous examples is the TV show "WKRP in Cincinatti." The originally show used a lot of then-contemporary music by some very big names in rock and pop. Every last one of those songs required its own license. This lead to two amusing, and amusingly sad, situations. One, the show was recorded on videotape instead of higher-quality film stock, partly because music licensing was actually cheaper for videotaped shows! Two, with practically no home video market for old TV shows, and even the market for reruns still relatively soft, the producers of the show opted for finite licenses to keep everything in budget. Sure enough, when the show became a hit, particularly in syndication, those finite licenses presented a challenge. When they finally did run out, the show owners were faced with renegotiating licenses, often for songs that had since become even more valuable; not broadcasting the show at all; or ripping all that music out and replacing it with safe "generic" music. At first the show owners opted for the latter, and reruns in the '90s, along with the first DVD release of Season 1, were neutered for the sake of legalities. Fans were outraged, and plans to release the rest of the show on DVD were abandoned. More recently, the nostalgia marketeers known as Shout Factory took it upon themselves to try and license everything they could for the sake of preserving the show and creating proper DVD releases. Like Farsight with The Addams Family, Shout Factory mostly succeeded, but again, some bits were just a little too far out of reach.

 

And by the way, you can bet your life both Farsight and Shout Factory negotatied for finite licenses. If you really like those products, you better grab them while they're available. Or you can wait and see if some future company has better luck. It's up to you.

[+save2600]

Guess I would have just thought that whatever licensing Williams needed to procure originally for TAF, would have been translated over to TPA version of it. Seems to be the case for all the rest of the tables being reproduced. No?

 

Didn't read anything funky like this regarding Bram Stoker's Dracula for instance. LOTS of similar dealings and "expired" licensing (if that's truly the case) going on there for sure.

 

It's a murky legal/business mess to be sure. Think of all the rest of the tables and backglass artwork that could potentially be a problem or were already ironed out?? Cassandra Peterson for both of "her" machines? Entire Star Trek Next Generation cast, so on and so forth.

 

Heck, even thinking about the Hubble telescope on the playfield of Space Shuttle and the Space Shuttle itself. Did the team of designers of either, need to be contacted before Farsight could reproduce and use them?

[Atariboy]

Been following the WKRP saga at the Home Theater Forum, which is indeed an excellent example of the issues that licensing can cause when something unforseen is rereleased down the road (The recently released China Beach and The Wonder Years from Time Life posed similar challenges).

 

It's nice that Shout was able to secure about 80% of the music, with most of what was cut being inconsequential. No Pink Floyd barking dogs in a popular scene is a notable omission, but only 4 or 5 episodes are missing anything substantial that really affects them.

 

So will the Addams Family mark the first entry in TPA that will NOT be fully licensed and official?

It's my understanding that at least one Pinball Arcade table previous to this has had some minor sound edits when a license couldn't be secured. So The Addams Family isn't the first time this has happened.

 

It's my understanding that this particular edit is going to be extremely trivial, so it seems a shame if a fan lets this hinder their enjoyment of Pinball Arcade and this upcoming table release.

 

Heck, even thinking about the Hubble telescope on the playfield of Space Shuttle and the Space Shuttle itself. Did the team of designers of either, need to be contacted before Farsight could reproduce and use them?

Aircraft designs are officially licensed these days in videogames, so it's not as crazy as it sounds.

 

Licensing has even reared its ugly head in model railroading, railroad literature, etc. If you use something like Union Pacific's logo without permission, you run the risk of getting a cease & desist letter as they've sought to protect their image and profit off use of it (And names and logos that long since disappeared that they've inherited via purchases and mergers).

Edited October 27, 2014 by Atariboy

[+FujiSkunk]

Guess I would have just thought that whatever licensing Williams needed to procure originally for TAF, would have been translated over to TPA version of it. Seems to be the case for all the rest of the tables being reproduced. No?

The majority of the tables released so far were original designs that were not based on movies, TV shows or other pop culture, and so the only intellectual property that had to be covered was for the creation of the table itself. However, the other tables that were based on pop culture, including Terminator 2: Judgment Day, Twilight Zone and Star Trek: The Next Generation did require additional licensing hurdles similar to those of The Addams Family. In fact, all three of those other tables had their own Kickstarter projects to cover upfront licensing costs. The Addams Family has had some extra press due in part to its popularity and the fact they might not get a perfect recreation due to Christopher Lloyd holding out.

 

Didn't read anything funky like this regarding Bram Stoker's Dracula for instance. LOTS of similar dealings and "expired" licensing (if that's truly the case) going on there for sure.

Admittedly I'm not very familiar with that pinball table, so I'm not sure what all was involved. It's possible a license was needed only for references to the movie, depending on how closely the images of characters look like the actors that were in the movie. To compare, there was a pinball tie-in for Johnny Mnemonic, the Keanu Reeves movie, but it is debatable whether you would need Keanu Reeves's permission to recreate the table. The game does not use his voice and the image of Johnny Mnemonic on the table itself does not bear much resemblence to Keanu Reeves, though the image on the backglass does look more like him.

 

It's also possible the licenses for Dracula were easier to come by, so Farsight didn't see a need to ask for funding up front. Or, maybe Dracula was the first "lesson learned" that showed them they better put their ducks in a row ahead of time for future high-dollar tables.

 

Heck, even thinking about the Hubble telescope on the playfield of Space Shuttle and the Space Shuttle itself. Did the team of designers of either, need to be contacted before Farsight could reproduce and use them?

Probably not the designers, since they were likely creating "works for hire" while contracted by NASA. However, NASA's permission may have been required.

 

 

It's my understanding that this particular edit is going to be extremely trivial, so it seems a shame if a fan lets this hinder their enjoyment of Pinball Arcade and this upcoming table release.

Yes, there is only one soundbite by Christopher Lloyd in the original game, and I'm certain it would be easy to change his likeness in the table's artwork while still preserving the look of Uncle Fester.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Probably not the designers, since they were likely creating "works for hire" while contracted by NASA. However, NASA's permission may have been required.

 

Most non-classified works by the US government are released to public domain. There's literally hours of footage of atomic blasts for example, though finding them in HD may prove difficult. Most of the samples provided on .gov websites are highly compressed 320x240p Mpeg-1 videos in *.mpg format, likely designed for pre-broadband days when everyone was still running Windows 95 on a Pentium MMX with dial up modem.

 

As for NASA, much of what they've photographed is released into the public domain. Google Earth is free because the low resolution photos taken by satellites are public domain. Hi-res photos from spy satellites remain classified. The main exception to PD imagery is that certain Hubble photos of various interstellar objects may be commissioned by various astronomical organizations and thus not owned by the government but by the entities that contracted them.

 

Truthfully, if a photo of the Hubble exists in public domain, then an artists interpretation of such a photo would also be covered. However, the NASA logo, if present, is covered by trademark laws, not copyright, so it may need minor licensing. Needless to say, if such licensing were required to port a table like Space Shuttle, it would be a drop in the bucket compared to other premium licenses.

 

Then there are other licensed tables such as Elvira or Harley Davidson, which likely cost very little. Elvira is an avid pinball fan so of course she's cool with it, and stuff like the Harley Davidson table is practically free advertising for the company. If a company like McDonalds or Coca-Cola had released a themed table back in the day, they'd probably be happy to see it ported too.

Edited October 28, 2014 by stardust4ever

[LynxVGL]

For the recent "Watchdogs" that attempted to re-create Chicago in a digital form, many of the real buildings could not be used do to licensing issues. So yeah, licensing goes much further than many people realize. Regarding "Addams Family", I think some of this is legal wrangling that causes headaches. Lloyds likeness was most likely licensed for the actual Pinball Table, but since this technically is a video game, there is a different layer of licensing to wrangle with. Bally only had a target of twenty some thousand physical machines to build, while the possible number of TPA titles and sales could theoretically go into the millions. Or at a minimum a possible purchase potential on what, 5 platforms that will most likely far exceed 20,000 copies. That wrangling is where the devil is in the details.

[Andromeda Stardust]

For the recent "Watchdogs" that attempted to re-create Chicago in a digital form, many of the real buildings could not be used do to licensing issues. So yeah, licensing goes much further than many people realize. Regarding "Addams Family", I think some of this is legal wrangling that causes headaches. Lloyds likeness was most likely licensed for the actual Pinball Table, but since this technically is a video game, there is a different layer of licensing to wrangle with. Bally only had a target of twenty some thousand physical machines to build, while the possible number of TPA titles and sales could theoretically go into the millions. Or at a minimum a possible purchase potential on what, 5 platforms that will most likely far exceed 20,000 copies. That wrangling is where the devil is in the details.

Or consider the fact that pinballs cost thousands a piece, the licensing may have been cheap for the company at the time. Compare that to $5 downloads all day long...

[ComputerSpaceFan]

By the way, Dracula and Diner just came out for PS3 (and I assume 4?)

I played Dracula at PRGE and I gotta say FarSight's version seems kinda dull and bland compared to the real thing. I'm surprised too cuz their other tables tend to be great renditions but Dracula is sorta plain to me. Am I alone?

 

The good news is Diner is awesome!

[Austin]

I played Dracula at PRGE and I gotta say FarSight's version seems kinda dull and bland compared to the real thing.

 

That pretty much sums up all of their recreations.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

That pretty much sums up all of their recreations.

I played Bride of Pinbot and Attack From Mars at the Texas Pinball Fest, and both tables were spot on compared to TPA.

[Austin]

I played Bride of Pinbot and Attack From Mars at the Texas Pinball Fest, and both tables were spot on compared to TPA.

 

Clearly you need some glasses (or a new pair if you already have them).

[TwinChargers]

The thing that stinks is that all the tables for season 3 are out right now, and on the game it says the season pass is available, but currently at the PlayStation store the bundle isn't even an option so I'm still stuck with nothing. I'd love to buy the season pass if it was made available but unfortunately somewhere the ball was dropped. Frustrated!!

[boog]

I was considering the PSN season 3 pass yesterday, along with a couple other games, to reach the 'spend $100 get $15 back' October PSN promotion... then I realized that there is no season 3 pass even though the full season is now available. Further evidence that the lack of season pass isn't because of Apple policy, just Farsight greed as they try to attract single table buyers for table packs 29 & 30.

 

Also, there are still no new tables for PS4. PS4 is currently up to table pack 26 for season three. PS4 season two is still on hold until after the xbone release.

 

Don't know why I even bother following Pinball Arcade news anymore. Disappointment after disappointment. I won't even give them $30 for the mediocre season three at this point... I'll wait for a sale/promotion just so that I pay them as little as possible.

[+save2600]

Are they not just behind? Surely they'll have a Season 3 deal… after some time?

[boog]

Farsight's explanation (excuse?) for ending the season pass was that Apple required all content to be available for download before offering a bundled price... no bundles that include future content. Farsight decided to extend this policy to all platforms. As of yesterday, all of the season 3 tables have been released for PS3/Vita but still no season pass.

[+save2600]

Does sound like an idiotic and/or greedy policy change then. Oh well. Hopefully sales will be slow enough to where they'll pull their heads out of their ass and offer a season pass again.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Yeah there's no reason not too if all of the tables are now currently available. I nabbed Season 3 pass on Ouya last December before it was discontinued. Early bird gets the worm. Of course it was never made available for PSN for any lenght of tiem prior to the policy change.