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#26 LinkoVitch OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:52 PM

why don't people who develop for the Jag try for something great? I'm not being a hater , but (oops!) these homebrews are not exactly pushing the Jag hardware, not even a little bit.


Nothing is stopping you! go for it!

What would you consider 'pushing the Jag hardware' ? And what is the point? People pushing the fun is much more preferential, be that for them or for the people playing/using what they produce.

Also these homebrew devs (myself included) don't do this as a job, this means it can take quite a chunk of time to get something done, even what you may consider a simple game can take months. I have been working on just my Sound Engine for months, it has a long way to go still, and that's just code to make noise! You also need code to draw the screen, and manage the gameplay, you need to tweak things like gameplay to make it fun, which can be a lot of small tweaks and adjustments. Even just looking at the code, writing, testing, debugging for a simple project can take a single person an age.. not even including graphics or sound or other game content in that.

#27 Zerosquare OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:08 PM

why don't people who develop for the Jag try for something great? I'm not being a hater , but (oops!) these homebrews are not exactly pushing the Jag hardware, not even a little bit.

In the context of DrTypo's game, it makes as much sense as criticizing someone for not running a marathon when they've just started exercising last week.

Edited by Zerosquare, Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:09 PM.


#28 rush6432 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:09 PM

Agree with linkovitch's statement 100 percent.

If you saw what goes into making a game like this you would realize its quite a bit of effort. its not necessarily extremely difficult to throw images/objects around on the screen its just getting it to work properly and the amount of other housekeeping that has to go on in the background to keep the jag running as it should. optimizing and managing memory as well.

I Know for myself i mainly see code ive written and often realize its crap and that i could rewrite it to perform better and be more efficient and thus i do that which adds more time to the development process. debugging or fixing coding issues is a HUGE One that eats time as well.

Its not as simple or straight forward as most seem to think. While its not the most difficult thing in the world its not the easiest.

Edited by rush6432, Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:10 PM.


#29 so_tough! OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:20 PM

It takes too much time to develop something that pushes the hardware when you are working full time on that project. It takes a lot more time when you do it on your spare time. And at some point instead of a fun thing to do, it becomes another boring and stressful job.


What's the point then? I've seen a bunch of homebrews that would actually be better on the 2600 or 7800. If you're not going to actually use the hardware, theres no point. It's better to make one great game, than ten blah ones.

http://www.ngdevteam.com/

(how it should be done)

Edited by so_tough!, Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:21 PM.


#30 Christos OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:23 PM

Please show us the way and follow their example.

btw: http://ubuntuforums....ad.php?t=689178

#31 so_tough! OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:24 PM

why don't people who develop for the Jag try for something great? I'm not being a hater , but (oops!) these homebrews are not exactly pushing the Jag hardware, not even a little bit.


Nothing is stopping you! go for it!

What would you consider 'pushing the Jag hardware' ? And what is the point? People pushing the fun is much more preferential, be that for them or for the people playing/using what they produce.

Also these homebrew devs (myself included) don't do this as a job, this means it can take quite a chunk of time to get something done, even what you may consider a simple game can take months. I have been working on just my Sound Engine for months, it has a long way to go still, and that's just code to make noise! You also need code to draw the screen, and manage the gameplay, you need to tweak things like gameplay to make it fun, which can be a lot of small tweaks and adjustments. Even just looking at the code, writing, testing, debugging for a simple project can take a single person an age.. not even including graphics or sound or other game content in that.


Something that I don't think, "they could have made this on 2600 or 7800 and it would have been better".

I know I'm not the only person who thinks like this and you know it really doesnt matter, it's just an observation.

Edited by so_tough!, Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:26 PM.


#32 sh3-rg OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:27 PM

http://www.ngdevteam.com/

(how it should be done)


About us

Development Team
NG:DEV.TEAM



Location
Germany



Type of Business
Registered trade / private owned business
Commercial Independent Video Game Development Studio


so_tough!
Pointless Hate Fail.

#33 so_tough! OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:31 PM

http://www.ngdevteam.com/

(how it should be done)


About us

Development Team
NG:DEV.TEAM



Location
Germany



Type of Business
Registered trade / private owned business
Commercial Independent Video Game Development Studio


How about working together on a project? It's GOOD that people are working on Jag stuff, but I think if you guys worked together you could make something really cool, even if it takes years.

It's not a hate fail at all, I remember having this sort of conversation with Gorf by the way. What's the point in making a neo geo game it it looks like a nes game? Do you see my point? Look, keep doing whatever you're doing, I'm just making an observation. Opinion, not hate.

Edited by so_tough!, Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:35 PM.


#34 ls650 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:32 PM

why don't people who develop for the Jag try for something great?

Instead of complaining, maybe you should show the rest of us how it's done..?

#35 LinkoVitch OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:33 PM

Something that I don't think, "they could have made this on 2600 or 7800 and it would have been better".

I know I'm not the only person who thinks like this and you know it really doesnt matter, it's just an observation.


Simple, don't play them if you don't like them. Clearly you don't get the point of writing a homebrew game, or understand how these machines actually work, OR what constitues pushing a system.

I'd suggest you try writing something yourself, maybe then you would understand why we do it. Or the limited resources with what we produce what we do. Also every "simple game" that is released the developer of that learns something, perhaps even tries something new, their next game will quite likely be better.

I am sure the majority of people like seeing these small fun games on a platform they have. The developer learns and the games get better, I am sure people would rather these smaller games rather than 10+ years of nothing before a single game pops up.

#36 LinkoVitch OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:36 PM

How about working together on a project? It's GOOD that people are working on Jag stuff, but I think if you guys worked together you could make something really cool, even if it takes years.


WHAT! and work with these weirdos and freaks! :D

I'd have to share the stuff I wrote! ... oh wait.... :D

#37 so_tough! OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:41 PM

why don't people who develop for the Jag try for something great?

Instead of complaining, maybe you should show the rest of us how it's done..?


I'll happily help you out with some music if possible, but I can't program and don't intend to start. I'd also have to be part of a team, like I suggested.

Anyway, let's not make this thread go mental. It's my opinion, no more, no less. Chill .

It's an opinion, not an attack, remember that! It's good that you are making games, it's good to be creative, but I'm sure if you got together you could really create something great.

Oh yeah and apologies if some people took it as an attack, its not and if you read my posts you will see that. Oh yeah and this is coming from a creative person who has destroyed hours of music in some wacko artistic temperament thing.

I don't see the point in creating, if it's not great, maybe that will help you with where I'm coming from.

Edited by so_tough!, Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:08 PM.


#38 Jag_Slave OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:13 PM

Lets not forget how much time it takes the game artists to create backgrounds, characters, menus, icons, optical illusions, color palettes, animations, sketches, art, box art and more.

BlackOut is a simple example. We have been building this game part time since last summer, but the original build is from 2009. (with just a coder and an artist) We still have a few months to go- and thats just a simple game.
So DO THE MATH, imagine how long it would take to make a game to the Caliber of BattleMorph etc...

We are all on different "DEV" teams, but help each other at times.
To have 20 artists, 20 coders etc would PROBABLY slow us down, cause arguments, different styles of art, game play, and ideas, that would constantly conflict or change.
Minimal sized teams have the benefit of faster decision making, quicker communication etc.
Large groups are still beneficial to discussions and problem solving- which we already do well as a dev community.
We talk to Jagware, Reboot, Matthias, Linko, Owl, and every other group out there- for troubleshooting and release info, etc ... But see no need to have all of them in StormWorks just as they see no need to bring us into one of their teams. Although neither idea is ever out of the question.

#39 so_tough! OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:16 PM

Lets not forget how much time it takes the game artists to create backgrounds, characters, menus, icons, optical illusions, color palettes, animations, sketches, art, box art and more.

BlackOut is a simple example. We have been building this game part time since last summer, but the original build is from 2009. (with just a coder and an artist) We still have a few months to go- and thats just a simple game.
So DO THE MATH, imagine how long it would take to make a game to the Caliber of BattleMorph etc...

We are all on different "DEV" teams, but help each other at times.
To have 20 artists, 20 coders etc would PROBABLY slow us down, cause arguments, different styles of art, game play, and ideas, that would constantly conflict or change.
Minimal sized teams have the benefit of faster decision making, quicker communication etc.
Large groups are still beneficial to discussions and problem solving- which we already do well as a dev community.
We talk to Jagware, Reboot, Matthias, Linko, Owl, and every other group out there- for troubleshooting and release info, etc ... But see no need to have all of them in StormWorks just as they see no need to bring us into one of their teams. Although neither idea is ever out of the question.


Well maybe I'm just being naive about how it could work? Very possibly :)

#40 sh3-rg OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:37 PM

Lets not forget how much time it takes the game artists to create backgrounds, characters, menus, icons, optical illusions, color palettes, animations, sketches, art, box art and more.


Never forget the artists! \o/ :D \o/

You make good points about numbers - you can have too many people on a project, people get in each others' way, others get lazy & leave stuff to someone else, people want to be doing the 'fun' stuff and not the tedious behind-the-scenes stuff... it can be much worse. You can't just throw people at things like this and expect everything to speed up by magnitudes.

The best way people could come together to do stuff is maybe something like all contribute a small game to a multi-game CD, but I don't really see the point unless it was done as a competition or event... and we're all busy enough with our own stuff as it is.

#41 CyranoJ OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:48 PM

There is a huge 'behind the scene' collaboration going on already that you probably don't see. The entire Reboot/Jagware/u-235 team regularly help each other out with stuff when are where we can.

There are also many, many PM conversations between 'us devs' (from pretty much all the teams) on many topics, even cross platform to the other consoles. It's not as individualised as you might think.

#42 skip OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:18 PM

Just to get the conversation somewhat back on track, it's a fun little game. Pretty good for a first effort! Good difficulty progression, but I find the characters objects are a little large and the attack 'patterns' are pretty mean given the object sizes. Still, especially for small little games, gotta make it tougher for the average joe to progress.

In my mind I can see that this game would benefit from slightly smaller sprites, continued refinement of difficulty progression and attack patterns (they're probably already more refined than Trevor McFur, haha), perhaps go for a retro pixel art inspired aesthetic with maybe some subtle visual feedback effects (see Jeff Minter's recent iOS games), maybe some pixelated shatter type explosions or scaling / transparency.

Which leads me to think out loud, and this is probably a discussion best saved for in depth exploration for somewhere else, but what I'd personally like to see in the homebrew arena is a bit more of an 'edgy' or modern design aesthetic. Think the Native demo from a visual design point of view (not the coding), or perhaps a style that apes modern web design aesthetics...or, hell, think of the games that 'borrowed' the Designers Republic (Wipeout) style from the 90s. I think that many of the homebrews that I've seen over the years could look so much 'better' (or at least more modern) with little to no more coding required, though the file sizes could obviously end up bigger.

Of course I could be talking out of my arse and what I'm suggesting could make it more difficult (and hell, my personal graphic/web design stuff is, at best, derivative of other professionals' work, so I'm not talking as an authority on the matter).

#43 JagChris OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:35 PM

why don't people who develop for the Jag try for something great? I'm not being a hater , but (oops!) these homebrews are not exactly pushing the Jag hardware, not even a little bit.


We all know what you're saying and in an ideal world we'd all want the Jaguar developers to release by release, push their skill farther. Both in coding on the Jaguar and in making great gameplay. Best way to do that would be to support the ones we have with positive reinforcement. And patience.

#44 JagChris OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:36 PM

Something that I don't think, "they could have made this on 2600 or 7800 and it would have been better".

I know I'm not the only person who thinks like this and you know it really doesnt matter, it's just an observation.


Simple, don't play them if you don't like them. Clearly you don't get the point of writing a homebrew game, or understand how these machines actually work, OR what constitues pushing a system.

I'd suggest you try writing something yourself, maybe then you would understand why we do it. Or the limited resources with what we produce what we do. Also every "simple game" that is released the developer of that learns something, perhaps even tries something new, their next game will quite likely be better.

I am sure the majority of people like seeing these small fun games on a platform they have. The developer learns and the games get better, I am sure people would rather these smaller games rather than 10+ years of nothing before a single game pops up.


Also Linkovitch is pushing forward towards the ideal you are hoping for with his sound engine. As far as I can tell there has never been as good a sound engine available for the public as Linkovitch has released. Having a great sound engine will be one more step forward in getting the most out of the Jaguar. SO SUPPORT HIM.

#45 JagChris OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:00 AM

Odd problem with shoot em up. When playing on an actual Jaguar, during gameplay I cannot see the score and lives tally at the top of the screen. Its just not there. I was grabbing a quick video of it and at first I thought it was a bug with my capture card. But when I played the video back I could see all these things. I can see them fine during gameplay on VJ. So I switched back to my regular TV. Still same problem. Cannot see the score, lives and level tally at the top of the screen while playing.

#46 JagChris OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:35 AM



#47 LinkoVitch OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:45 AM

Also Linkovitch is pushing forward towards the ideal you are hoping for with his sound engine. As far as I can tell there has never been as good a sound engine available for the public as Linkovitch has released. Having a great sound engine will be one more step forward in getting the most out of the Jaguar. SO SUPPORT HIM.


*blush* cheers ears

Odd problem with shoot em up. When playing on an actual Jaguar, during gameplay I cannot see the score and lives tally at the top of the screen. Its just not there. I was grabbing a quick video of it and at first I thought it was a bug with my capture card. But when I played the video back I could see all these things. I can see them fine during gameplay on VJ. So I switched back to my regular TV. Still same problem. Cannot see the score, lives and level tally at the top of the screen while playing.


Spotted this too, I suspect this is error I think everyone makes 1st time round :) Coding for a PAL Jag.. The NTSC systems have a lower screen height so when you code on a PAL unit you have more pixels to play with vertically, as soon as you fire up your game on an NTSC jag.. huge chunks of screen fall off the TV. Perhaps Shamoo can add emulation for this in VJ? My recommendation stick to 320x200 (or 640x400), either ignore the extra pixels in PAL mode or just add some extra art.

#48 CyranoJ OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:00 AM

Hehehe - been there, done that :) As linko said above, I think everyone does this.

#49 losbjer OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:14 AM

If anyone would want help to have graphics drawn, I would be happy to give it a shot! :)

#50 DrTypo OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:02 AM

Hello,

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I don't plan to work much more on this projet. However I'll adapt the screen size to 320x200 and make a few minor adjustement to the gameplay.
For those curious, the difficulty is maxed out at level 19. I did a few sessions at this level and I can barely keep up. I can survive for maybe 20 seconds. However since I'm not very good at shoot them ups I thought all the hardcore gamers here could manage the difficulty. :P
I'll release the full source code within a few days. People will be able to easily change the graphics and sounds. I think the code itself isn't very hard to understand (it's written in C language).




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